Oh, I know, c.i. ...
The fact remains that is the key question in this discussion, the foundation of this discussion, and the fact remains it has been neither answered nor even honestly addressed.
real life wrote:maporsche wrote:RexRed wrote:
I suppose non-christians, few as they may be, are perfect angels... especially democrats.
First off, not that it matters, much of the population is "non-christian". There are millions of people who label themselves as "christian" but are not living the life a "good christian" should. They will die with sin on their heart and go to hell, same as you. I don't think it's possible to die with a clean soul, you'd have to repent the second before you death.
Someone stated that the soul goes to heaven because its reached perfection. Someone explain exactly how that is.
Second off, since you bring politics into this, show me where in the New Testament it says to bomb your neighbors (worldly neighbors, Iraq), MURDER innocent children (out of the womb, Iraq), and ignore and spit on the poor in the country (poor healthcare & rising costs & reduced coverage, ineffective welfare system, lowering taxes on the richest Americans, and creating fewer jobs (our unemployement is over 5%, with Clinton it was under 4%).
I know that I read Jesus say that somewhere, didn't I? Oh and don't even try to bring OT LAWS into this debate, you've repeated OVER AND OVER that those LAWS no longer apply, and that only what Jesus said applies. So defend those republican positions/actions with Jesus' words.
Do I understand you to say that Christians err because they do not have political positions that fulfill the commands of Jesus to feed the poor, care for the sick, etc ?
Are you saying that the government of the US should be fulfilling these commands of Christ?
I thought you were all for separation of church and state?
-----------------
Or would you prefer to discuss Iraq since you mentioned it twice? Saddam Hussein and his sons caused mass graves to be dug in Iraq with thousands of innocent victims. One notable method of torture was to run opponents thru the plastic shredder. Dismemberment and sending the body parts to the widow were also frequent favs. Are you saying that it is immoral to oppose such behavior?
Many innocent civilians unfortunately died in WWII while bringing the era of Hitler to a close. Tens of thousands , in fact.
Innocent civilians have lost their lives in Iraq also, no question. However, many more were brutally murdered under Hussein each year. The gassing of the Kurds comes to mind as another example.
Are you suggesting that Christians, in order to be true to Christ, must turn a blind eye to brutal regimes such as Iraq that murder their own people and are a danger to the world? Hussein's sponsorship of terrorism is well known and his stockpile of 500 tons of uranium just prior to the war is, as any reasonable person could see, NOT an indication of benign intent.
---------------------------
So go for it, maporsche. Either issue is open. You want the government to be the church? Or you want to defend Saddam's right to rule?
I NEVER suggested ANYTHING you just posted. Stop putting words into everyone's mouth. It's pathetic. But to answer your questions 1) No & 2) No.
RexRed stated that Democrat Non-Religionists were "perfect-angels" (sarcastically).
I was pointing out that the SELF-PROCLAIMED religious right were indeed NOT FOLLOWING the laws that Jesus gave to Christians. I was pointing out that they (and apparently YOU) are HYPOCRITES! Jesus would not have ordered Saddam Hussian to be captured, would he? Answer that question, WWJD? To claim to be a follower of Christ (religious right) and have actions that are in direct contridiction to the teachings of your Christ is hypocritical. Is it not?
Questions for you to answer (to keep it simple for you).
1. Would Jesus have killed the innocent Iraqi's to remove Saddam from power?
2. Would Jesus have ordered his followers (Christian's) to remove Saddam?
3. Would Jesus be pleased with money being taken away from the poor and given to the rich?
4. Would you please show me where Jesus said to bomb your enemies and take money from the poor?
real life wrote:maporsche wrote:RexRed wrote:
I suppose non-christians, few as they may be, are perfect angels... especially democrats.
First off, not that it matters, much of the population is "non-christian". There are millions of people who label themselves as "christian" but are not living the life a "good christian" should. They will die with sin on their heart and go to hell, same as you. I don't think it's possible to die with a clean soul, you'd have to repent the second before you death.
Someone stated that the soul goes to heaven because its reached perfection. Someone explain exactly how that is.
Second off, since you bring politics into this, show me where in the New Testament it says to bomb your neighbors (worldly neighbors, Iraq), MURDER innocent children (out of the womb, Iraq), and ignore and spit on the poor in the country (poor healthcare & rising costs & reduced coverage, ineffective welfare system, lowering taxes on the richest Americans, and creating fewer jobs (our unemployement is over 5%, with Clinton it was under 4%).
