Which Religion is the One True Religion?

cicerone imposter wrote:

Points you wouldn't understand. What source? The bible, ofcoarse! LOL

You looked up every instance that you posted? That is not your usual style. If this is true, you are to be commended for your perserverance. Oh, and why wouldn't I understand it and why did you find that so funny? Perhaps you could advise on which bible you used for your research.

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KJV. Actually, I didn't do the legwork myself. I got it from a web search. But they did refer to the KJV>

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cicerone imposter wrote:

KJV.

Could you provide the publisher and year. You will find it on the inside pages.

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I'm leaving now for San Francisco International Airport, so unless I'm able to find a internet cafe in Bali, you'll have to wait until I get back on September 9.

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You sure go to great lengths not to answer a question Laughing

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cicerone imposter wrote:

INTRODUCTION
It is a central dogma of all fundamental Christians that the Bible is without error. They teach this conclusion by "reasoning" that god cannot be the author of false meaning and he cannot lie. Is this true? If written by a perfect being, then it must not contradict itself, as a collection of books written by different men at different times over many centuries would be expected to contradict each other.

With this in mind, let us have a look at the Bible on several subjects.

I'll just take the first two for starters:

cicerone imposter wrote:

ON THE SABBATH DAY
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." -- Exodus 20:8

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." -- Romans 14:5

Jesus fulfilled the law and we no longer are under obligation to observe the sabbath. But we are still encouraged to meet. (Hebrews 10: 23-25)

cicerone imposter wrote:

ON THE PERMANENCY OF THE EARTH
"... the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecclesiastes 1:4

"... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2Peter 3:10

That Peter's words are to be taken symbolically is shown by what he said earlier at 2Peter 3:5,6: "For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. "

The earth will abide and be inhabited according to God's original purpose.

Sloppy research on your part, CI.

P.S. Enjoy your trip. Joe and I will miss you. Laughing

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neologist wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
INTRODUCTION
It is a central dogma of all fundamental Christians that the Bible is without error. They teach this conclusion by "reasoning" that god cannot be the author of false meaning and he cannot lie. Is this true? If written by a perfect being, then it must not contradict itself, as a collection of books written by different men at different times over many centuries would be expected to contradict each other.

With this in mind, let us have a look at the Bible on several subjects.
I'll just take the first two for starters:
cicerone imposter wrote:
ON THE SABBATH DAY
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." -- Exodus 20:8

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." -- Romans 14:5
Jesus fulfilled the law and we no longer are under obligation...

I've seen this tired old mantra trotted out so often by Christians...I cannot help but wonder why you folks accept that it is so...other than because it manages to divorce you all from the god Jesus worshipped...with all its excesses.

First of all...Jesus went way out of his way to confirm that he was not here to change any of the law....not one word; not one letter of one word; not one stroke of one letter.

Secondly...how can the law "be fulfilled?"

"The law"...which really is nothing more than the recitiation chronicled in Leviticus and repeated in Deuteronomy...is not something that can be "fulfilled."

"The law" conveys a sense of what the god of this particular mythology is like; what pleases and what offends it; and what its expectations are for humans.

It is not something like "You've gotta take out the garbage before you leave for school"..."Okay, the garbage is out, so I'm off to school."

I'd like to discuss this. If we could, I'd like to start with the following two questions:

1) What is there in "the Law" that causes you to suppose it was set up so that it could be fulfilled?

2) Why are you saying that Jesus fulfilled whatever it is that you listed in response to question #1?

By the way...so that I do not run into the same problem ci just did, here is a bibliography of the Bibles and other material I will use in this discussion.

