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Which Religion is the One True Religion?

 
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 09:16 am
Intrepid wrote:
CI has probably never read that Jesus hates the sin, but loves the sinner.


Smile
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 09:25 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
"Are brothers and sisters allowed to marry?
Are fathers and daughters allowed to marry?
Are adults allowed to marry children?"

What has that got to do with anything? We're talking about gays and lesbians.

FYI, you should study Egyptian history. They allowed all on your list.


I think his point is if we follow your logic why not open the door to all "sin"?

Your logic is infantile...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 09:32 am
Setanta wrote:
real life wrote:
So it's ok for you to promote your views, but not ok for religious folks to promote their views?

Yes for you see, Setanta and the Setantites simply practice "free speech"; those bad guy religious folk "foist" their views on others. (Those wascally wabbits !!)

Ah yes "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."


A typically insipid and vacuous response. I do not for a moment "promote my views." I don't discuss religion anywhere but in these fora. I do not suggest that anyone abandon their religious beliefs, even when they are as ludicrous and idiotic as are yours and RR's when you assert the "truth" of such nonsense as the biblical flood story. I do not and never have suggested that there be any laws against the idiocy religionists preach.

Religionists go from door to door. They stop people on the street. They picket abortion clinics (the worst cases bomb them). They rant on television. They attempt to foist their beliefs off on government and push a legislative agenda.

Keep you peurile snide comments to yourself. Your hypocricy is monumental.


I suppose non-christians, few as they may be, are perfect angels... especially democrats.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 09:40 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
It's not faith that makes me believe I am right. It's the obvious errors, omissions, and contradictions of religion. To believe in any religion, one must sacrifice logic and science.


Did you ever think the errors are in your understanding?
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 10:06 am
RexRed wrote:

I suppose non-christians, few as they may be, are perfect angels... especially democrats.


First off, not that it matters, much of the population is "non-christian". There are millions of people who label themselves as "christian" but are not living the life a "good christian" should. They will die with sin on their heart and go to hell, same as you. I don't think it's possible to die with a clean soul, you'd have to repent the second before you death.

Someone stated that the soul goes to heaven because its reached perfection. Someone explain exactly how that is.


Second off, since you bring politics into this, show me where in the New Testament it says to bomb your neighbors (worldly neighbors, Iraq), MURDER innocent children (out of the womb, Iraq), and ignore and spit on the poor in the country (poor healthcare & rising costs & reduced coverage, ineffective welfare system, lowering taxes on the richest Americans, and creating fewer jobs (our unemployement is over 5%, with Clinton it was under 4%).

I know that I read Jesus say that somewhere, didn't I? Oh and don't even try to bring OT LAWS into this debate, you've repeated OVER AND OVER that those LAWS no longer apply, and that only what Jesus said applies. So defend those republican positions/actions with Jesus' words.
0 Replies
 