I know that I read Jesus say that somewhere, didn't I? Oh and don't even try to bring OT LAWS into this debate, you've repeated OVER AND OVER that those LAWS no longer apply, and that only what Jesus said applies. So defend those republican positions/actions with Jesus' words.
Do I understand you to say that Christians err because they do not have political positions that fulfill the commands of Jesus to feed the poor, care for the sick, etc ?
Are you saying that the government of the US should be fulfilling these commands of Christ?
I thought you were all for separation of church and state?
-----------------
Or would you prefer to discuss Iraq since you mentioned it twice? Saddam Hussein and his sons caused mass graves to be dug in Iraq with thousands of innocent victims. One notable method of torture was to run opponents thru the plastic shredder. Dismemberment and sending the body parts to the widow were also frequent favs. Are you saying that it is immoral to oppose such behavior?
Many innocent civilians unfortunately died in WWII while bringing the era of Hitler to a close. Tens of thousands , in fact.
Innocent civilians have lost their lives in Iraq also, no question. However, many more were brutally murdered under Hussein each year. The gassing of the Kurds comes to mind as another example.
Are you suggesting that Christians, in order to be true to Christ, must turn a blind eye to brutal regimes such as Iraq that murder their own people and are a danger to the world? Hussein's sponsorship of terrorism is well known and his stockpile of 500 tons of uranium just prior to the war is, as any reasonable person could see, NOT an indication of benign intent.
---------------------------
So go for it, maporsche. Either issue is open. You want the government to be the church? Or you want to defend Saddam's right to rule?
I NEVER suggested ANYTHING you just posted. Stop putting words into everyone's mouth. It's pathetic. But to answer your questions 1) No & 2) No.
RexRed stated that Democrat Non-Religionists were "perfect-angels" (sarcastically).
I was pointing out that the SELF-PROCLAIMED religious right were indeed NOT FOLLOWING the laws that Jesus gave to Christians. I was pointing out that they (and apparently YOU) are HYPOCRITES! Jesus would not have ordered Saddam Hussian to be captured, would he? Answer that question, WWJD? To claim to be a follower of Christ (religious right) and have actions that are in direct contridiction to the teachings of your Christ is hypocritical. Is it not?
Questions for you to answer (to keep it simple for you).
1. Would Jesus have killed the innocent Iraqi's to remove Saddam from power?
2. Would Jesus have ordered his followers (Christian's) to remove Saddam, knowing that innocents would be killed?
3. Would Jesus be pleased with money being taken away from the poor and given to the rich?
4. Would you please show me where Jesus said to bomb your enemies and take money from the poor?
Rex, your accusations fall as flat as your attempts to validate your proposition. I say agaiun, you are preaching, proselytizing, and parroting, that precisely, and nothing but. I note too that when substantively challenged, your resort is to attack, employing avoidance, mischaracterization, projection, transferance, label-mongering, and denial. Your responses present not argument but arrogance and agenda.
You, as is anyone, are perfectly welcome to believe what and as you wish, and just as perfectly welcome to discuss - even promote - those beliefs. However, if you wish others, particularly those not inclined as yourself, to take seriously what you have to say, then teach, don't preach. Explain, don't disclaim. Postulate and propose, don't pontificate. To this point in this discussion, you have not addressed the issue at discussion. Your manner of discourse here casts both your proposition and yourself as laughingstock. You are your own most effective opponent.
In case it has slipped your mind, I point again to the question which is at square one here - what about the Abrahamic mythopaeia validates it - let alone elevates its Protestant Christian subset above any competing theo-philosophic myth system? What, apart from conviction and passion on the parts of its adherents, differentiates it, or any of them, from superstition?
maporsche wrote:real life wrote:maporsche wrote:RexRed wrote:
I suppose non-christians, few as they may be, are perfect angels... especially democrats.
First off, not that it matters, much of the population is "non-christian". There are millions of people who label themselves as "christian" but are not living the life a "good christian" should. They will die with sin on their heart and go to hell, same as you. I don't think it's possible to die with a clean soul, you'd have to repent the second before you death.
Someone stated that the soul goes to heaven because its reached perfection. Someone explain exactly how that is.
