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Which Religion is the One True Religion?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 04:50 am
real life wrote:
My point regarding Ideas was exactly that.

If Thought itself can originate without any empirical data or experience to base it on, then where does it come from?

And if it is seen to produce great good, such as an invention, it can hardly be ascribed to random chemical processes in the brain. (But I guess if you are an evolutionist, then random processes account for all kinds of highly complex and organized information assembling itself by sheer luck.)

Reason, as well as Thought, can transcend experience. If so, then is it not possible that much else is outside the empirical playpen that Timber wishes to leave Mankind in?


Another typical exercise in both fuzzy-thinking and willful deception. I am not an "evolutionist." There is no such thing as an "evolutionist." A theory of evolution is not a dogmatic belief, as is a religion. There is absolutely no reason to assume that thought which "originate[s] without any empirical data or experience to base it on" has any value, so you're completely incorrect in stating that: "My point regarding Ideas was exactly that." That's the RexRed school of concept promulgation--if i can think of it, it must be so. The point about what children are able to imagine, which is quite different than your silly contention, is that children lack experience and knowledge with which to form useful thoughts about those things of which they are ignorant, and instead take cousel of their hopes and fears, any resemblence to reality being a coincidental fluke. Which describes very nicely the orgin of theism and the rise of theology.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 06:07 am
and why in my opinion peddling myth legend as fact to immature minds is nothing short of child abuse.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 06:48 am
A form of child abuse which is unlikely to end any time soon, more's the pity.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 07:43 am
Indeed. As a child when I found out Father Christmas did not exist, I was very upset. In fact I'm still pretty pi**ed off about it now, though reconciled to it.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 07:49 am
The mantra for good little Catholic toddlers was: Why did God make you? -- To know him and love him in Heaven. Apart from the obvious selfishness implicit in such a contention, we had that drilled into us by the Irish nuns of the Brothers and Sisters of Charity, a gross misnomer if ever there was one. Corporal punishment, swift and brutal, awaited any confused or inattentive little one who didn't get it right the first time. I credit the tender ministations of my Hibernian sisters with setting me on the path of irreligion at an early age.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 08:30 am
Smile
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 08:48 am
Well despite all, we can give thanks that you turned out ok.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 08:49 am
You are very kind, and, i would suggest, the holder of a minority opinion on that subject.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 08:56 am
Setanta wrote:
You are very kind, and, i would suggest, the holder of a minority opinion on that subject.


I agree with Steve!
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 09:03 am
A chap I met at university described his Jesuit schooling to me. I was genuinely shocked, not least at his vitriolic language reserved for certain Brothers. Sadistic bastards was about the kindest.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 09:05 am
"I agree with Steve!"

So thats sorted then Set. By a majority of 2:1 you are officially ok.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 09:06 am
Setanta wrote:
You are very kind, and, i would suggest, the holder of a minority opinion on that subject.
And I agree with you, Set. Smile
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 09:07 am
neologist wrote:
Setanta wrote:
You are very kind, and, i would suggest, the holder of a minority opinion on that subject.
And I agree with you, Set. Smile


In he interest of "credit where credit is due"...that was clever.
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RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 09:11 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Setanta wrote:
You must have a very limited understanding of the workings of imagination. Chidren routinely stare into the dark and populate it with all sorts of monstrous products of their fears.


Many of the fears of children are rational...

Some people CAN be monsters and children use their fears as a protective mechanism...

Just because mommy says there is no boogie man does not make it so...

To ignore this possible danger would be "naive".

The same goes for spiritual naivety in adults...



Wow...here is some wonderful Christian reasoning.

I guess we all have to be careful of boogiemen.


Yes Frank, the Dennis Raiders that parade themselves off as kind loving Christians... so they can BTK.

And there is no devil?

Don't you get sand in your eyes?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 09:16 am
RexRed wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Setanta wrote:
You must have a very limited understanding of the workings of imagination. Chidren routinely stare into the dark and populate it with all sorts of monstrous products of their fears.


Many of the fears of children are rational...

Some people CAN be monsters and children use their fears as a protective mechanism...