JAMESDG
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 10:49 am
So let me ask you what do you want to be? is it Christian? If so then where does the Christian religion come from? well the christian religion comes form the bible, and the bible does tell us that there is a true religion and that it is our responsibility to pick the right one. I have done a lot of research with different religions, and i was in the same boat as you at one time. Than I found out that the only way to tell if a religion is good or bad is to use the bible to tell if the religion you are thinking about is practising any thing out of line with the bible. The false religion will mix truth will the lie, the true religion will follow the the bible and jesus foot step very close. If the religion does something not in harmony with the bible, like ex. if they teach that god and jesus are one person. So check out the religion you are thinking about and use the bible to research if there beliefs are in harmony with the bible or not.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 10:53 am
There's nothing wrong with my "understanding" of the comic book called the bible. I'll post many of the contradictions for all to see. Give me a few minutes to research this.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:07 am
CONTRADICTORY DOCTRINE, COMMANDMENTS
Good and evil: should we want to know the difference? No,
that was the sin of Adam (Gen 2:15-17, 3:4-6). Yes, that is
the only way to become perfect (Heb 5:14). Deut 1:39 says
little children do not have this knowledge.
For or against Jesus: Matt 12:30 says if you are not for him,
you are against him. Mark 9:40 says if you are not against
him, you are for him. (These are contradictory as to the
indifferent or undecided.)
Suffering: It is caused by sin (Deut 28:15-68, Eccl 2:26, Amos 9:
esp v 10, Ezek 18:13, 20, Jer 31:30, Job 4:7-8, 7:20-21,
8:4, 6, 20, 11:6). A good man finds favor with God and thus
does not suffer. (Job 4:7, Prov 12:2, Ps 34:9-10, 145:20,
Rom 8:28). Suffering is not caused by sin (John 9:1-3).
The godly will be persecuted (1 Tim 3:12). God afflicts the
righteous with the wicked (Ezek 21:3-4, Job 9:22, 16:11-17,
Ps 42; contra: Ps 32:10). God causes afflictions (Ps
119:75, Lam 2:17-23, 3:32-33, Nah 1:12). God feeds the
people bread of tears and gives them tears to drink (Ps
80:5). God afflicts to teach us and to punish us (Deut
8:16, 8:5, Job 5:17-18, Ezra 9:13, Jer 29:17-19, 31:18, Isa
30:20-21, Ps 89:30-32, 106:40-43, Pr 3:12, Hos 5:12-15, Heb
12:5-11, Rev 3:19); or to test us (Deut 8:16, Ps 66:10-12);
or simply to demonstrate his power (Ex 7:5, 9:14-16, 10:1-2,
8:10, Ezek 6:9-14, 20:37, 21:5, Jer 24:7, John 9:1-3, 11:3-
4). God can choose to end our afflictions at any time (Nah
1:12, 1 Pet 5:10, Ps 34:19, Job 34:29).
Burdens and troubles: God will relieve our burdens (Matt 11:28,
30). God will give us troubles and tribulations (Heb 12:6,
John 16:33). God does both (Deut 32:39, 1 Sam 2:6-7).
Sickness: It is inflicted by God (Num 11:33). By Satan (Job
2:7).
Are we punished only for our own sins? Yes (Num 16:22, Deut
24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chron 25:4, Ezek 18:20, Jer 31:30).