Second off, since you bring politics into this, show me where in the New Testament it says to bomb your neighbors (worldly neighbors, Iraq), MURDER innocent children (out of the womb, Iraq), and ignore and spit on the poor in the country (poor healthcare & rising costs & reduced coverage, ineffective welfare system, lowering taxes on the richest Americans, and creating fewer jobs (our unemployement is over 5%, with Clinton it was under 4%).
I know that I read Jesus say that somewhere, didn't I? Oh and don't even try to bring OT LAWS into this debate, you've repeated OVER AND OVER that those LAWS no longer apply, and that only what Jesus said applies. So defend those republican positions/actions with Jesus' words.
Do I understand you to say that Christians err because they do not have political positions that fulfill the commands of Jesus to feed the poor, care for the sick, etc ?
Are you saying that the government of the US should be fulfilling these commands of Christ?
I thought you were all for separation of church and state?
-----------------
Or would you prefer to discuss Iraq since you mentioned it twice? Saddam Hussein and his sons caused mass graves to be dug in Iraq with thousands of innocent victims. One notable method of torture was to run opponents thru the plastic shredder. Dismemberment and sending the body parts to the widow were also frequent favs. Are you saying that it is immoral to oppose such behavior?
Many innocent civilians unfortunately died in WWII while bringing the era of Hitler to a close. Tens of thousands , in fact.
Innocent civilians have lost their lives in Iraq also, no question. However, many more were brutally murdered under Hussein each year. The gassing of the Kurds comes to mind as another example.
Are you suggesting that Christians, in order to be true to Christ, must turn a blind eye to brutal regimes such as Iraq that murder their own people and are a danger to the world? Hussein's sponsorship of terrorism is well known and his stockpile of 500 tons of uranium just prior to the war is, as any reasonable person could see, NOT an indication of benign intent.
---------------------------
So go for it, maporsche. Either issue is open. You want the government to be the church? Or you want to defend Saddam's right to rule?
I NEVER suggested ANYTHING you just posted. Stop putting words into everyone's mouth. It's pathetic. But to answer your questions 1) No & 2) No.
RexRed stated that Democrat Non-Religionists were "perfect-angels" (sarcastically).
I was pointing out that the SELF-PROCLAIMED religious right were indeed NOT FOLLOWING the laws that Jesus gave to Christians. I was pointing out that they (and apparently YOU) are HYPOCRITES! Jesus would not have ordered Saddam Hussian to be captured, would he? Answer that question, WWJD? To claim to be a follower of Christ (religious right) and have actions that are in direct contridiction to the teachings of your Christ is hypocritical. Is it not?
Questions for you to answer (to keep it simple for you).
1. Would Jesus have killed the innocent Iraqi's to remove Saddam from power?
2. Would Jesus have ordered his followers (Christian's) to remove Saddam, knowing that innocents would be killed?
3. Would Jesus be pleased with money being taken away from the poor and given to the rich?
4. Would you please show me where Jesus said to bomb your enemies and take money from the poor?
Yes let's keep it simple:
If you want the government to fulfill the commands of Christ and provide for the poor and care for the ill, then you are not keeping church and state separate, are you?
maporsche wrote:real life wrote:maporsche wrote:RexRed wrote:
I suppose non-christians, few as they may be, are perfect angels... especially democrats.
First off, not that it matters, much of the population is "non-christian". There are millions of people who label themselves as "christian" but are not living the life a "good christian" should. They will die with sin on their heart and go to hell, same as you. I don't think it's possible to die with a clean soul, you'd have to repent the second before you death.
Someone stated that the soul goes to heaven because its reached perfection. Someone explain exactly how that is.
Second off, since you bring politics into this, show me where in the New Testament it says to bomb your neighbors (worldly neighbors, Iraq), MURDER innocent children (out of the womb, Iraq), and ignore and spit on the poor in the country (poor healthcare & rising costs & reduced coverage, ineffective welfare system, lowering taxes on the richest Americans, and creating fewer jobs (our unemployement is over 5%, with Clinton it was under 4%).
I know that I read Jesus say that somewhere, didn't I? Oh and don't even try to bring OT LAWS into this debate, you've repeated OVER AND OVER that those LAWS no longer apply, and that only what Jesus said applies. So defend those republican positions/actions with Jesus' words.
Do I understand you to say that Christians err because they do not have political positions that fulfill the commands of Jesus to feed the poor, care for the sick, etc ?
Are you saying that the government of the US should be fulfilling these commands of Christ?
