Frank Apisa wrote:RexRed wrote:Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9
Then who does the blessing and forgiving Frank, the devil?
Do you really think that God almighty is jealous of anything? You have been told this many times Frank remember Greenlee? She showed you your errors too... why don't you read ahead and show everyone here the scriptures that you are well aware of, but want to slant and spin... The scriptures regarding the mercy and goodness of God are of no value to you. Which
way do you seek out and value? You only want to show your one-sided hatred for the scriptures?
God did not attack Job, Job gave room for the devil to attack him because of the "fear" that he held within his heart toward the true God... Faith and fear are opposing forces... The devil showed that he was the one who "curses" people and it was God that after Job got his heart in the right place FAR exceeded the wealth that the devil was able to subtract from him. The devil has subtracted the same wealth from you...
Yet you cannot see the wisdom in these scriptures and the spiritual chaos for what it is worth. You are inflicted by the same spiritual blindness of the old testament people who were without
the new birth...
Doesn't that even mean anything to you or is your brain so singed that it must TOTALLY ignore the accomplishments, revelation and purpose of Christ? That to you his death was pure vanity? What was even his purpose if the old testament was the final word on salvation?
You would rather elevate your own self above the one true God and mock him with scriptures that depict the devil's part in the word. God said let there be light... (the prince of light) and you are blinded by this light.
You are not even trying to understand... you only want to continue to close your eyes to the spiritual depravity of the WORD. So YOU are equally to blame for the YOUR blindness of these scriptures because you perpetuate ONLY the WRONG WAY... YOU are simply an agent of the devils involvement in the scriptures by perpetuating his WORD/LIGHT...
Which God of the old testament is this scripture you have quoted referring to? The God of this world or the one true God? Which
way have you chosen Frank, the one that mocks the true God and leads to death of your own soul or the WAY that recognizes the truth and separates the devil from the true God?
The devil can be jealous and curse generations... YOUR errors are great.
You insist on the imperfection of law so you can continue to mock God. But you are not mocking God you are only showing to those who DO have the TRUE spirit of God born within that you are BLIND and that the spirit of God is in itself a PROOF of it's own power.
You are showing the IMPOSSIBILITY that someone who does not own, operate/manifest holy spirit CANNOT discern spirits. In your OWN ignorance and SPITE you prove the true God's WAY.
You see the old testament as all coming from the same God and you refer to this God as "the God of the Bible". You along with UNFORTUNATELY most Christians/Muslims/Jews do not differentiate between the TWO Gods...
You see many laws where Christ saw only two... You magnify the many laws so you can persecute "the God of the Bible" and perpetuate DIVISION from the true God...
You only show what a fool you are and you lower yourself to the level of the people you attempt to discredit... Then you become no more of a help to society than those you accuse of misleading society. You become the barbarian cartoon God that you seek to prosecute. You being completely unaware that the purpose of these scriptures are to reveal to those of enlightened spirit the gullibility of others and yourself. Thus the true God's power is magnified in your weakness.
As I have said before Frank, you cannot learn...
Ephesians 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the
riches of his glory, to be
strengthened with might
by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye,
being rooted and grounded in love,
18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ,
which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the
FULNESS OF GOD.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
RexRed wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:RexRed wrote:Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9
Then who does the blessing and forgiving Frank, the devil?
Do you really think that God almighty is jealous of anything? You have been told this many times Frank remember Greenlee? She showed you your errors too... why don't you read ahead and show everyone here the scriptures that you are well aware of, but want to slant and spin... The scriptures regarding the mercy and goodness of God are of no value to you. Which
way do you seek out and value? You only want to show your one-sided hatred for the scriptures?
God did not attack Job, Job gave room for the devil to attack him because of the "fear" that he held within his heart toward the true God... Faith and fear are opposing forces... The devil showed that he was the one who "curses" people and it was God that after Job got his heart in the right place FAR exceeded the wealth that the devil was able to subtract from him. The devil has subtracted the same wealth from you...
Yet you cannot see the wisdom in these scriptures and the spiritual chaos for what it is worth. You are inflicted by the same spiritual blindness of the old testament people who were without
the new birth...
