Which Religion is the One True Religion?

Going back about 10 pages to timber's post: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1519593#1519593

I picked up a copy of The DaVinci Code and couldn't put it down. It's an impressive work. I'm amazed at the effort put forth in the search for the sangreal. The constant peering into the most esoteric clues was a marvel to behold. Happily, understanding the bible does not require such mental power.

I humbly submit the beginning of an answer in the full realization that my effort cannot possibly prove what has never been proven. All it can do is provide a basis for belief:

Using as a source: http://www.merriamwebster.com

Objective and empirical:
. . . in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought

and perceptible by all observers.
. . . originating in or based on observation or experience.
. . . capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment.

Have I left anything out?

Axioms:
It is possible that God exists. First, let me explain my concept of what God may be like.

I have been convinced for some time of a proposition not my own: that our perceptions are limited by and function within the entities of space and time. We are aware that other entities or dimensions must exist, yet are unable to articulate their nature, much less to exercise our will within their realms. Could it be possible that the God of the bible, Jehovah, or Yahweh, whose name means 'He who causes to become' has not only authored all natural and moral laws but has either created or fabricated space and time so that what we experience as reality might come to be? This idea represents my understanding of God's power. God has given us a portion of this power as a gift: it is the vital difference between us and automatons; free will.

Additionally, God has given us the qualities of love, justice and wisdom. Jesus commented on those qualities in Matthew 7:9-11 when he said: "Indeed, who is the man among YOU whom his son asks for bread?-he will not hand him a stone, will he? 10 Or, perhaps, he will ask for a fish?-he will not hand him a serpent, will he? 11 Therefore, if YOU, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to YOUR children, how much more so will YOUR Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?"

The bible was not written as a scientific treatise. Yet it was written so it may be verified or disproved by observation and sensible experience. For example, Paul clearly stated an argument from the point of view of design in Romans 1:20. While this is not a priori proof of the existence of God, it certainly gives strong evidence of a universe governed by laws, many of which we have yet to learn.

Let me say once again: These are my axioms. I don't expect you to accept them until, in future posts, I have attempted to show how the bible verifies these axioms and how the God I believe in used the covenants recorded in the bible to explain to us why He has permitted evil, what He has done about it and what He intends to do further about it. I will refer in particular to the Edenic covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Law Covenant and the New Covenant.

And when all is said and done, will I expect any of you to change your minds?

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Monday, July 25, 2005
Does prayer work?
An American study has investigated the effect of prayer on patients undergoing heart surgery. Three hundred and seventy-one heart surgery patients who were prayed for by 12 religious congregations fared no better in the six months after their operation than 377 patients who were not prayed for.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Monday, July 25, 2005
Does prayer work?
An American study has investigated the effect of prayer on patients undergoing heart surgery. Three hundred and seventy-one heart surgery patients who were prayed for by 12 religious congregations fared no better in the six months after their operation than 377 patients who were not prayed for.

Perhaps those praying should have read Matthew 6:7: "But when praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words." Supplications repeated over and over may not, in fact, be prayers.

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A specious argument, it is reminiscent of the argument that murderous Christians are not really Christians, and that they therefore don't represent a valid rebuke to Christianity. I rather suspect that those involved in the prayer would not agree with you. Basically, your argument is that if prayer failed of the desired effect, it was not properly prayer. I am greatly amused, however, to see you criticizing mere technique.

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It's amazing that some christians know there are folks who call themselves christians, but they are not. Must be a special gift of some christians selected by their god.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

"To claim however that NO prayer has at ANY time worked would require omniscience on your part.

You are once again in the position of trying to prove a negative. Go ahead."

I don't have to. Harvard did a study on prayer, and found no difference between no prayer and prayer for cancer patients.

If you doubt the study, you'll have to ask Harvard.

Harvard's study simply stated they were unable to detect a difference in the cases they studied.

Your statement is much more broadly worded:

cicerone imposter wrote:

Prayer does not work

To express absolute certainty, as you have, in this type of overarching, all inclusive statement asserting a negative as it's thesis would certainly require omniscience.

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real life wrote:

To express absolute certainty, as you have, in this type of overarching, all inclusive statement asserting a negative as it's thesis would certainly require omniscience.

