real life wrote:Hi Wolf,
Yes, you and I have been over this ground before and apparently you don't get it.
Oh, I get it, but apparently, you don't. I understand that you are have no ammunition to argue with, so thusly you attack the person making the argument instead of coming up with a counter-argument.
My former argument was based on logic and the definition of God. The definition of God is vague and changes from person to person. If you try to set out to prove God exists through empirical logic, you cannot, because of the vague nature of his existence, the vague definition of his existence and so forth.
What is God? A supreme being that is not of this physical plane of existence, that knows everything and can do everything?
How can you prove someone is everywhere at once, if you yourself cannot be everywhere at once? How can you prove he is omniscient, if you don't know everything there is to know? How can you even find him if he isn't of this physical plane of existence?
Now, with CI's argument, there is no need for omniscience, although he should have been more precise and stated there is no evidnce to suggest that prayer works amongst humans in this world.
That is true, because the studies prove it. There are numerous studies that prove this hypothesis to be true, each using a large number of people. If you were to repeat that study, you'd find the same result comes out.
Note, also that maporsche shares my view that your viewpoint, according to your logic, also requires omniscience.
You have seen God? So what? How can you prove that was God and not some Demon with God-like powers?
It is time I found all the numerous studies that showed that prayer in the form of faith heailng has no effect.
Well, this study shows that praying gave no additional benefits to children with psychiatric disorders:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15715813
Then there's the case of retroactive prayer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15604179
In the case of HIV, one study proved that faith healing was a risk to diagnosis of cancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15765309
Here's another report looking at how many child deaths could have been prevented if their parents did not completely substitute traditional medicine for faith healing:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/101/4/625.pdf
Here's another concerning cancer patients' use of faith healing and other non-proven treatments, the conclusion of the study showing that NPTs do not have any effect on the patients:
http://www.jco.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/1/6
I think, however, this following article is very itneresting and very relevant to this topic:
http://www.sram.org/0801/v8n1_columbia_prayer.pdf
Oh and here's one about how over 200 children in the US have died from treatable illnesses as a result of their parents relying on spiritual healing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15637946
You may argue that these are documented cases against faith healing, but what is faith healing if not praying really hard for a miracle?