Doesn't that even mean anything to you or is your brain so singed that it must TOTALLY ignore the accomplishments, revelation and purpose of Christ? That to you his death was pure vanity? What was even his purpose if the old testament was the final word on salvation?
You would rather elevate your own self above the one true God and mock him with scriptures that depict the devil's part in the word. God said let there be light... (the prince of light) and you are blinded by this light.
You are not even trying to understand... you only want to continue to close your eyes to the spiritual depravity of the WORD. So YOU are equally to blame for the YOUR blindness of these scriptures because you perpetuate ONLY the WRONG WAY... YOU are simply an agent of the devils involvement in the scriptures by perpetuating his WORD/LIGHT...
Which God of the old testament is this scripture you have quoted referring to? The God of this world or the one true God? Which
way have you chosen Frank, the one that mocks the true God and leads to death of your own soul or the WAY that recognizes the truth and separates the devil from the true God?
The devil can be jealous and curse generations... YOUR errors are great.
You insist on the imperfection of law so you can continue to mock God. But you are not mocking God you are only showing to those who DO have the TRUE spirit of God born within that you are BLIND and that the spirit of God is in itself a PROOF of it's own power.
You are showing the IMPOSSIBILITY that someone who does not own, operate/manifest holy spirit CANNOT discern spirits. In your OWN ignorance and SPITE you prove the true God's WAY.
You see the old testament as all coming from the same God and you refer to this God as "the God of the Bible". You along with UNFORTUNATELY most Christians/Muslims/Jews do not differentiate between the TWO Gods...
You see many laws where Christ saw only two... You magnify the many laws so you can persecute "the God of the Bible" and perpetuate DIVISION from the true God...
You only show what a fool you are and you lower yourself to the level of the people you attempt to discredit... Then you become no more of a help to society than those you accuse of misleading society. You become the barbarian cartoon God that you seek to prosecute. You being completely unaware that the purpose of these scriptures are to reveal to those of enlightened spirit the gullibility of others and yourself. Thus the true God's power is magnified in your weakness.
As I have said before Frank, you cannot learn...
Ephesians 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the
riches of his glory, to be
strengthened with might
by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye,
being rooted and grounded in love,
18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ,
which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the
FULNESS OF GOD.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
I really enjoy you (not specifically you, but christians in general) denouncing your OT god in one thread....yet in another you use his OT laws to further other agendas.
maporsche wrote:RexRed wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:RexRed wrote:Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9
Then who does the blessing and forgiving Frank, the devil?
Do you really think that God almighty is jealous of anything? You have been told this many times Frank remember Greenlee? She showed you your errors too... why don't you read ahead and show everyone here the scriptures that you are well aware of, but want to slant and spin... The scriptures regarding the mercy and goodness of God are of no value to you. Which
way do you seek out and value? You only want to show your one-sided hatred for the scriptures?
God did not attack Job, Job gave room for the devil to attack him because of the "fear" that he held within his heart toward the true God... Faith and fear are opposing forces... The devil showed that he was the one who "curses" people and it was God that after Job got his heart in the right place FAR exceeded the wealth that the devil was able to subtract from him. The devil has subtracted the same wealth from you...
Yet you cannot see the wisdom in these scriptures and the spiritual chaos for what it is worth. You are inflicted by the same spiritual blindness of the old testament people who were without
the new birth...
Doesn't that even mean anything to you or is your brain so singed that it must TOTALLY ignore the accomplishments, revelation and purpose of Christ? That to you his death was pure vanity? What was even his purpose if the old testament was the final word on salvation?
You would rather elevate your own self above the one true God and mock him with scriptures that depict the devil's part in the word. God said let there be light... (the prince of light) and you are blinded by this light.
You are not even trying to understand... you only want to continue to close your eyes to the spiritual depravity of the WORD. So YOU are equally to blame for the YOUR blindness of these scriptures because you perpetuate ONLY the WRONG WAY... YOU are simply an agent of the devils involvement in the scriptures by perpetuating his WORD/LIGHT...