But God punishes many for the sins of one, or for the sins
of one's ancestors (Ex 13:15, 20:5, 34:7, Lev 26:22, Num
14:18, Deut 5:9, 28:32, 41, 46, Josh 22:20, 2 Kings 5:27, Ps
109:9-10, 137:8-9, Isa 14:21-22, Jer 6:11, 18:21, Hosea 2:4-
5, 12:2-3, where God will punish the entire tribe of Judah
for Jacob taking Esau's heel when they were born, Mal 2:3).
"Original sin" generally, which means that all humanity is
punished for Adam's sin (e.g Rom 5:12, 19, 1 Cor 15:22; see
also "Punishments").
When will we be punished for sin? OT says in this life, by
death, destruction or suffering (Deut 6:24, 16:20, 28:15-68,
30:16-20, Josh 23:16, Ps 55:23, 92:12-14, Prov 2:22, 10:2-3,
27-31, 12:2, 21, Job 36:6, which says God does not preserve
the life of the wicked, Amos 9: esp v 10, Isa 34, Jer 31:30,
Ezek 8-9, 18:13, 20, 31. Deut 28:20 says punishment is
quick death; but v 15-68 imply long agony.) But the godly
suffer and the wicked prosper (Job 2:3-6, 21:7-13, Eccl 7:15,
2 Tim 3:12). So the NT invents Hell as place of punishment for
sin after Last Judgment.
Does God want blood sacrifices? Yes (Gen 15:9, Ex 20:24, 29:10-
42, Lev 1:1-7, 3:2, 4:6-7, 8:23-24, with detailed
instructions in Ex, Lev, Num, Deut). He enjoys the "sweet
savour" (Gen 8:21, Lev 1:9, Ezek 20:40-41). Sacrifices
atone for sin (Num 15:24-28). The keystone of his plan of
salvation, according to NT, is the blood sacrifice of his
son, the Lamb of God, as the only acceptable atonement for
Adam's sin.
But God did not tell Moses to sacrifice (Jer 7:21-22;
also Amos 5:21-26, Hos 8:13, Mic 6:6-8, Isa 1:11-13).
Sacrifices do not atone for sin (Heb 10:11).
Priest's Portion? Shoulder, cheeks, maw (Deut 18:3). Breast,
right shoulder (Lev 7:30-34).
Jesus said to honor father and mother (Matt 15:4; see also Ex
20:12, Deut 5:16, Matt 19:19, Mark 7:10, 10:19, Luke 18:20),
but he required his disciples to hate father and mother
(Luke 14:26), and said that he came to turn the children
against their parents (Matt 10:35, Luke 12:51-53). "Call no
man your father" (Matt 23:9). But you should provide for
your family (1 Tim 5:8).
"Bear one another's burdens" (Gal 6:2), but "Every man shall bear
his own burden" (Gal 6:5).
Divorce: Divorce is permitted in Deut 24:1, Jer 3:8, Isa 50:1,
Luke 16:18, Mark 10:11-12 (but no remarriage), Matt 5:32,
19:9 (only for wife's fornication); but condemned in Mal
2:10-16, Matt 19:6, Mark 10:9, 1 Cor 7:10, 27, Rom 7:2-3.
Married to an unbeliever: do not divorce (1 Cor 7:13-16); but be
not yoked with unbelievers (2 Cor 6:14).
Life: where is it in the body? In the breath (Gen 2:7). In the
blood (Deut 12:23).
Wine: A blessing from God (Gen 27:28, Deut 7:13, Ps 104:5, Jer
13:12, Micah 6:15). It "cheers God and man" (Judg 9:13).
Jesus' first miracle was making wine (John 2:9-10). Wine
was at the last supper and became a sacrament (Matt 26:27-
29, Mark 14:23-25). Paul recommends a little (1 Tim 5:23).
But wine is a mocker (Pr 20:1, also Hosea 4:11). Many pas-
sages against wine forbid it only under certain circumstanc-
es, to people under special laws (priests, Nazarites), or
only in excess (Lev 10:9, Num 6:3, Judg 13:4, Prov 21:17,
23:29-32, 31:4-5, Isa 5:11, 22, 24:9, 28:1, 3, 7, Jer 23:9,