Your position requires the same omniscience. You claim that god does answer ALL prayers, sometimes it's answer is "no" but it is still an answer. Am I missing something? Are you holding his argument to a standard that you are unwilling to hold yourself to?

Can I get a response this time, I posted this same information yesterday but you seemingly glanced over it, unwilling (or unable) to find fault in my logic.

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maporsche wrote:

real life wrote:

To express absolute certainty, as you have, in this type of overarching, all inclusive statement asserting a negative as it's thesis would certainly require omniscience.

Your position requires the same omniscience. You claim that god does answer ALL prayers, sometimes it's answer is "no" but it is still an answer. Am I missing something? Are you holding his argument to a standard that you are unwilling to hold yourself to?

Can I get a response this time, I posted this same information yesterday but you seemingly glanced over it, unwilling (or unable) to find fault in my logic.

What the Heck? Real life is accusing another person here of being omniscient?

Laughing

I have been the target of a similar attack myself, when I claimed that it is impossible to say whether God exists or not, because there isn't enough credible empirical proof. Enough about that, however.

Real life, I know from reading certain scientific studies that prayer does not work in any aspect except as a placebo. This does not require omniscience. This merely requires reading a lot of studies. From these studies, I know that the phrase "Prayer is nothing more than a placebo with no real effect" is more true than its antithesis.

Somewhere in these forums, possibly in the Faith Healing thread, I have listed a number of studies that show that prayer as a substitute for traditional medicine does not work and when forced on to children is tantamount to child abuse.

Shall I find these studies for you?

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Hi Wolf,

Yes, you and I have been over this ground before and apparently you don't get it.

If I see or hear or experience something, it does not require omniscience to simply state what I saw, etc.

To state the negative of that, i.e. that what I have seen does not exist in the universe, would require knowledge of all in that universe.

Simple enough?

CI likes to post his theses in the form of negatives, i.e. There is no God, There is no afterlife, Prayer does not work, etc.

It's a bad habit that logic should break him of. But as you can see, logic is of no avail in this case.

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real life wrote:

Hi Wolf,

Yes, you and I have been over this ground before and apparently you don't get it.

Oh, I get it, but apparently, you don't. I understand that you are have no ammunition to argue with, so thusly you attack the person making the argument instead of coming up with a counter-argument.

My former argument was based on logic and the definition of God. The definition of God is vague and changes from person to person. If you try to set out to prove God exists through empirical logic, you cannot, because of the vague nature of his existence, the vague definition of his existence and so forth.

What is God? A supreme being that is not of this physical plane of existence, that knows everything and can do everything?

How can you prove someone is everywhere at once, if you yourself cannot be everywhere at once? How can you prove he is omniscient, if you don't know everything there is to know? How can you even find him if he isn't of this physical plane of existence?

Now, with CI's argument, there is no need for omniscience, although he should have been more precise and stated there is no evidnce to suggest that prayer works amongst humans in this world.

That is true, because the studies prove it. There are numerous studies that prove this hypothesis to be true, each using a large number of people. If you were to repeat that study, you'd find the same result comes out.

Note, also that maporsche shares my view that your viewpoint, according to your logic, also requires omniscience.

You have seen God? So what? How can you prove that was God and not some Demon with God-like powers?

It is time I found all the numerous studies that showed that prayer in the form of faith heailng has no effect.

Well, this study shows that praying gave no additional benefits to children with psychiatric disorders:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15715813

Then there's the case of retroactive prayer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15604179

In the case of HIV, one study proved that faith healing was a risk to diagnosis of cancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15765309

Here's another report looking at how many child deaths could have been prevented if their parents did not completely substitute traditional medicine for faith healing:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/101/4/625.pdf

Here's another concerning cancer patients' use of faith healing and other non-proven treatments, the conclusion of the study showing that NPTs do not have any effect on the patients:
http://www.jco.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/1/6

I think, however, this following article is very itneresting and very relevant to this topic: http://www.sram.org/0801/v8n1_columbia_prayer.pdf

Oh and here's one about how over 200 children in the US have died from treatable illnesses as a result of their parents relying on spiritual healing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15637946

You may argue that these are documented cases against faith healing, but what is faith healing if not praying really hard for a miracle?

