33
   

Which Religion is the One True Religion?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 04:17 pm
maporsche, That's like calling the Superman comic book a "theory." No can do.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 08:31 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
My sister visited yesterday because she wanted assistance to complete her 2004 income tax returns, and we discussed religion; the christian religion. She said she shouldn't judge, but it's her opinion that the majority of people who call themselves christian really are not. She's involved with a political group in Sacramento, and five christian ministers are also active. She said it's her opinion that ouf of the five ministers, only two are real christians.

I also challenged her about "god's love for humans" by addressing the fact that I can find more verses in the bible that speaks of a jealous, vengeful, approves of killing others, and hell-fire for those who do not believe for every "god is love" verse. She recanted.

She still believes in the power of prayer, and prays for all of her brothers - including me.

What can I say?


"Thank you" comes to mind.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 08:43 pm
No, not really. After I tell her I don't believe in prayer, it's not my place to control what she does. Thank you doesn't come to mind, but it's harmless either way.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 09:21 pm
maporsche wrote:
I will from this day forth refer to Christianity as the "Theory of Christianity" or (ToC for short). Since believers in the Theory of Christianity ALWAYS refer to evolution as the Theory of Evolution (actually Theory is usually written like this "THEORY" when referring to evolution) I commit myself to doing the same.

Anyone else interested in changing the terminology used to discuss this Theory of Christianity.


OR....with all the death that has surrounded the Theory of Christianity in it's past it would be a fair statment to refer to the ToC as the Previously Corrupt and Murderous Christianity or PCaMC.


Christianity doesn't claim to be science...
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 09:22 pm
timberlandko wrote:
A bit of empirical data relevant to the "Power of Prayer":

Quote:
Prayer's Power to Heal Strangers Is Examined
Cardiac Patients in New Study Fared No Better With Spiritual Intercession


By Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, July 15, 2005; A08



Praying for sick strangers does not improve their prospects of recovering, according to a large, carefully designed study that casts doubt on the widely held belief that being prayed for can help a person heal.

The study of more than 700 heart patients, one of the most ambitious attempts to test the medicinal power of prayer, showed that those who had people praying for them from a distance, and without their knowledge, were no less likely to suffer a major complication, end up back in the hospital or die.

While skeptics of prayer welcomed the results, other researchers questioned the findings, and proponents of prayer maintained that God's influence lies beyond the reach of scientific validation.

Surveys have shown that millions of Americans routinely pray when they are ill or when someone they know is. A growing body of evidence has found that religious people tend to be healthier than average, and that people who pray when they are ill are likely to fare better than those who do not. Many researchers think religious belief and practice can help people by providing social support and fostering positive emotions, which may produce beneficial responses by the body.

But the idea that praying for someone else -- even when he or she is unaware of it -- can affect a person's health has been much more controversial. Several studies have purported to show that such prayer is beneficial, but they have been criticized as deeply flawed. The debate prompted a spate of new studies aimed at avoiding those shortcomings, including the new study, which is the first to test prayer at multiple centers.

For the Mantra II study, Mitchell W. Krucoff, a cardiologist at Duke University Medical Center in Durham, N.C., and his colleagues designed an experiment involving 748 patients who underwent treatment for heart problems at nine hospitals around the country between 1999 and 2002.

The researchers enlisted 12 congregations of various Christian denominations, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists around the world to pray for some of the patients, giving them names, ages and descriptions of the illness. The researchers then divided the patients into four groups. The first quarter had people praying for them. The second quarter received a nontraditional treatment known as music, imagery and touch (MIT) therapy, which involved breathing techniques, soothing music, touch and other ways to relieve stress, such as calming mental images. The third group received both prayer and MIT, while the fourth received nothing.

In the final year of the study, the researchers took the additional step of asking more religious congregations to pray for the prayers of the initial group to work. Neither the patients nor their doctors knew whether someone was praying for them. The prayers varied depending on the religion, lasting between six and 30 days.

The researchers then followed all the patients for six months to see which patients suffered serious complications, were re-hospitalized or died from heart problems. Overall, there was no difference among the four groups, the researchers report in Saturday's issue of the Lancet medical journal.