Which God of the old testament is this scripture you have quoted referring to? The God of this world or the one true God? Which
way have you chosen Frank, the one that mocks the true God and leads to death of your own soul or the WAY that recognizes the truth and separates the devil from the true God?
The devil can be jealous and curse generations... YOUR errors are great.
You insist on the imperfection of law so you can continue to mock God. But you are not mocking God you are only showing to those who DO have the TRUE spirit of God born within that you are BLIND and that the spirit of God is in itself a PROOF of it's own power.
You are showing the IMPOSSIBILITY that someone who does not own, operate/manifest holy spirit CANNOT discern spirits. In your OWN ignorance and SPITE you prove the true God's WAY.
You see the old testament as all coming from the same God and you refer to this God as "the God of the Bible". You along with UNFORTUNATELY most Christians/Muslims/Jews do not differentiate between the TWO Gods...
You see many laws where Christ saw only two... You magnify the many laws so you can persecute "the God of the Bible" and perpetuate DIVISION from the true God...
You only show what a fool you are and you lower yourself to the level of the people you attempt to discredit... Then you become no more of a help to society than those you accuse of misleading society. You become the barbarian cartoon God that you seek to prosecute. You being completely unaware that the purpose of these scriptures are to reveal to those of enlightened spirit the gullibility of others and yourself. Thus the true God's power is magnified in your weakness.
As I have said before Frank, you cannot learn...
Ephesians 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the
riches of his glory, to be
strengthened with might
by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye,
being rooted and grounded in love,
18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ,
which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the
FULNESS OF GOD.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
I really enjoy you (not specifically you, but christians in general) denouncing your OT god in one thread....yet in another you use his OT laws to further other agendas.
Most Christians do use OT laws, ignorant of the revelation of Christ and Paul the Apostle... the only one who I know that spouts OT laws more than most Christians is Frank.
real life wrote:brahmin wrote:
i said "not negotiable" as in inevitable.. not whether they are absolutely right or absolutely wrong (as all your examples are).
Hi Flushd,
Since Brahmin seems to have missed the point here, I'll toss the ball to you.
How would you answer my questions regarding Absolutes of Right and Wrong?
how have i misse the point ?? have i not answered your question?
No one can describe the nature of Divine love. It is beyond the reach of even the best of poets. When one is still neck-deep in the water, one may be able to say a few words. The one who is completely immersed in the waters of Divine Love will be unable to speak anything about his experience. Those who speak about God in the world do so only from a superficial experience, but those who are wholly saturated with God's love will find no words to describe their bliss. That is why the Bible and other scriptures declare that the Divine is beyond the reach of the mind and speech.
real life wrote:brahmin wrote:there's just one thing thats absolute/non-negotiable in this world, common to everyone.
that we came naked, we will go naked.
and thats irrespective of which "spoke" we follow from rim to axle.
My question has more to do with Absolute Truth or Moral Absolutes.
If the only absolute in your view is death, are you saying that there is nothing that is Absolute in terms of right and wrong?
How about:
murder?
rape?
theft?
pedophilia ?
Would you describe any of these (or anything else) in Absolute terms as Wrong, as in "I believe that rape is wrong. Always. It's not a matter of opinion, or whether it's against a country's laws. It's just wrong."
Is there anything you would describe in Absolute terms as Right?
Do you believe in Absolutes?
If you do, can you tell us where these Absolutes come from?
It is my opinion that there are no absolutes in the areas which you raised.
And since you are a very active theist...I think it worthwhile to mention that EVEN IF THERE WERE...we certainly do not get them from your god.
Your god...the god of the Bible....certainly condones things like slavery, rape, murder, theft....under the right circumstances.
RexRed wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:RexRed wrote:Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9
Then who does the blessing and forgiving Frank, the devil?
Do you really think that God almighty is jealous of anything? You have been told this many times Frank remember Greenlee? She showed you your errors too... why don't you read ahead and show everyone here the scriptures that you are well aware of, but want to slant and spin... The scriptures regarding the mercy and goodness of God are of no value to you. Which
way do you seek out and value? You only want to show your one-sided hatred for the scriptures?