I thought you were all for separation of church and state?
-----------------
Or would you prefer to discuss Iraq since you mentioned it twice? Saddam Hussein and his sons caused mass graves to be dug in Iraq with thousands of innocent victims. One notable method of torture was to run opponents thru the plastic shredder. Dismemberment and sending the body parts to the widow were also frequent favs. Are you saying that it is immoral to oppose such behavior?
Many innocent civilians unfortunately died in WWII while bringing the era of Hitler to a close. Tens of thousands , in fact.
Innocent civilians have lost their lives in Iraq also, no question. However, many more were brutally murdered under Hussein each year. The gassing of the Kurds comes to mind as another example.
Are you suggesting that Christians, in order to be true to Christ, must turn a blind eye to brutal regimes such as Iraq that murder their own people and are a danger to the world? Hussein's sponsorship of terrorism is well known and his stockpile of 500 tons of uranium just prior to the war is, as any reasonable person could see, NOT an indication of benign intent.
---------------------------
So go for it, maporsche. Either issue is open. You want the government to be the church? Or you want to defend Saddam's right to rule?
I NEVER suggested ANYTHING you just posted. Stop putting words into everyone's mouth. It's pathetic. But to answer your questions 1) No & 2) No.
RexRed stated that Democrat Non-Religionists were "perfect-angels" (sarcastically).
I was pointing out that the SELF-PROCLAIMED religious right were indeed NOT FOLLOWING the laws that Jesus gave to Christians. I was pointing out that they (and apparently YOU) are HYPOCRITES! Jesus would not have ordered Saddam Hussian to be captured, would he? Answer that question, WWJD? To claim to be a follower of Christ (religious right) and have actions that are in direct contridiction to the teachings of your Christ is hypocritical. Is it not?
Questions for you to answer (to keep it simple for you).
1. Would Jesus have killed the innocent Iraqi's to remove Saddam from power?
2. Would Jesus have ordered his followers (Christian's) to remove Saddam?
3. Would Jesus be pleased with money being taken away from the poor and given to the rich?
4. Would you please show me where Jesus said to bomb your enemies and take money from the poor?
Can you show me where Jesus said let your enemies walk all over you?
Romans 8:37
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Show me a place where God told king David/Solomon/Samuel etc... to let the enemy conquer his people...
Show me a place where God told his people to "reduce" their weapons and armies...
timberlandko wrote:Oh, I know, c.i. ...
The fact remains that is the key question in this discussion, the foundation of this discussion, and the fact remains it has been neither answered nor even honestly addressed.
You are correct when you state that you have not honestly addressed the question to anyone.
Your continual attempt to frame any question in terms of Christian "myth" deserves the scorn it receives, Timber.
It is akin to asking "And when did you stop beating your wife, Timber? " or "Why do you believe stupid things, Timber?"
If you want to ask an honest question and engage in honest debate, do so. If you are saddened that others won't be easily baited by your lame mischaracterizations, that's too bad.
real life wrote:maporsche wrote:real life wrote:maporsche wrote:RexRed wrote:
I suppose non-christians, few as they may be, are perfect angels... especially democrats.
First off, not that it matters, much of the population is "non-christian". There are millions of people who label themselves as "christian" but are not living the life a "good christian" should. They will die with sin on their heart and go to hell, same as you. I don't think it's possible to die with a clean soul, you'd have to repent the second before you death.
Someone stated that the soul goes to heaven because its reached perfection. Someone explain exactly how that is.
Second off, since you bring politics into this, show me where in the New Testament it says to bomb your neighbors (worldly neighbors, Iraq), MURDER innocent children (out of the womb, Iraq), and ignore and spit on the poor in the country (poor healthcare & rising costs & reduced coverage, ineffective welfare system, lowering taxes on the richest Americans, and creating fewer jobs (our unemployement is over 5%, with Clinton it was under 4%).
I know that I read Jesus say that somewhere, didn't I? Oh and don't even try to bring OT LAWS into this debate, you've repeated OVER AND OVER that those LAWS no longer apply, and that only what Jesus said applies. So defend those republican positions/actions with Jesus' words.
Do I understand you to say that Christians err because they do not have political positions that fulfill the commands of Jesus to feed the poor, care for the sick, etc ?
Are you saying that the government of the US should be fulfilling these commands of Christ?
I thought you were all for separation of church and state?