The researchers did find evidence, however, suggesting that those receiving the MIT therapy experienced less distress before their procedures, and those who received both MIT therapy and the "high-dose" prayer may have been slightly less likely to die in the following six months. Those findings provide avenues for future research, Krucoff said.

The researchers acknowledged that it was impossible to make any firm conclusions because of the difficulty of studying something such as prayer. The study, for example, could not accurately measure factors as fundamental as the "dose" of prayer administered and could not account for the possible effects of family members praying for patients on their own, the researchers noted.

"I really don't want people to think we're dissing prayer," Krucoff said. "This study gives us a sense of where there might be therapeutic benefit that might be worth pursuing in future trials."

Skeptics, however, said they were far from surprised by the findings.

"There's nothing that we know in the universe that could account for how prayer or the healing intention of one group of people could influence the health outcomes of another group at a distance," said Richard P. Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia University Medical Center in New York. "It's preposterous."

But the Rev. Raymond J. Lawrence, director of pastoral care at New York Presbyterian Hospital, disputed any suggestion that the study disproved the power of prayer.

"Prayer can be and is helpful," Lawrence said. "But to think that you can research it is inconceivable to me. Prayer is presumably a way of addressing God, and there's no way to scientifically test God. God is not subject to scientific research."

Marilyn Schlitz of the Institute of Noetic Sciences in Petaluma, Calif., said the study showed the need for additional research. She is conducting a federally funded study testing the power of prayer to help wounds heal.

"The fact that the vast majority of people in this country make use of prayer or some type of compassionate intention really demands that we look at these phenomena with rigorous scientific perspective," she said.


Quote:
Duke University Press Release, 07/14/05: Results of First Multicenter Trial of Intercessory Prayer, Healing Touch in Heart Patients

DURHAM, N.C. - Distant prayer and the bedside use of music, imagery and touch (MIT therapy) did not have a significant effect upon the primary clinical outcome observed in patients undergoing certain heart procedures, researchers at Duke Clinical Research Institute (DCRI), Duke University Medical Center, the Durham Veterans Affairs Medical Center (VAMC) and seven other leading academic medical institutions across the U.S. have found ...


The Lancet Article (Download note: .pdf file)

The bottom line:

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/2750/prayertouchyfeelystudy0zm.jpg

While touchy-feely bedside therapies (Music-Imagery-Touch) appear to offer slight benefit in some cases, intercessory prayer was found to have no statistically significant effect on those in the study group.


The Bible, in both Old and New Testaments, is quite specific as to why and how prayer gets answered as well as the conditions under which it will not be answered.

Since this study is reported to have included Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist and various Christian groups, can you verify whether the Biblical instructions of the Old as well as the New Testament were or were not followed?
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 10:08 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
maporsche wrote:
I will from this day forth refer to Christianity as the "Theory of Christianity" or (ToC for short). Since believers in the Theory of Christianity ALWAYS refer to evolution as the Theory of Evolution (actually Theory is usually written like this "THEORY" when referring to evolution) I commit myself to doing the same.

Anyone else interested in changing the terminology used to discuss this Theory of Christianity.


OR....with all the death that has surrounded the Theory of Christianity in it's past it would be a fair statment to refer to the ToC as the Previously Corrupt and Murderous Christianity or PCaMC.


I'd love to sign on, Maporsche...but calling Christianity a "theory" is paying it too much respect and holding it in too high regard.



And Frank you "know" that right? Mr. agnostic knows exactly how much respect Christianity should be given?

Again a double standard... No one else can know what weight to place on Christianity but you...

You are one of the few that does NOT know yet you pretend and guess...

You speak with authority about something that you insist others should be mute...

What a hypocrite...

Also there are reasons why the effects of random prayer can not always be measured?

Most Christians don't even know how to pray...

Some Christians beg God and "lower" themselves to their knees as if they are unworthy, some erroneously pray to Jesus... and some just pray with negative believing...

If you have to ask God for the same thing more than once then you have indicated that you do not believe with faith.

There is positive and negative "believing".

There is prayer using fears, worries and doubts and prayer using faith, confidence and trust...

What is so shocking about all of these studies are that doctors just assume that Christians know HOW to pray effectively...