Just because mommy says there is no boogie man does not make it so...

To ignore this possible danger would be "naive".

The same goes for spiritual naivety in adults...



Wow...here is some wonderful Christian reasoning.

I guess we all have to be careful of boogiemen.


Yes Frank, the Dennis Raiders that parade themselves off as kind loving Christians... so they can BTK.

And there is no devil?

Don't you get sand in your eyes?


Take your meds, Rex. This last post makes much less sense than usual...not that you make much sense at any time.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 09:34 am
My sister visited yesterday because she wanted assistance to complete her 2004 income tax returns, and we discussed religion; the christian religion. She said she shouldn't judge, but it's her opinion that the majority of people who call themselves christian really are not. She's involved with a political group in Sacramento, and five christian ministers are also active. She said it's her opinion that ouf of the five ministers, only two are real christians.

I also challenged her about "god's love for humans" by addressing the fact that I can find more verses in the bible that speaks of a jealous, vengeful, approves of killing others, and hell-fire for those who do not believe for every "god is love" verse. She recanted.

She still believes in the power of prayer, and prays for all of her brothers - including me.

What can I say?
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RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 09:46 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
My sister visited yesterday because she wanted assistance to complete her 2004 income tax returns, and we discussed religion; the christian religion. She said she shouldn't judge, but it's her opinion that the majority of people who call themselves christian really are not. She's involved with a political group in Sacramento, and five christian ministers are also active. She said it's her opinion that ouf of the five ministers, only two are real christians.

I also challenged her about "god's love for humans" by addressing the fact that I can find more verses in the bible that speaks of a jealous, vengeful, approves of killing others, and hell-fire for those who do not believe for every "god is love" verse. She recanted.

She still believes in the power of prayer, and prays for all of her brothers - including me.

What can I say?


You can say, your sister is right on the money...

I don't mean that (money) in a monetary way... but figurative.

Like hitting the nail on the head... Smile
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 11:35 am
A bit of empirical data relevant to the "Power of Prayer":

Quote:
Prayer's Power to Heal Strangers Is Examined
Cardiac Patients in New Study Fared No Better With Spiritual Intercession


By Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, July 15, 2005; A08



Praying for sick strangers does not improve their prospects of recovering, according to a large, carefully designed study that casts doubt on the widely held belief that being prayed for can help a person heal.

The study of more than 700 heart patients, one of the most ambitious attempts to test the medicinal power of prayer, showed that those who had people praying for them from a distance, and without their knowledge, were no less likely to suffer a major complication, end up back in the hospital or die.

While skeptics of prayer welcomed the results, other researchers questioned the findings, and proponents of prayer maintained that God's influence lies beyond the reach of scientific validation.

Surveys have shown that millions of Americans routinely pray when they are ill or when someone they know is. A growing body of evidence has found that religious people tend to be healthier than average, and that people who pray when they are ill are likely to fare better than those who do not. Many researchers think religious belief and practice can help people by providing social support and fostering positive emotions, which may produce beneficial responses by the body.

But the idea that praying for someone else -- even when he or she is unaware of it -- can affect a person's health has been much more controversial. Several studies have purported to show that such prayer is beneficial, but they have been criticized as deeply flawed. The debate prompted a spate of new studies aimed at avoiding those shortcomings, including the new study, which is the first to test prayer at multiple centers.

For the Mantra II study, Mitchell W. Krucoff, a cardiologist at Duke University Medical Center in Durham, N.C., and his colleagues designed an experiment involving 748 patients who underwent treatment for heart problems at nine hospitals around the country between 1999 and 2002.

The researchers enlisted 12 congregations of various Christian denominations, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists around the world to pray for some of the patients, giving them names, ages and descriptions of the illness. The researchers then divided the patients into four groups. The first quarter had people praying for them. The second quarter received a nontraditional treatment known as music, imagery and touch (MIT) therapy, which involved breathing techniques, soothing music, touch and other ways to relieve stress, such as calming mental images. The third group received both prayer and MIT, while the fourth received nothing.