-----------------
Or would you prefer to discuss Iraq since you mentioned it twice? Saddam Hussein and his sons caused mass graves to be dug in Iraq with thousands of innocent victims. One notable method of torture was to run opponents thru the plastic shredder. Dismemberment and sending the body parts to the widow were also frequent favs. Are you saying that it is immoral to oppose such behavior?
Many innocent civilians unfortunately died in WWII while bringing the era of Hitler to a close. Tens of thousands , in fact.
Innocent civilians have lost their lives in Iraq also, no question. However, many more were brutally murdered under Hussein each year. The gassing of the Kurds comes to mind as another example.
Are you suggesting that Christians, in order to be true to Christ, must turn a blind eye to brutal regimes such as Iraq that murder their own people and are a danger to the world? Hussein's sponsorship of terrorism is well known and his stockpile of 500 tons of uranium just prior to the war is, as any reasonable person could see, NOT an indication of benign intent.
---------------------------
So go for it, maporsche. Either issue is open. You want the government to be the church? Or you want to defend Saddam's right to rule?
I NEVER suggested ANYTHING you just posted. Stop putting words into everyone's mouth. It's pathetic. But to answer your questions 1) No & 2) No.
RexRed stated that Democrat Non-Religionists were "perfect-angels" (sarcastically).
I was pointing out that the SELF-PROCLAIMED religious right were indeed NOT FOLLOWING the laws that Jesus gave to Christians. I was pointing out that they (and apparently YOU) are HYPOCRITES! Jesus would not have ordered Saddam Hussian to be captured, would he? Answer that question, WWJD? To claim to be a follower of Christ (religious right) and have actions that are in direct contridiction to the teachings of your Christ is hypocritical. Is it not?
Questions for you to answer (to keep it simple for you).
1. Would Jesus have killed the innocent Iraqi's to remove Saddam from power?
2. Would Jesus have ordered his followers (Christian's) to remove Saddam, knowing that innocents would be killed?
3. Would Jesus be pleased with money being taken away from the poor and given to the rich?
4. Would you please show me where Jesus said to bomb your enemies and take money from the poor?
Yes let's keep it simple:
If you want the government to fulfill the commands of Christ and provide for the poor and care for the ill, then you are not keeping church and state separate, are you?
I'd like to point out that you are ignorning my questions.
To answer your's.
I do want the government to provide for the poor and care for the ill, NOT because it would fulfill the commands of Christ, but because it's the compassionate, human thing to do. As far as providing for the poor, there are limitations, as far as caring for the ill, healthcare IS a basic human need/right.
So yes, you can care for the poor/ill and keep Church/State seperate.
Now, I would appreciate answers to my questions.
Even Jesus got fed up and whipped the money changers in the Temple!
Intrepid wrote:Even Jesus got fed up and whipped the money changers in the Temple!
You're right....that's exactly the same a BOMBING and KILLING and BURNING them.
Intrepid wrote:Even Jesus got fed up and whipped the money changers in the Temple!
You're right....that's exactly the same a BOMBING and KILLING and BURNING them.
maporsche wrote:real life wrote:maporsche wrote:real life wrote:maporsche wrote:RexRed wrote:
I suppose non-christians, few as they may be, are perfect angels... especially democrats.
First off, not that it matters, much of the population is "non-christian". There are millions of people who label themselves as "christian" but are not living the life a "good christian" should. They will die with sin on their heart and go to hell, same as you. I don't think it's possible to die with a clean soul, you'd have to repent the second before you death.
Someone stated that the soul goes to heaven because its reached perfection. Someone explain exactly how that is.
Second off, since you bring politics into this, show me where in the New Testament it says to bomb your neighbors (worldly neighbors, Iraq), MURDER innocent children (out of the womb, Iraq), and ignore and spit on the poor in the country (poor healthcare & rising costs & reduced coverage, ineffective welfare system, lowering taxes on the richest Americans, and creating fewer jobs (our unemployement is over 5%, with Clinton it was under 4%).
I know that I read Jesus say that somewhere, didn't I? Oh and don't even try to bring OT LAWS into this debate, you've repeated OVER AND OVER that those LAWS no longer apply, and that only what Jesus said applies. So defend those republican positions/actions with Jesus' words.
Do I understand you to say that Christians err because they do not have political positions that fulfill the commands of Jesus to feed the poor, care for the sick, etc ?
Are you saying that the government of the US should be fulfilling these commands of Christ?