If they at least separated out the different approaches to prayer they might find that God never responds to negative believing.

To preface a prayer as please please please God bring such and such about or to preface a prayer thank-you God for such and such yet to come...

Some pray dear Jesus rather than we thank-you God...

When you pray to Jesus your prayers go up only so far then come back down void as if you had prayed to satan.

To pray for something and then to pray again for the same thing in a few minutes is to indicate you did not believe the first prayer was effective.

But to pray for something then to simply believe positively that it shall be done brings about a completely different result.

Most Christians are so ignorant on how to pray that non believers are more able to succeed in their needs and wants simply by the power of positive thinking...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 10:08 pm
RexRed wrote:
Christianity doesn't claim to be science...


Good thing, too . . . you can go ta Hell fer lyin' . . .
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 10:12 pm
Setanta wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Christianity doesn't claim to be science...


Good thing, too . . . you can go ta Hell fer lyin' . . .


Smile
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 10:16 pm
Setanta wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Christianity doesn't claim to be science...


Good thing, too . . . you can go ta Hell fer lyin' . . .


Christianity doesn't have to be science to be true.

When someone says, " I love you, " do you ask them to test and replicate that with an independent third party before you accept it as true?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 10:18 pm
Were i to tell someone "I love you," i'd have direct personal experience of whether or not it were true. This is below even your ordinarily feeble standards.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 10:40 pm
Setanta wrote:
Were i to tell someone "I love you," i'd have direct personal experience of whether or not it were true. This is below even your ordinarily feeble standards.


Just because you love your enemies does not mean you have to trust them...
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 10:42 pm
The whole thing seems rather subjective. Could either party be considered unbiased?
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 11:15 pm
RexRed wrote:
Also there are reasons why the effects of random prayer can not always be measured?

Most Christians don't even know how to pray...

Some Christians beg God and "lower" themselves to their knees as if they are unworthy, some erroneously pray to Jesus... and some just pray with negative believing...

If you have to ask God for the same thing more than once then you have indicated that you do not believe with faith.

There is positive and negative "believing".

There is prayer using fears, worries and doubts and prayer using faith, confidence and trust...

What is so shocking about all of these studies are that doctors just assume that Christians know HOW to pray effectively...

If they at least separated out the different approaches to prayer they might find that God never responds to negative believing.

To preface a prayer as please please please God bring such and such about or to preface a prayer thank-you God for such and such yet to come...

Some pray dear Jesus rather than we thank-you God...

When you pray to Jesus your prayers go up only so far then come back down void as if you had prayed to satan.

To pray for something and then to pray again for the same thing in a few minutes is to indicate you did not believe the first prayer was effective.

But to pray for something then to simply believe positively that it shall be done brings about a completely different result.

Most Christians are so ignorant on how to pray that non believers are more able to succeed in their needs and wants simply by the power of positive thinking...


Holy smokes RexRed, Do you think the whitehouse is aware of this? Maybe they are doing it all wrong and that is why things are AFU in Iraq
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 11:20 pm
mesquite wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Also there are reasons why the effects of random prayer can not always be measured?

Most Christians don't even know how to pray...

Some Christians beg God and "lower" themselves to their knees as if they are unworthy, some erroneously pray to Jesus... and some just pray with negative believing...

If you have to ask God for the same thing more than once then you have indicated that you do not believe with faith.

There is positive and negative "believing".

There is prayer using fears, worries and doubts and prayer using faith, confidence and trust...

What is so shocking about all of these studies are that doctors just assume that Christians know HOW to pray effectively...

If they at least separated out the different approaches to prayer they might find that God never responds to negative believing.

To preface a prayer as please please please God bring such and such about or to preface a prayer thank-you God for such and such yet to come...

Some pray dear Jesus rather than we thank-you God...

When you pray to Jesus your prayers go up only so far then come back down void as if you had prayed to satan.

To pray for something and then to pray again for the same thing in a few minutes is to indicate you did not believe the first prayer was effective.

But to pray for something then to simply believe positively that it shall be done brings about a completely different result.

Most Christians are so ignorant on how to pray that non believers are more able to succeed in their needs and wants simply by the power of positive thinking...