Ezek 44:21, Luke 1:15, Rom 14:21, Eph 5:18, Tit 2:3).
What does wisdom bring? Prov 3:13 says happiness. Eccl 1:18
says grief. Salvation, says 2 Tim 3:15.
Is temptation a good thing? No, say Matt 6:13, Luke 11:4. Yes,
says James 1:2
Fear vs. love: Fear of God keeps us from doing evil (Ex 20:20,
Prov 16:6, Ps 145:19, Jer 32:39-40). But fear and love
cannot coexist (1 John 4:18). Love of God leads us to keep
his commandments (1 John 5:2, 2 John 1:6). We should fear
God because he can put us in hell (Matt 10:28, Luke 12:5,
Heb 10:31).
Hate vs. love: If you hate your brother you are a murderer and
cannot love God (John 3:15, 4:20). You must be willing to
hate your brother (and your family) to be a follower of
Jesus (Luke 14:26).
Should one enjoy the pleasures of this life, the wealth that one
has accumulated? Yes say Deut 7:12ff, 8:7-18 (wealth comes
from God), Eccl 3:13, 22, 5:18-20, 8:15, 9:7-9, 10:19, Prov
3:9-10, 16-17, 10:15. No, say Eccl 4:6, 8, 5:12-17, Matt
6:19-21, 13:12, 19:16-24, Mark 12:41-44, Luke 6:20, 24,
16:19-31 (parable of Rich Man and Lazarus), 21:1-4.
Sex/Marriage: God's first words to Adam are the command to
multiply (Gen 1:28). It is not good for the man to be alone
(Gen 2:18). But any sexual activity causes uncleanness, as
does childbirth (Ex 19:15, Lev 12, 15:16-18). The
conception of a child is sin (Ps 51:5). Better alone than
with a cantankerous woman (Prov 19:9, 25:24). Paul says to
avoid marriage and sex (1 Cor 7:1, 8, 37). But it is better
to marry than to burn (v. 9).
Eunuchs: They are unworthy to enter the congregation (Deut
23:1). But they are worthy to enter heaven (Matt 19:12) and
they will have a special place there (Isaiah 56:3-5).
Is all scripture inspired of God? 2 Tim 3:16 says yes, but Paul
says some of his words in the Bible are not (2 Cor 11:17, 1
Cor 7:6, 12, 25). The scriptures do not bring salvation
(John 5:39).
Are there any who are righteous? No (1 Kings 8:46, Mark 10:18,
Rom 3:10, 23, Ps 14:3, 1 John 1:8-10). Paul says he is the
chief sinner (1 Tim 1:15). But James 5:16 says yes (also
Gen 7:1, Job 1:1, 8, 2:3, Luke 1:5-6, 15:7). Ezek 18 lists
what one must do to be "just" (=righteous?). God only pro-
tects the righteous (1 Pet 3:12), although Jesus died both
for the just and the unjust (3:18). True Christians do not
sin (1 John 3:6-9). Noah was perfect (Gen 6:9).
Where is Satan? Chained in hell (2 Pet 2:4, Jude 6). Walking
about in the earth (1 Pet 5:8 and Job 1:6-7; Job also says
he occasionally visits heaven). He is the god or prince of
this world (John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4, Eph 6:12). He was "cast
out" at the time of Jesus (John 12:31).
What is Hell? It is darkness (Lam 3:6, Ps 143:3, Job 10:22, Matt
8:12, 22:13, 25:30). It is the grave, Hebrew Sheol
or Gehenna, Greek Hades (Ps 16:10, Acts 2:27,
31, 32), inside the earth (Pr 15:24, Ps 86:13, Isa 44:23,
Eph 4:9), a "pit" (Ps 28:1, 30:3, Ezek 32:18), a place of
inactivity (Ps 6:5, Eccl 9:10, Isa 14:10, 38:18) and silence
(Ps 88:10, 94:17, 115:17). It is the "land of forgetfulness"
(Ps 88:12) where there is no pain,
excitement, comfort or joy (Job 3:13-19, 17:16, 10:22).
Only the wicked go there (Matt 5:29ff, 10:28, Mark 9:43,