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Setanta wrote:

A specious argument, it is reminiscent of the argument that murderous Christians are not really Christians, and that they therefore don't represent a valid rebuke to Christianity. I rather suspect that those involved in the prayer would not agree with you. Basically, your argument is that if prayer failed of the desired effect, it was not properly prayer. I am greatly amused, however, to see you criticizing mere technique.

Well, yes. Murderous christians are not Christians. And, yes. Those involved in such prayers are simply repeating words.

Whether prayer is acceptable to God, however, is not determined by result. Both teams (or armies) pray for victory. Neither prayer is heard by God.

Read the model prayer given by Jesus in Matthew chapter 6. What does he list as things appropriate for prayer?
The holding sacred of God's name.
That God's will be done.
Only then for sustenance and covering.
Lastly for forgiveness of sins.

So, if it is not God's will for Aunt Martha to recover from her illness. Then look for Aunt Martha in the resurrection.

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As you well know, i dissent from your exegesis . . . from your entire thesis, in fact. Nothing new for us there.

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No problem, my friend. I did not expect to convince you.

Not that I wouldn't try from time to time. Smile

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

real life wrote:
Hi Wolf,

Yes, you and I have been over this ground before and apparently you don't get it.

Oh, I get it, but apparently, you don't. I understand that you are have no ammunition to argue with, so thusly you attack the person making the argument instead of coming up with a counter-argument.

My former argument was based on logic and the definition of God. The definition of God is vague and changes from person to person. If you try to set out to prove God exists through empirical logic, you cannot, because of the vague nature of his existence, the vague definition of his existence and so forth.

What is God? A supreme being that is not of this physical plane of existence, that knows everything and can do everything?

How can you prove someone is everywhere at once, if you yourself cannot be everywhere at once? How can you prove he is omniscient, if you don't know everything there is to know? How can you even find him if he isn't of this physical plane of existence?

Now, with CI's argument, there is no need for omniscience, although he should have been more precise and stated there is no evidnce to suggest that prayer works amongst humans in this world.

That is true, because the studies prove it. There are numerous studies that prove this hypothesis to be true, each using a large number of people. If you were to repeat that study, you'd find the same result comes out.

Note, also that maporsche shares my view that your viewpoint, according to your logic, also requires omniscience.

You have seen God? So what? How can you prove that was God and not some Demon with God-like powers?

It is time I found all the numerous studies that showed that prayer in the form of faith heailng has no effect.

Well, this study shows that praying gave no additional benefits to children with psychiatric disorders:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15715813

Then there's the case of retroactive prayer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15604179

In the case of HIV, one study proved that faith healing was a risk to diagnosis of cancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15765309

Here's another report looking at how many child deaths could have been prevented if their parents did not completely substitute traditional medicine for faith healing:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/101/4/625.pdf

Here's another concerning cancer patients' use of faith healing and other non-proven treatments, the conclusion of the study showing that NPTs do not have any effect on the patients:
http://www.jco.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/1/6

I think, however, this following article is very itneresting and very relevant to this topic: http://www.sram.org/0801/v8n1_columbia_prayer.pdf

Oh and here's one about how over 200 children in the US have died from treatable illnesses as a result of their parents relying on spiritual healing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15637946

You may argue that these are documented cases against faith healing, but what is faith healing if not praying really hard for a miracle?

Relying on prayer alone is, of course, not what anyone here has suggested.

However, relying on medical help alone may be far more dangerous.

I'd not go to the hospital without praying.

from fda.gov, citing an Institute of Medicine ( part of the National Academy of Science) report

Quote:

The public took notice in 1999 when the Institute of Medicine (IOM) released a report, "To Err is Human: Building a Safer Health System." According to the report, between 44,000 and 98,000 deaths may result each year from medical errors in hospitals alone. And more than 7,000 deaths each year are related to medications. In response to the IOM's report, all parts of the U.S. health system put error reduction strategies into high gear by re-evaluating and strengthening checks and balances to prevent errors.

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2003/303_meds.html

Medication alone seemed to only account for part of this

Quote:

Since 1992, the Food and Drug Administration has received about 20,000 reports of medication errors. These are voluntary reports, so the number of medication errors that actually occur is thought to be much higher.