Holy smokes RexRed, Do you think the whitehouse is aware of this? Maybe they are doing it all wrong and that is why things are AFU in Iraq


You might ask yourself how effective your own prayers are before you attack another persons personal relationship with God.

One person can make a difference...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2005 02:22 am
real life wrote:
Setanta wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Christianity doesn't claim to be science...


Good thing, too . . . you can go ta Hell fer lyin' . . .


Christianity doesn't have to be science to be true.

When someone says, " I love you, " do you ask them to test and replicate that with an independent third party before you accept it as true?


I see you edited this to eliminate the incredible stupidity of the original questions to which i immediately responded. However, that doesn't fly here . . .

Quote:
The time and date stamp for your original drivel is: Posted: 19/8/2005, 11:16 pm Post: 1524608 -


Quote:
The time and date stamp for my reply is: Posted: 19/8/2005, 11:18 pm Post: 1524610 -


Quote:
The time and date stamp for your subquent edit is: Last edited by real life on 19/8/2005, 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total


You asked a ludicrously ill-conceived question, have gone back and blandly edited your entry, and now blithely behave as though you hadn't done any of that. Your original question was a non-sequitur in the first place, but you just can't give it up, it would hurt your pride too much.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2005 03:57 am
Setanta wrote:
real life wrote:
Setanta wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Christianity doesn't claim to be science...


Good thing, too . . . you can go ta Hell fer lyin' . . .


Christianity doesn't have to be science to be true.

When someone says, " I love you, " do you ask them to test and replicate that with an independent third party before you accept it as true?


I see you edited this to eliminate the incredible stupidity of the original questions to which i immediately responded. However, that doesn't fly here . . .

Quote:
The time and date stamp for your original drivel is: Posted: 19/8/2005, 11:16 pm Post: 1524608 -


Quote:
The time and date stamp for my reply is: Posted: 19/8/2005, 11:18 pm Post: 1524610 -


Quote:
The time and date stamp for your subquent edit is: Last edited by real life on 19/8/2005, 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total


You asked a ludicrously ill-conceived question, have gone back and blandly edited your entry, and now blithely behave as though you hadn't done any of that. Your original question was a non-sequitur in the first place, but you just can't give it up, it would hurt your pride too much.


Don't try to bullshyt Set, Life...you are way, way, way out of your league here!
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2005 08:46 am
RexRed wrote:
If you have to ask God for the same thing more than once then you have indicated that you do not believe with faith.
Why, then, does Jesus say "Keep on asking, and it will be given YOU; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to YOU" (Matthew 7:7)
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2005 09:26 am
It can also be a case of HOW you ask. How is the heart's attitude etc.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2005 09:51 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
Setanta wrote:
real life wrote:
Setanta wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Christianity doesn't claim to be science...


Good thing, too . . . you can go ta Hell fer lyin' . . .


Christianity doesn't have to be science to be true.

When someone says, " I love you, " do you ask them to test and replicate that with an independent third party before you accept it as true?


I see you edited this to eliminate the incredible stupidity of the original questions to which i immediately responded. However, that doesn't fly here . . .

Quote:
The time and date stamp for your original drivel is: Posted: 19/8/2005, 11:16 pm Post: 1524608 -


Quote:
The time and date stamp for my reply is: Posted: 19/8/2005, 11:18 pm Post: 1524610 -


Quote:
The time and date stamp for your subquent edit is: Last edited by real life on 19/8/2005, 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total


You asked a ludicrously ill-conceived question, have gone back and blandly edited your entry, and now blithely behave as though you hadn't done any of that. Your original question was a non-sequitur in the first place, but you just can't give it up, it would hurt your pride too much.


Don't try to bullshyt Set, Life...you are way, way, way out of your league here!


I don't think so...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2005 09:58 am
neologist wrote:
RexRed wrote:
If you have to ask God for the same thing more than once then you have indicated that you do not believe with faith.
Why, then, does Jesus say "Keep on asking, and it will be given YOU; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to YOU" (Matthew 7:7)


Mt 7:7 - Show Context
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:


Where does this "keep on asking" stuff come from? I would say a very poor translation...

Ask and believe...

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
0 Replies
 
 

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