Luke 16:22-25). It destroys both soul and body (Matt
10:28). It is a place of torment, of "wailing and gnashing
of teeth," a "furnace" or "lake" of "fire" (Matt 3:12, 5:22,
13:42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:41, Luke 16:23, 2 Thess 1:8, Jude
1:7, Rev 16:10; and "brimstone" Rev 14:10, 20:14, 21:8)
which is "unquenchable" (Mark 9:43, 45, Isa 66:24). The
fire and its punishment are "everlasting" (Matt 25:41, 46, 2
Thess 1:9), whose purpose is to punish unbelievers while
Jesus and the angels watch (2 Thess 1:8, Jude 1:7, Rev
14:10).
Earth: It is everlasting (Gen 49:26, Deut 33:15, Ps 78:69,
104:5, Eccl 1:4, 3:14). It will be destroyed (Ps 102:25-26,
Isa 24:19, 65:17, Matt 5:18, 24:3, 6ff, 35, also Mark 13:31,
Luke 21:33, 2 Cor 5:17, 2 Pet 3:10-12, Rev 21:1, Heb 1:10-
11).
Whose is the Earth? Satan's (John 12:31, 14:30, 2 Cor 4:4, Eph
6:12). Jesus' (1 Cor 10:26, Rev 1:5). God's (Ex 9:29,
19:5, Deut 10:14, Ps 24:1, 50:12, 89:11). Mankind's (Ps
115:16).
Was Jesus the first to rise from the dead? Acts 26:23 says yes.
Contra: 1 Kings 17:17-22 (Elijah raises a dead child), 2
Kings 4:32-35 (Elisha raises the son of a Shunammite woman),
2 Kings 13:21 (Elisha's bones revive a dead man), 1 Sam
28:7-15 (Saul calls up Samuel), Luke 9:28-30 (Moses and
Elijah come back at the Transfiguration), Matt 9:18-25
(Jesus raises Jairus' daughter), Luke 7:11-15 (Jesus raises
widow's son), John 11:43-44 (Jesus raises Lazarus). Jesus
tells the parable of Lazarus, who is taken to heaven
("Abraham's bosom") at Luke 16:19ff (this indicates that
Abraham is already in heaven).
Should we "run"? 1 Cor 9:24 says yes. Rom 3:10 says no.
Should we boast? No (Luke 18:9-14, Rom 11:20, 1 Pet 5:5). But
Paul boasts of his faith and says one should be proud of it
(Rom 15:17, 2 Cor 11:17).
Should we show our good works? Yes, say Matt 5:16, 1 Pet 2:12.
No, says Matt 6:1-4, 23:5
Should we abstain from eating flesh? Yes, if it offends, says
Paul (Rom 14:21). But let no one pass judgment on you in
matters of food and drink (Col 2:16, 1 Tim 4:3-4, see also
Gen 9:3).
Should we worry about the future? No, say Matt 6:25-34, Luke
12:22-31. Yes, says Prov 14:8, 1 Tim 5:8.
Should we curse our enemies? Yes (Ps 35:1-9, 69:23-28, esp Ps
109, Esther, passim, Lam 3:65-66). The righteous rejoices
at vengeance (Ps 58:10-11). God destroys his enemies (Deut
7:9-10, Luke 19:27). Jesus curses his enemies (Matt 6:15,
12:34, 16:3, 22:18, 23:13-15, 17, 19, 27, 29, 33, Mark 7:6,
Luke 11:40, 44, 12:56). Paul curses his enemies (2 Tim
4:14). But Jesus says love your enemies (Matt 5:39, 44).
Do not rejoice when your enemy falls (Prov 24:16-18). But
shun Gentiles, Samaritans, non-believers (2 John 9-11, Matt
10:5). And do double what they have done to you (Rev 18:6).
Should we please? Paul does (1 Cor 10:33) and Paul doesn't (Gal
1:10).
Should we swear oaths? It appears acceptable in Num 30:2, Gen
21:23, 24, 31, 31:53, Matt 23:20-22, Heb 6:13. But Matt
5:34-35 forbids it.
Should we call anybody a "fool"? Jesus says no, we would be in
danger of hell-fire (Matt 5:22). But he does so (Matt 7:26,
23:17, 19, 25:2, 38, Luke 11:40), and so does Paul (1 Cor
1:23, 3:18, 4:10, 15:36, Gal 3:1).