God did not attack Job, Job gave room for the devil to attack him because of the "fear" that he held within his heart toward the true God... Faith and fear are opposing forces... The devil showed that he was the one who "curses" people and it was God that after Job got his heart in the right place FAR exceeded the wealth that the devil was able to subtract from him. The devil has subtracted the same wealth from you...
Yet you cannot see the wisdom in these scriptures and the spiritual chaos for what it is worth. You are inflicted by the same spiritual blindness of the old testament people who were without
the new birth...
Doesn't that even mean anything to you or is your brain so singed that it must TOTALLY ignore the accomplishments, revelation and purpose of Christ? That to you his death was pure vanity? What was even his purpose if the old testament was the final word on salvation?
You would rather elevate your own self above the one true God and mock him with scriptures that depict the devil's part in the word. God said let there be light... (the prince of light) and you are blinded by this light.
You are not even trying to understand... you only want to continue to close your eyes to the spiritual depravity of the WORD. So YOU are equally to blame for the YOUR blindness of these scriptures because you perpetuate ONLY the WRONG WAY... YOU are simply an agent of the devils involvement in the scriptures by perpetuating his WORD/LIGHT...
Which God of the old testament is this scripture you have quoted referring to? The God of this world or the one true God? Which
way have you chosen Frank, the one that mocks the true God and leads to death of your own soul or the WAY that recognizes the truth and separates the devil from the true God?
The devil can be jealous and curse generations... YOUR errors are great.
You insist on the imperfection of law so you can continue to mock God. But you are not mocking God you are only showing to those who DO have the TRUE spirit of God born within that you are BLIND and that the spirit of God is in itself a PROOF of it's own power.
You are showing the IMPOSSIBILITY that someone who does not own, operate/manifest holy spirit CANNOT discern spirits. In your OWN ignorance and SPITE you prove the true God's WAY.
You see the old testament as all coming from the same God and you refer to this God as "the God of the Bible". You along with UNFORTUNATELY most Christians/Muslims/Jews do not differentiate between the TWO Gods...
You see many laws where Christ saw only two... You magnify the many laws so you can persecute "the God of the Bible" and perpetuate DIVISION from the true God...
You only show what a fool you are and you lower yourself to the level of the people you attempt to discredit... Then you become no more of a help to society than those you accuse of misleading society. You become the barbarian cartoon God that you seek to prosecute. You being completely unaware that the purpose of these scriptures are to reveal to those of enlightened spirit the gullibility of others and yourself. Thus the true God's power is magnified in your weakness.
As I have said before Frank, you cannot learn...
Ephesians 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the
riches of his glory, to be
strengthened with might
by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye,
being rooted and grounded in love,
18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ,
which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the
FULNESS OF GOD.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
When I talk about the god of the Bible....I am talking about the god Jesus worshipped.
If you have a problem with that...live with it.
As for whether or not your god is a jealous god...well...it is your god who tells us that it is a jealous god.
Once again:
"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9
Aren't you proud your god feels this way?
RexRed wrote:
Most Christians do use OT laws, ignorant of the revelation of Christ and Paul the Apostle... the only one who I know that spouts OT laws more than most Christians is Frank.
That is because when I talk about the god of the Bible...I am referring to the god Jesus worshipped. You know that god, Rex...
...the one you are trying to pretend does not exist in the Bible.
Frank Apisa wrote:RexRed wrote:
Most Christians do use OT laws, ignorant of the revelation of Christ and Paul the Apostle... the only one who I know that spouts OT laws more than most Christians is Frank.
That is because when I talk about the god of the Bible...I am referring to the god Jesus worshipped. You know that god, Rex...
...the one you are trying to pretend does not exist in the Bible.
Are you saying that Jesus worshiped the devil?
Jesus said I am the
way,
truth and the
life...
Even Jesus acknowledged that there were two Gods and two
ways...
Jesus defeated the devil and became the "lord"...
Again you err...