I thought you were all for separation of church and state?
-----------------
Or would you prefer to discuss Iraq since you mentioned it twice? Saddam Hussein and his sons caused mass graves to be dug in Iraq with thousands of innocent victims. One notable method of torture was to run opponents thru the plastic shredder. Dismemberment and sending the body parts to the widow were also frequent favs. Are you saying that it is immoral to oppose such behavior?
Many innocent civilians unfortunately died in WWII while bringing the era of Hitler to a close. Tens of thousands , in fact.
Innocent civilians have lost their lives in Iraq also, no question. However, many more were brutally murdered under Hussein each year. The gassing of the Kurds comes to mind as another example.
Are you suggesting that Christians, in order to be true to Christ, must turn a blind eye to brutal regimes such as Iraq that murder their own people and are a danger to the world? Hussein's sponsorship of terrorism is well known and his stockpile of 500 tons of uranium just prior to the war is, as any reasonable person could see, NOT an indication of benign intent.
---------------------------
So go for it, maporsche. Either issue is open. You want the government to be the church? Or you want to defend Saddam's right to rule?
I NEVER suggested ANYTHING you just posted. Stop putting words into everyone's mouth. It's pathetic. But to answer your questions 1) No & 2) No.
RexRed stated that Democrat Non-Religionists were "perfect-angels" (sarcastically).
I was pointing out that the SELF-PROCLAIMED religious right were indeed NOT FOLLOWING the laws that Jesus gave to Christians. I was pointing out that they (and apparently YOU) are HYPOCRITES! Jesus would not have ordered Saddam Hussian to be captured, would he? Answer that question, WWJD? To claim to be a follower of Christ (religious right) and have actions that are in direct contridiction to the teachings of your Christ is hypocritical. Is it not?
Questions for you to answer (to keep it simple for you).
1. Would Jesus have killed the innocent Iraqi's to remove Saddam from power?
2. Would Jesus have ordered his followers (Christian's) to remove Saddam, knowing that innocents would be killed?
3. Would Jesus be pleased with money being taken away from the poor and given to the rich?
4. Would you please show me where Jesus said to bomb your enemies and take money from the poor?
Yes let's keep it simple:
If you want the government to fulfill the commands of Christ and provide for the poor and care for the ill, then you are not keeping church and state separate, are you?
I'd like to point out that you are ignorning my questions.
To answer your's.
I do want the government to provide for the poor and care for the ill, NOT because it would fulfill the commands of Christ, but because it's the compassionate, human thing to do. As far as providing for the poor, there are limitations, as far as caring for the ill, healthcare IS a basic human need/right.
So yes, you can care for the poor/ill and keep Church/State seperate.
Now, I would appreciate answers to my questions.
Actually it is the churches in this country that care for many of the poor the Catholic Charities and protestant donations to shelters...
When was the last time you volunteered to help out at your local soup kitchen?
When was the last time you had homeless people from the gutter sleep over at your house?
Christians are doing this sort of thing every day...
I know I have witnessed it first hand...
Where are the liberal charities?
maporsche wrote:Intrepid wrote:Even Jesus got fed up and whipped the money changers in the Temple!
You're right....that's exactly the same a BOMBING and KILLING and BURNING them.
Maybe in your world. A good wuppin isn't exactly like bombing and killing and burning. When I was a boy, we would call you a dirty fighter.
The "liberal" Roman guards sodomized Jesus...
Maybe Mel should have included that in "The Passion"...
Intrepid wrote:maporsche wrote:Intrepid wrote:Even Jesus got fed up and whipped the money changers in the Temple!
You're right....that's exactly the same a BOMBING and KILLING and BURNING them.
Maybe in your world. A good wuppin isn't exactly like bombing and killing and burning. When I was a boy, we would call you a dirty fighter.
I think you missed my point...please re-read assuming sarcasm.
RexRed wrote:maporsche wrote:real life wrote:maporsche wrote:real life wrote:maporsche wrote:RexRed wrote:
I suppose non-christians, few as they may be, are perfect angels... especially democrats.
First off, not that it matters, much of the population is "non-christian". There are millions of people who label themselves as "christian" but are not living the life a "good christian" should. They will die with sin on their heart and go to hell, same as you. I don't think it's possible to die with a clean soul, you'd have to repent the second before you death.
Someone stated that the soul goes to heaven because its reached perfection. Someone explain exactly how that is.