St. Joseph Edition of The New American Bible; Catholic book Publishing, NY; 1968 (Catholic)

The New American Bible; Thomas Nelson Inc, Nashville; 1971 (Catholic)

The Holy Bible King James Version; Thomas Nelson, Nashville: 1984 (Protestant)

The Holy Bible New International Version; Zondervan Bible Pub. Grand Rapids; 1978 (Non-demoninational)

The Scofield Reference Holy Bible (King James Version); Oxford Univ. Press; NY; 1909 (Protestant)

The Holy Scriptures Masoretic Text; Jewish Publ Society; Philadelphia: 1955 (Jewish)

The Holy Bible, St.Joseph Textbook Edition, Confraternity Version; Catholic book Publ: NY; 1963; (Catholic)

The Holy Bible Revised Berkeley Version; The Gideons Intrl; 1984; (Non-denominational Protestant)

The New American Catholic Edition of The Holy Bible; Benziger Bros, Boston; 1950 (Catholic)

The Old Testament; Guild Press NY; 1965 (Catholic)

The Living Bible; Holman Illustrated Edition: A.J. Holman Co; Philadelphia; 1973 (Protestant)

The Holy Bible; King James Version; The World Publ Co: Cleveland; (no date); (Protestant)

The Old Testament; Hebrew Publishing Co: NY; 1916 (English & Hebrew) (Jewish)

The Common Catechism of the Christian Faith: Seabury Press;NY 1975 (Protestant)

Catechism of the Catholic Church: Libreria Editrice Vaticana; Urbi et Orbi Comm; 1994 (Catholic)

The New St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism: Catholic Book Publish; NY; 1962 (Catholic)

(I prefer to use the first referenced Bible because its language is easier to understand...but I often check several other sources before posting.)

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cicerone imposter wrote:

so unless I'm able to find a internet cafe in Bali,

you will.....

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Hi Frank;

Jesus fulfilled the law by living a perfect life. (If you believe the bible, that is.)

If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, early Christians would have continued the practices of temple worship, including animal sacrifice.

I don't guess they did that. Do you?

BTW, that's an impressive bibliography, Frank. I'm impressed. I really am.

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Me, too. Whew man, that's an impressive bibliography.

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neologist wrote:

Hi Frank;

Jesus fulfilled the law by living a perfect life. (If you believe the bible, that is.)

Well...I do not "believe" the Bible in the sense that you mean...but I certainly am willing to accept that a book called the Bible exists. I certainly see nothing in that book to suggest that "the Law" could be "fulfilled" by someone living a perfect life.

Of course, I am completely willing to accept that people who think Jesus lived a "perfect life" might want, after the fact, to offer that as evidence that in fact the law has "been fulfilled"...but where are we going with that?

What exactly does "fulfilling the law" mean?

How does one "fulfill" for instance...this part of the law:

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."

...or this...

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13...

...or this...

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff...

...or this...

..."When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you." Deuteronomy 20:10...

...or this...

..
"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9

Quote:

If Jesus had not fulfilled the law, early Christians would have continued the practices of temple worship, including animal sacrifice.

Really. I'm not sure I understand the logic in your assertion here. Couldn't they have simply decided they didn't feel like observing all that stuff...and arbitrarily declared that "Jesus has fulfilled the law...and we no longer have to do this?"

Couldn't they?

Couldn't Paul...in his zeal to convert people outside the Jewish community arbitrarily...and in countervention of what Jesus said...arbitrarily have decided to declare that Jesus had somehow "fulfilled the law".

Couldn't he?

Quote:

I don't guess they did that. Do you?

I have no idea of exactly what they did...or exactly what their motives were.

Do you?

Quote:

BTW, that's an impressive bibliography, Frank. I'm impressed. I really am.

I'm happy that both you and Snood are impressed. I really do try to double and triple check things in those many Bibles...but I do screw up at times...so keep your eyes open.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

I'm happy that both you and Snood are impressed. I really do try to double and triple check things in those many Bibles...but I do screw up at times...so keep your eyes open.

Well said, Frank. Well said.

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Still writing on my book (The Silver Cross) or otherwise I would he here hounding you agies and athies..

http://rexred.com/thesilvercross.html

up to chapter 7 now

Smile

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Hey, I'm going to try to respond to the original Q.

I would never try to persuade someone that my 'religion' or way of life is THE WAY, or even that he/she should try living the way I do. I am a work in progress, and my way is my own.

Frankly, I am instantly critical as soon as something claims to have found "IT". Maybe you have for yourself, but you ain't me. I gotta do it on my own.