Stealing: Is it always a sin? Yes (Ex 20:15, Lev 19:13). But
God told the Israelites it was all right to steal from
Egyptians (Ex 3:22, 12:35-36).
Killing: Is it always a sin? Yes, says Ex 20:13, Gen 9:5-6
(whoever sheds human blood will have his blood shed) etc.
But not if you kill your own slave (Ex 21:20-21). Or if God
commands the killing (as at Ex 82:27, 1 Sam 6:19, 15:2-3,
Num 15:36). There is "a time to kill" (Eccl 3:3). (See
also "Genocide", "Punishments")
Sabbath: Must we keep it? Yes, under penalty of death (Ex 20:8,
31:15-17, 35:1-3, Jer 17:21-27, and many other passages).
No (Isa 1:13, Hos 2:11). Jesus did not keep it (Mark 2:27-
28, John 5:16, Math 12:1-8). Paul says commandment was not
permanent; decide for yourself (Rom 14:5, Col 2:16).
Slavery: Is it all right to own slaves? Yes (Lev 25:45-46, Gen
9:25, Ex 21:2,7, Joel 3:8, Luke 12:47, Col 3:22; see
"Slavery"). No, says Isa 58:6, Matt 23:10.
Prayer: Is it always effective? Yes, if you ask in faith (Matt
21:22 and Mark 11:24). Or if you ask in Jesus' name (John
14:4 and 16:23). Ask, and it will be given (Matt 7:7-8,
Luke 11:9-10). Yes, if you are a righteous man or keeping
the commandments (Prov 15:29, James 5:16, 1 John 3:22,
5:14). But none are righteous (Rom 3:10)). Yes, if two
believers ask together (Matt 18:19. Not always (Jer
7:16, 11:14, Lam 3:44, Ps 10:1, 22:1-2, Isa 1:15, Mic 3:4, John
7:34). Prayer must not be long (Matt 23:14). Only if it
you request something that God wants anyway (1 John 5:14-15,
which implies that your prayer has no effect on the
outcome). Many who ask to enter the kingdom will be refused
(Luke 13:24).
"Seek, and ye shall find" (Matt 7:7), especially if you seek the
Lord (2 Chron 15:2, Ps 9:10, Isa 55:6, Jer 29:13). But
Jesus' followers will not find him if they seek him (John
7:34, 8:21; also Amos 8:12).
Are all apostles commanded to baptize? Jesus says yes at Matt
28:19. Paul says no at 1 Cor 1:14-17.
Should Christians "contend"? Jude 3 says yes. Paul contended
(Acts 17:2-4, 17ff). Answer a fool (Prov 26:5). Answer an
unbeliever (1 Pet 3:15). Exhort "with all longsuffering" (2
Tim 4:2). Do not contend (Prov 18:6, 1 Tim 6:20, 2 Tim
2:14-16, 24, 3:1-7). Do not argue with an unbeliever or
answer a fool (Prov. 26:4). Anyone who speaks to an
unbeliever shares his evil (2 John 9-11).
What do we reap? Some sow but reap nothing (Micah 6:15). Some
sow wheat but reap thorns (Jer 12:13). Some reap without
sowing (Matt 25:26, Luke 19:22). You reap what you sow (2
Cor 9:6, Gal 6:7).
Was Jesus perfect? Jesus said he was not (Mark 10:18). The
apostles said he was sinless (2 Cor 5:21, 1 Pet 1:19, 2:22,
1 John 3:3, 5).
Will fulfilment of prophecy be delayed? There will be no more
delay (Ezek 12:21-28). Woe to those who want quick
fulfilment (Isa 5:19, Jer 17:15).
Kings: it is evil to ask for a king (1 Sam 12:17, 19, Hos
13:11). But you should obey the king (Eccl 8:2, 10:20, Rom
13:1-4, 1 Pet 2:13-17) and pray for him (1 Tim 2:1-2). God
will choose the king (Deut 17:14-20). But you do not have
to obey the secular law (Acts 5:19, 29, 40-42, 12:6-11).
Jesus will be our king (NT passim).
Genealogies: All Israel was reckoned by their genealogies (Num