RexRed wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:RexRed wrote:
Most Christians do use OT laws, ignorant of the revelation of Christ and Paul the Apostle... the only one who I know that spouts OT laws more than most Christians is Frank.
That is because when I talk about the god of the Bible...I am referring to the god Jesus worshipped. You know that god, Rex...
...the one you are trying to pretend does not exist in the Bible.
Are you saying that Jesus worshiped the devil?
Jesus said I am the
way,
truth and the
life...
Even Jesus acknowledged that there were two Gods and two
ways...
Jesus defeated the devil and became the "lord"...
Again you err...
Try to work through your denial, Rex.
Jesus worshipped the god who spoke the words I quoted.
RedRex...
I'm really trying to understand your take on this. Are you saying that the Devil said this:
"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9
If this is what you are saying, how do you know? How do you know which parts of the Bible are God's word, and which are the Devil's? Or are you saying something different?
Please explain, step by step, your interpretation of the Bible.
Hi Real Life. Sure, I'll try to answer your Q.
My question has more to do with Absolute Truth or Moral Absolutes.
If the only absolute in your view is death, are you saying that there is nothing that is Absolute in terms of right and wrong?
How about:
murder?
rape?
theft?
pedophilia ?
Would you describe any of these (or anything else) in Absolute terms as Wrong, as in "I believe that rape is wrong. Always. It's not a matter of opinion, or whether it's against a country's laws. It's just wrong."
Is there anything you would describe in Absolute terms as Right?
Do you believe in Absolutes?
If you do, can you tell us where these Absolutes come from?
Quote:
Well, I do not think anything is truly Absolute. Everything is up in the air. Even the 'Absolutes' which are steady constants regulating life; are up to change. Not Absolute.
Concerning rape, murder, etc....I do not feel that Absolutes are relevent. They are not matters of Absolute. Those are human 'dillemas'.
However, I do feel there is something that naturally regulates. I have had conversations with Christians in the past who say : oh yeah, that is God you're talking about. I say: Ok, sure. Whatever helps to bridge the perilious waters of understanding!
This 'something that regulates' is inconceivable to me. I get little tastes (what a tease!) and I get to have my fun as a speck in the scheme of things, but I don't know sh*t when it comes to how it works. The most I know is how to survive as a human: that's pretty good really!
I'm just along for the ride. I try to keep my mind open and see what happens next.
Does that answer the Q, REal Life?
djbt wrote:RedRex...
I'm really trying to understand your take on this. Are you saying that the Devil said this:
"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9
If this is what you are saying, how do you know? How do you know which parts of the Bible are God's word, and which are the Devil's? Or are you saying something different?
Please explain, step by step, your interpretation of the Bible.
Good luck, dj.
Rex tends to attribute anything in the Bible with which he is in disagreement...to this "second god"....de debil!
djbt wrote:RedRex...
I'm really trying to understand your take on this. Are you saying that the Devil said this:
"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9
If this is what you are saying, how do you know? How do you know which parts of the Bible are God's word, and which are the Devil's? Or are you saying something different?
Please explain, step by step, your interpretation of the Bible.
I know because Jesus revealed the one true God and the sprit realm to the world, that was unknown or lost before his time... The new testament does not start in the Bible until the book of Acts not the Gospel of Matthew... Jesus had to fulfill the law because the devil was still in power. The OT and Gospels were "addressed" to the Hebrews and not the Church of God.
The reason why Jesus "knew" the true God was because his blood did not come from Mary his mother but from God (his flesh part came from Mary) so it was without Adam's sins. The Bible (Law which Jesus was governed by) says sin in the blood. Because of this sinless blood the "HOLY spirit dove" was able to come and reside completely within Jesus and reveal the split spirit kingdom to Christ.
This was why Christ was able to forgive sins and caste out devils. Yet he was still bound by the power of the devil. He had to fulfill the law because he was still a man and had not come to his own power. So the devil was not an image of the true God but an image of his own making. Yet God through history found ways to deliver people.