I don't follow any particular religion. I love hearing about religion, I love reading about the lives of the Catholic Saints and going to confession (better than confessing in a bar), I love Buddhist chants and meditation, I love yoga, I love learning about the Trickster and Mother Earth and animal spirits, I love sharing circles, I love learning about Ra and Ptah and Allah and Yahweh, I love hearing about Lao Tzu and all the others, I love that I have a superstitious streak and read horoscopes with good spirits.....blahblahblha.

Basically, I dont think there is a right religion. I love the fact that folks are trying all different things, and suceeding in various degrees. 100 years from now, what is it going to matter?

Just do what works for you. I firmly believe religion is to serve humanity, not the other way around. It's gotta work.

cheers

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Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

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RexRed wrote:

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9

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brahmin wrote:

there's just one thing thats absolute/non-negotiable in this world, common to everyone.

that we came naked, we will go naked.

and thats irrespective of which "spoke" we follow from rim to axle.

My question has more to do with Absolute Truth or Moral Absolutes.

If the only absolute in your view is death, are you saying that there is nothing that is Absolute in terms of right and wrong?

How about:

murder?

rape?

theft?

pedophilia ?

Would you describe any of these (or anything else) in Absolute terms as Wrong, as in "I believe that rape is wrong. Always. It's not a matter of opinion, or whether it's against a country's laws. It's just wrong."

Is there anything you would describe in Absolute terms as Right?

Do you believe in Absolutes?

If you do, can you tell us where these Absolutes come from?

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real life wrote:

brahmin wrote:
there's just one thing thats absolute/non-negotiable in this world, common to everyone.

that we came naked, we will go naked.

and thats irrespective of which "spoke" we follow from rim to axle.

My question has more to do with Absolute Truth or Moral Absolutes.

If the only absolute in your view is death, are you saying that there is nothing that is Absolute in terms of right and wrong?

How about:

murder?

rape?

theft?

pedophilia ?

Would you describe any of these (or anything else) in Absolute terms as Wrong, as in "I believe that rape is wrong. Always. It's not a matter of opinion, or whether it's against a country's laws. It's just wrong."

Is there anything you would describe in Absolute terms as Right?

Do you believe in Absolutes?

If you do, can you tell us where these Absolutes come from?

i said "not negotiable" as in inevitable.. not whether they are absolutely right or absolutely wrong (as all your examples are).

the only thing about which there's no two ways, & leaves out no one as an exception is that we have to go back naked one day.

i do not believe in absolutes - there are none barring the one i stated.

the one's you stated are not inevitable, hence not absolutes. for eample there are many who manage to spend their lives without getting raped or humped in the cradle.

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brahmin wrote:

real life wrote:
brahmin wrote:
there's just one thing thats absolute/non-negotiable in this world, common to everyone.

that we came naked, we will go naked.

and thats irrespective of which "spoke" we follow from rim to axle.

My question has more to do with Absolute Truth or Moral Absolutes.

If the only absolute in your view is death, are you saying that there is nothing that is Absolute in terms of right and wrong?

How about:

murder?

rape?

theft?

pedophilia ?

Would you describe any of these (or anything else) in Absolute terms as Wrong, as in "I believe that rape is wrong. Always. It's not a matter of opinion, or whether it's against a country's laws. It's just wrong."

Is there anything you would describe in Absolute terms as Right?

Do you believe in Absolutes?

If you do, can you tell us where these Absolutes come from?

i said "not negotiable" as in inevitable.. not whether they are absolutely right or absolutely wrong (as all your examples are).

the only thing about which there's no two ways, & leaves out no one as an exception is that we have to go back naked one day.

i do not believe in absolutes - there are none barring the one i stated.

the one's you stated are not inevitable, hence not absolutes. for eample there are many who manage to spend their lives without getting raped or humped in the cradle.

Hi Flushd,

Since Brahmin seems to have missed the point here, I'll toss the ball to you.

How would you answer my questions regarding Absolutes of Right and Wrong?

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I to do not subscribe to absolutes in regards to right vs wrong. Even the ones you listed are not ALWAYS wrong. Most of the time yes, but not ALWAYS.

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Which Religion is the One True Religion?

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