Second off, since you bring politics into this, show me where in the New Testament it says to bomb your neighbors (worldly neighbors, Iraq), MURDER innocent children (out of the womb, Iraq), and ignore and spit on the poor in the country (poor healthcare & rising costs & reduced coverage, ineffective welfare system, lowering taxes on the richest Americans, and creating fewer jobs (our unemployement is over 5%, with Clinton it was under 4%).
I know that I read Jesus say that somewhere, didn't I? Oh and don't even try to bring OT LAWS into this debate, you've repeated OVER AND OVER that those LAWS no longer apply, and that only what Jesus said applies. So defend those republican positions/actions with Jesus' words.
Do I understand you to say that Christians err because they do not have political positions that fulfill the commands of Jesus to feed the poor, care for the sick, etc ?
Are you saying that the government of the US should be fulfilling these commands of Christ?
I thought you were all for separation of church and state?
-----------------
Or would you prefer to discuss Iraq since you mentioned it twice? Saddam Hussein and his sons caused mass graves to be dug in Iraq with thousands of innocent victims. One notable method of torture was to run opponents thru the plastic shredder. Dismemberment and sending the body parts to the widow were also frequent favs. Are you saying that it is immoral to oppose such behavior?
Many innocent civilians unfortunately died in WWII while bringing the era of Hitler to a close. Tens of thousands , in fact.
Innocent civilians have lost their lives in Iraq also, no question. However, many more were brutally murdered under Hussein each year. The gassing of the Kurds comes to mind as another example.
Are you suggesting that Christians, in order to be true to Christ, must turn a blind eye to brutal regimes such as Iraq that murder their own people and are a danger to the world? Hussein's sponsorship of terrorism is well known and his stockpile of 500 tons of uranium just prior to the war is, as any reasonable person could see, NOT an indication of benign intent.
---------------------------
So go for it, maporsche. Either issue is open. You want the government to be the church? Or you want to defend Saddam's right to rule?
I NEVER suggested ANYTHING you just posted. Stop putting words into everyone's mouth. It's pathetic. But to answer your questions 1) No & 2) No.
RexRed stated that Democrat Non-Religionists were "perfect-angels" (sarcastically).
I was pointing out that the SELF-PROCLAIMED religious right were indeed NOT FOLLOWING the laws that Jesus gave to Christians. I was pointing out that they (and apparently YOU) are HYPOCRITES! Jesus would not have ordered Saddam Hussian to be captured, would he? Answer that question, WWJD? To claim to be a follower of Christ (religious right) and have actions that are in direct contridiction to the teachings of your Christ is hypocritical. Is it not?
Questions for you to answer (to keep it simple for you).
1. Would Jesus have killed the innocent Iraqi's to remove Saddam from power?
2. Would Jesus have ordered his followers (Christian's) to remove Saddam, knowing that innocents would be killed?
3. Would Jesus be pleased with money being taken away from the poor and given to the rich?
4. Would you please show me where Jesus said to bomb your enemies and take money from the poor?
Yes let's keep it simple:
If you want the government to fulfill the commands of Christ and provide for the poor and care for the ill, then you are not keeping church and state separate, are you?
I'd like to point out that you are ignorning my questions.
To answer your's.
I do want the government to provide for the poor and care for the ill, NOT because it would fulfill the commands of Christ, but because it's the compassionate, human thing to do. As far as providing for the poor, there are limitations, as far as caring for the ill, healthcare IS a basic human need/right.
So yes, you can care for the poor/ill and keep Church/State seperate.
Now, I would appreciate answers to my questions.
Actually it is the churches in this country that care for many of the poor the Catholic Charities and protestant donations to shelters...
When was the last time you volunteered to help out at your local soup kitchen?
When was the last time you had homeless people from the gutter sleep over at your house?
Christians are doing this sort of thing every day...
I know I have witnessed it first hand...
Where are the liberal charities?
Answers to my questions please....I think they're valid.
To answer yours:
1) Personally Never (I do donate to secular charities though, $500 this year, and some of them do run food programs)
2) Personally Never
I would assume that by asking me these questions you are stating that you personally do these as well....or are you taking some kind of credit for the actions of other Christians?
RexRed wrote:The "liberal" Roman guards sodomized Jesus...
Maybe Mel should have included that in "The Passion"...
Rex, you have too many questions to answer to have time to post this worthless nonsense.