God was powerless to stop the OT devil from being see as "God" because this power that God gave Adam, Adam Gave to the devil/serpent... God does not trouble himself with laws because God relates to the world in a much more loving uniting way than the devil did in the OT. The laws only divided people and laid burdens upon them that ultimately drove them from God to the worship of idols and ultimately the worship of the devil directly. But they did not know the true character of the devil. There was little escape from the devil who was both Satan (masquerading as a God) and/or the devil (right in their face worshiped openly).
So the devil had dominion over the earth or in other words he became the God of this world with the complete power and authority of God. Yet God had means in which to counter this powerful "theos". It has to do with Adam and the promise of Noah. Noah (with the rainbow) promised God that he would teach his children the coming of the messiah and if they believed they would receive a "portion" of the holy spirit. This gave them the ability to partially see the truth of the one true God but only through a glass darkly.
So their understanding was a secondary measure that blended the one true God and the God of this world. Thus the devil would use the laws to convict and the true God was powerless and had to to comply with the same laws. In the end God used the devils own laws to convict the devil. One of the devils laws was "sin is death" so the devil could wipe out mass amounts of people by catastrophic floods etc... because had "real" power. But God would find a hole in the laws and deliver the people.
The true God did not want to give the law to man prior to the law the Bible says God winked on the transgressions of the faithful. He shut his eyes and focused upon the good of life. This "good" was an oral saga passed down from Adam. Even though Adam gave dominion over the earth to the devil he soon realized the darkness that accompanied losing his spirit and his mind remembered the relationship that he had once shared with God.
Adam remembered many of the virtues that God had taught him before his spirit had died. One of these was the lesson that this messiah was to come someday and right the wrongs of Adam... So if Adam's children adhered to these teachings they would receive a small portion of spirit if they rejected them they would become pawns of the devil and be born of his spirit.
So Adam and his wife bore children. One child was a blessed soul and the other was a murderer. This only demonstrated the schism that was now in the bodies of the spiritual kingdoms of the world. But Adam taught the coming of the messiah and some believed upon this messiah and some claimed to BE this messiah and ruled as a counterfeit messiah. Those who believed on this coming messiah were granted a small potion of spirit "upon" them where they were able to SEE and escape the wrath of the false "God".
Over time oral traditions of Adam/ Noah became muddled (as most stories do over time) and lost... there were soon many false messiahs. (Babylon) Even Eve in the Bible proclaimed Cain as the messiah bragging that "SHE" (by her own will) had brought forth the "child of the lord"... instead he was the first murderer.. It was Mary that proclaimed "be it unto me according to "THY" will. And it was so...
The law was not the only means by which people could escape the the spiritual tyranny of the fallen Angel. God also gave the people priests endued with spirit and prophets that had portions of spirit "upon" them. Yet with all of these means the old testament was written by holy men that had a deficiency that sometimes was about the true God and sometimes not.
The devil took Jesus upon a high mountain and told him that he would "give him the kingdoms of the world if he would only bow down and worship him"... Jesus knew the difference between the voices of God and he could discern spirits. How could the devil's claim be credible if he did not have dominion over the worlds kingdoms if he did not actually have this power to barter with? This is why after the war in hell that Jesus emerged the king of kings and lord of lords.
Then we see peter deny Jesus three times twice.. this also revealed the depravity of the spiritual deposit even in Jesus' time. Judas betrayed him. And between the time where the holy spirit came to the world on the day of Pentecost the apostles were sitting in the upper room shaking with fear... Fifty days later peter stood up with the eleven and said "Ye men of Jerusalem have crucified and slain the lord of glory!" What changed Peter? It was the gift of holy spirit "WITHIN"... Christ in them (Christ-in = Christian). THIS IS HOW I KNOW.... The new testament "Acts to Thessalonians" are addressed TO the church and reveal the ONE true God... The God of love and "liberty"... and the "way of holiness"...