The small numbers you cite pale beside the estimate of 44,000-98,000 deaths EACH YEAR.

So, Wolf, if you go to the hospital let us know. I'll pray even if you don't.

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real life wrote:

Relying on prayer alone is, of course, not what anyone here has suggested.

No, but you can clearly see from the results of the studies, that prayer does not work.

Quote:

However, relying on medical help alone may be far more dangerous.

I'd not go to the hospital without praying.

from fda.gov, citing an Institute of Medicine ( part of the National Academy of Science) report

Quote:
The public took notice in 1999 when the Institute of Medicine (IOM) released a report, "To Err is Human: Building a Safer Health System." According to the report, between 44,000 and 98,000 deaths may result each year from medical errors in hospitals alone. And more than 7,000 deaths each year are related to medications. In response to the IOM's report, all parts of the U.S. health system put error reduction strategies into high gear by re-evaluating and strengthening checks and balances to prevent errors.

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2003/303_meds.html

Medication alone seemed to only account for part of this

Quote:
Since 1992, the Food and Drug Administration has received about 20,000 reports of medication errors. These are voluntary reports, so the number of medication errors that actually occur is thought to be much higher.

The small numbers you cite pale beside the estimate of 44,000-98,000 deaths EACH YEAR.

So, Wolf, if you go to the hospital let us know. I'll pray even if you don't.

True, 200 children is statistically small, but what is your point? That's 200 precious lives unnecessarily lost because of a false belief that prayer alone works.

I was trying to point out these studies, which prove that prayer does not work. Instead, you then make a counter argument saying that hospitals are more dangerous than prayer alone, changing the tact of the argument, and not taking into account the fact that less people prefer prayer alone to traditional medicine than traditional medicine over prayer alone.

You also fail to take into account that the percentage of people who die from illness who use prayer as their only method of healing is much larger than the percentage of people who die from traditional medicine.

However, I have suddenly realised that this argument is going a little bit off-track because of my insistence on trying to back someone else's argument up with facts that I've found.

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Well...

...in the interest of honesty and fairness...

...we really have to acknowledge that we do not know if prayer works or not.

It may.

And...it may have absolutely nothing to do with any gods.

Also, it may not.

It really is not an issue easily amenable to reasonable testing.

I've often noted, however, that if prayer had anywhere near the efficacy some theists place in it...THE EARTH WOULD BE THE MOST PEACEFUL SPOT IN THE UNIVERSE...because damn near every theist on the planet is praying for peace almost all the time.

But bottom line: We do not know if prayer works...or not. And even if it works...there is almost no way to associate its working...with any gods.

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Prayer works - in the minds of those that pray. Just don't apply any common sense, logic, or studies to prove it doesn't.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Well...

...in the interest of honesty and fairness...

...we really have to acknowledge that we do not know if prayer works or not.

It may.

And...it may have absolutely nothing to do with any gods.

Also, it may not.

It really is not an issue easily amenable to reasonable testing.

I've often noted, however, that if prayer had anywhere near the efficacy some theists place in it...THE EARTH WOULD BE THE MOST PEACEFUL SPOT IN THE UNIVERSE...because damn near every theist on the planet is praying for peace almost all the time.

But bottom line: We do not know if prayer works...or not. And even if it works...there is almost no way to associate its working...with any gods.

Well; golywhoppers, Frank. I'll have to agree with you at least 90%. Maybe more.

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Well...

...in the interest of honesty and fairness...

...we really have to acknowledge that we do not know if prayer works or not.

It may.

And...it may have absolutely nothing to do with any gods.

Also, it may not.

It really is not an issue easily amenable to reasonable testing.

I've often noted, however, that if prayer had anywhere near the efficacy some theists place in it...THE EARTH WOULD BE THE MOST PEACEFUL SPOT IN THE UNIVERSE...because damn near every theist on the planet is praying for peace almost all the time.

But bottom line: We do not know if prayer works...or not. And even if it works...there is almost no way to associate its working...with any gods.
Well; golywhoppers, Frank. I'll have to agree with you at least 90%. Maybe more.

Good. I knew there was lots of intelligence and logic in you...no matter how hard you try to disguise it. Twisted Evil

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I'm thoroughly disillusioned with the pair of ya . . .

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Which Religion is the One True Religion?

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