In the final year of the study, the researchers took the additional step of asking more religious congregations to pray for the prayers of the initial group to work. Neither the patients nor their doctors knew whether someone was praying for them. The prayers varied depending on the religion, lasting between six and 30 days.

The researchers then followed all the patients for six months to see which patients suffered serious complications, were re-hospitalized or died from heart problems. Overall, there was no difference among the four groups, the researchers report in Saturday's issue of the Lancet medical journal.

The researchers did find evidence, however, suggesting that those receiving the MIT therapy experienced less distress before their procedures, and those who received both MIT therapy and the "high-dose" prayer may have been slightly less likely to die in the following six months. Those findings provide avenues for future research, Krucoff said.

The researchers acknowledged that it was impossible to make any firm conclusions because of the difficulty of studying something such as prayer. The study, for example, could not accurately measure factors as fundamental as the "dose" of prayer administered and could not account for the possible effects of family members praying for patients on their own, the researchers noted.

"I really don't want people to think we're dissing prayer," Krucoff said. "This study gives us a sense of where there might be therapeutic benefit that might be worth pursuing in future trials."

Skeptics, however, said they were far from surprised by the findings.

"There's nothing that we know in the universe that could account for how prayer or the healing intention of one group of people could influence the health outcomes of another group at a distance," said Richard P. Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia University Medical Center in New York. "It's preposterous."

But the Rev. Raymond J. Lawrence, director of pastoral care at New York Presbyterian Hospital, disputed any suggestion that the study disproved the power of prayer.

"Prayer can be and is helpful," Lawrence said. "But to think that you can research it is inconceivable to me. Prayer is presumably a way of addressing God, and there's no way to scientifically test God. God is not subject to scientific research."

Marilyn Schlitz of the Institute of Noetic Sciences in Petaluma, Calif., said the study showed the need for additional research. She is conducting a federally funded study testing the power of prayer to help wounds heal.

"The fact that the vast majority of people in this country make use of prayer or some type of compassionate intention really demands that we look at these phenomena with rigorous scientific perspective," she said.


Quote:
Duke University Press Release, 07/14/05: Results of First Multicenter Trial of Intercessory Prayer, Healing Touch in Heart Patients

DURHAM, N.C. - Distant prayer and the bedside use of music, imagery and touch (MIT therapy) did not have a significant effect upon the primary clinical outcome observed in patients undergoing certain heart procedures, researchers at Duke Clinical Research Institute (DCRI), Duke University Medical Center, the Durham Veterans Affairs Medical Center (VAMC) and seven other leading academic medical institutions across the U.S. have found ...


The Lancet Article (Download note: .pdf file)

The bottom line:

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/2750/prayertouchyfeelystudy0zm.jpg

While touchy-feely bedside therapies (Music-Imagery-Touch) appear to offer slight benefit in some cases, intercessory prayer was found to have no statistically significant effect on those in the study group.
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maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 01:29 pm
I will from this day forth refer to Christianity as the "Theory of Christianity" or (ToC for short). Since believers in the Theory of Christianity ALWAYS refer to evolution as the Theory of Evolution (actually Theory is usually written like this "THEORY" when referring to evolution) I commit myself to doing the same.

Anyone else interested in changing the terminology used to discuss this Theory of Christianity.


OR....with all the death that has surrounded the Theory of Christianity in it's past it would be a fair statment to refer to the ToC as the Previously Corrupt and Murderous Christianity or PCaMC.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 02:11 pm
maporsche wrote:
I will from this day forth refer to Christianity as the "Theory of Christianity" or (ToC for short). Since believers in the Theory of Christianity ALWAYS refer to evolution as the Theory of Evolution (actually Theory is usually written like this "THEORY" when referring to evolution) I commit myself to doing the same.

Anyone else interested in changing the terminology used to discuss this Theory of Christianity.


OR....with all the death that has surrounded the Theory of Christianity in it's past it would be a fair statment to refer to the ToC as the Previously Corrupt and Murderous Christianity or PCaMC.


I'd love to sign on, Maporsche...but calling Christianity a "theory" is paying it too much respect and holding it in too high regard.

That being said (and since I am such a softy) I may use the expression from time to time. Thanks for suggesting it.
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