Yet God is a God of law in various aspects. Because the the devil was a God with real POWER and his reign had not been brought to and end in Jesus' time Jesus was bound by the high powers of the devil and his kingdom until he later defeated this power in hell and took over the position of "LORD"... It was the law, "sin is death" another law ... "sin is in the blood" that when the devil crucified the lord of Glory he could not hold him in the grave because his blood was without the sin of Adam (a baby can have a different blood type than their mother... how they knew that back then is a wonder in itself)
But God was the father and he put the life in the blood of Jesus and the flesh part came from Mary... So it was the devil's own law that eventually profited the messiah. The Bible says we are partakers of flesh and blood but Jesus only took part. Which part did her take. The flesh part. The life in his blood came from God. Think of a chicken with an egg. If a rooster does not fertilize the egg the egg will not grow into a living organism. So the life in our blood was passed down from Adam and is passed down from male to egg and so on. God created a "new" life in the egg of Mary that was not tainted with the original sin. This is why Christ was tempted in all points but without sin... And why if sin was death the devil could not hold him in the grave.
I can back everything up here I have said with scriptures but this post would have been considerably longer.
I am not saying there is not truth in the old testament but I am saying that it needs to be seen through the FULL spiritual eyes of the new testament.
Now today we do not receive a portion of spirit "upon" for believing on the coming messiah but we receive the spirit "within" for believing on the messiah/Christ/Lord that has already come and been raised from the dead. We being in his body (spiritually) are raised with him to heavenly places and we now can KNOW the love of the TRUE God which passeth knowledge.
This was a long post I may have errors in my grammar and continuity but, oh well.
If you want to understand read it over and over again until it clicks... That is how I learned it...
Peace with God....
Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Matthew 4:8-10
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;[a woman does not have a seed but and egg] it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Genesis 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Luke 1:38
And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime [Before the new testament (Acts to Thessalonians)] were written for [not "to" us] our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Matthew 26:33-35
33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice[three times twice].
35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.
Comment:
This was the same Peter that Jesus would go to the shores of Galilee and call him to follow him, then like clockwork in a short time Jesus would expect to find Peter preaching and would find Peter back on the boats fishing...
Comment:
After the denials and the death of Jesus Christ...
John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, [In his resurected body] and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Comment:
Several days later and on the day of Pentecost when the holy spirit came from heaven and filled Peter and the other apostles, Peter said:
Acts 2:14
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them [a multitude (more than you could count)], Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Comment: In other words listen and listen damn good!
Acts 2:22-24
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Comment: What changed Peter?
Romans chapter 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation [Judgement] to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh [five senses], but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh [five senses/satan], God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law [was there unrighteous law?] might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit [mind] the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally [legally] minded is death; but to be spiritually minded[liberty] is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against [the true] God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh [five senses] cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in [not upon] you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness [liberty].
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage [law] again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness [proof] with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature [OT God] waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature [OT God] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself [OT God] also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption [God of this world] into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption[sonship], to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered [speaking in tongues].
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love [the one true] God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren [one generation not many].
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified [liberty]: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things [spoil us]?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth [thought liberty].
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword [or law]?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, [is this saying that what was "written" was wrong?] in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Numbers 11:17
And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.
Numbers 11:29
And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
Colossians
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Comment: These are only a few...
flushd wrote:Hi Real Life. Sure, I'll try to answer your Q.
real life wrote:My question has more to do with Absolute Truth or Moral Absolutes.
If the only absolute in your view is death, are you saying that there is nothing that is Absolute in terms of right and wrong?
How about:
murder?
rape?
theft?
pedophilia ?
Would you describe any of these (or anything else) in Absolute terms as Wrong, as in "I believe that rape is wrong. Always. It's not a matter of opinion, or whether it's against a country's laws. It's just wrong."
Is there anything you would describe in Absolute terms as Right?
Do you believe in Absolutes?
If you do, can you tell us where these Absolutes come from?
Well, I do not think anything is truly Absolute. Everything is up in the air. Even the 'Absolutes' which are steady constants regulating life; are up to change. Not Absolute.
Concerning rape, murder, etc....I do not feel that Absolutes are relevent. They are not matters of Absolute. Those are human 'dillemas'.
However, I do feel there is something that naturally regulates. I have had conversations with Christians in the past who say : oh yeah, that is God you're talking about. I say: Ok, sure. Whatever helps to bridge the perilious waters of understanding!
This 'something that regulates' is inconceivable to me. I get little tastes (what a tease!) and I get to have my fun as a speck in the scheme of things, but I don't know sh*t when it comes to how it works. The most I know is how to survive as a human: that's pretty good really!
I'm just along for the ride. I try to keep my mind open and see what happens next.
Does that answer the Q, REal Life?
Just to clarify and make sure I understand ---
So if you do not think that there are Moral Absolutes in the questions of (for example) murder, rape, theft, pedophilia ---- are you stating that those things are not morally wrong in some or all times and places?
dj
Allow me to sum up that long post from Rex for you. The summation really is just a re-wording of one sentence.
RexRed wrote:
I am not saying there is not truth in the old testament but I am saying that it needs to be seen through the FULL spiritual eyes of the new testament.
Re-worded, it reads:
If you disagree with anything written in the Old Testament...attribute it to the devil!
brahmin wrote:real life wrote:brahmin wrote:real life wrote:brahmin wrote:there's just one thing thats absolute/non-negotiable in this world, common to everyone.
that we came naked, we will go naked.
and thats irrespective of which "spoke" we follow from rim to axle.
My question has more to do with Absolute Truth or Moral Absolutes.
If the only absolute in your view is death, are you saying that there is nothing that is Absolute in terms of right and wrong?
How about:
murder?
rape?
theft?
pedophilia ?
Would you describe any of these (or anything else) in Absolute terms as Wrong, as in "I believe that rape is wrong. Always. It's not a matter of opinion, or whether it's against a country's laws. It's just wrong."
Is there anything you would describe in Absolute terms as Right?
Do you believe in Absolutes?
If you do, can you tell us where these Absolutes come from?
i said "not negotiable" as in inevitable.. not whether they are absolutely right or absolutely wrong (as all your examples are).
the only thing about which there's no two ways, & leaves out no one as an exception is that we have to go back naked one day.
i do not believe in absolutes - there are none barring the one i stated.
the one's you stated are not inevitable, hence not absolutes. for eample there are many who manage to spend their lives without getting raped or humped in the cradle.
Hi Flushd,
Since Brahmin seems to have missed the point here, I'll toss the ball to you.
How would you answer my questions regarding Absolutes of Right and Wrong?
how have i misse the point ?? have i not answered your question?
No.
My question was regarding Right and Wrong Absolutes, not Absolute as in 'inevitable' or in the sense of an event that happens to everybody. (You mentioned death as the only absolute.)
All of my examples had to do with Right and Wrong (as you commented on) BECAUSE that was the point I was addressing.
Don't know how much plainer I could have made it. I am asking about Moral Absolutes, i.e. Right and Wrong.
Flushd seems to indicate no belief in Moral Absolutes, although I have asked for clarification just to be sure.
If you would like to take a swing at it, I invite you to do so. (Sorry if any poor wording on my part caused you to misunderstand my question.)
Moral Absolutes-- do they exist or no ?
Would you describe anything in Absolute terms as Wrong? Example -- "I believe that ______________ is wrong. Always. It's not a matter of opinion, or whether it's against a country's laws. It's just wrong."
moral near-absolutes yes.
the thing is, in .05% of the cases, it IS possible to justify all you named.
murder? - israel's murder f yassin is perfectly justified. and its liquidation of ex-ss commanders
rape? - perhaps not justifiable at all, but if ever it happens in a war zone, then is not your normal civilian rape.
theft? - theft of papers during counter espionage for example is quite justifiable.
pedophilia ? - possible. not all 13-17 year olds are immature. its perfectly possible for 2 such people or even a teen and a non-teen (19+) to do it in a perfectly mutual way. if i know right, in some scandinavian countries, age of consent is 15.
so thats that. moral near-absolutes do exist.
RealLife said:
So if you do not think that there are Moral Absolutes in the questions of (for example) murder, rape, theft, pedophilia ---- are you stating that those things are not morally wrong in some or all times and places?
Correct. You understood me.