1:18, 1 Chr 9:1, 22; see also Job 8:8). Paul says to avoid
them (Tit 3:9, 1 Tim 1:4).
Jesus said his message was only for Israel (Matt 15:24, 10:5-6).
But then he tells his disciples to preach to all nations
(Matt 28:19). This is also implied by "other sheep I have,
which are not of this fold" (John 10:16). Once you become a
Christian you are "Abraham's seed" (Gal 3:29).
Hidden teachings: Nothing is hidden (Isaiah 45:19, 48:16, Mark 4:22,
John 18:20). God's word is in books that are sealed (Dan 12:9,
Rev 5:1). God conceals (Prov 25:2, Deut 29:29). The truth has
always been completely evident (Job 27:11-12, Rom 1:18-20).
Salvation through Jesus can be learned from the scriptures,
i.e., the OT (Luke 16:29-31, 2 Tim 3:15). But the Gospel
had been kept hidden until Jesus (Rom 16:25-26, Col 1:26).
Jesus uses parables so that the meaning will be hidden (Matt
11:25, 13:10-15, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10; cf Isa 6:9-10).
But he came to bring the truth (John 18:37).
Wisdom: Should we be wise? No, say Gen 2:17 (Tree of Knowledge
is forbidden), Gen 3:6 (a sin to be "wise"), Eccl 1:18, 6:8,
7:16, 8:16-17, 12:12, 1 Cor 1:19-27, 1 Cor 3:18-20, 8:1,
14:38, Col 2:8, Tit 3:9, 2 Tim 2:23-24. Yes, say Job 13:1,
6, 22, Prov 3:13, 4:7, 8, 9, 12:1, Ps 19:2, 8, Eccl 7:12,
19, 23, 25, 9:18, 10:12, Hos 4:6, Luke 2:40, 52, James 1:5,
2 Pet 1:5).
Do miracles (signs) prove God's power or the authority of his
prophet? Yes (Ex 4:8-9, 10:2, Num 14:11, Judg 6:17-23, 36-
40, 2 Kings 20:8-9, Isa 7:11, 55:13, Ezek 12:6, Joel 2:30-
31, Mark 16:20, John 2:23, 3:2, 10:25, 20:30, 5:36, Acts
2:22, 5:12, 8:13, Heb 2:4). But even false prophets can
produce miracles (Ex 7:11-12, 8:7, Deut 13:1-3, Matt 24:24,
Mark 13:21-22, 2 Thess 2:9, 11, 2 Cor 11:14-15, 1 John 4:1,
Rev 13:11-14, 16:14, 19:20). It is wicked to expect a mira-
cle as proof (John 4:48, Matt 12:38-39, 16:1-4, 1 Cor 1:22).
Jesus will give no such sign (Matt 12:39, Mark 8:12, Luke
11:29, also Luke 16:27-31). One should have faith without
seeing signs (2 Cor 5:7, Heb 11:1). Speaking in tongues is
a sign for non-believers (1 Cor 14:22). It is not a sign
for non-believers (1 Cor 14:23). Raising someone from the
dead will not convince people (Luke 16:30-31). But it does
(John 11:45). It is the basis of the Gospel (1 Cor 15:16-
17, Rom 1:4).
Is the Mosaic Law hard? No (Deut 30:11). Yes (Gal 3:10, 13,
4:3, 4, 9, 30, Acts 15:10).
Must Christians obey the Mosaic Law? Yes, says God, at Deut 4:2-
6, 12:32, 27:26, 30:19 ("thou and thy seed" must obey it),
Lev 16:34, 24:8-9, Num 25:13, 2 Chron 12:1, Jer 6:19, 9:13,
Ps 78:10, 105:8-10, 119:1, Isa 5:24, 24:5, 30:9, 40:8, Hos
4:6, Amos 2:4; Jesus says yes, at Matt 5:17-19 ("not one jot
or tittle shall pass away" [but see Luke 24:44 on meaning of
"fulfilled"], "whosoever ... shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so ... ), Luke 16:17, Mark
7:8-13, Matt 23:2-3; Paul says yes, at Rom 2:12-13, 1 Cor
7:19, Gal 3:7-9, 29 (Christians are "children of Abraham"),
3:10, citing Deut 27:26; Paul circumcised Timothy at Acts
13:1-3; James 2:8-12 says yes ("whoever shall keep the whole
law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all");
also 1 Pet 1:25, James 4:11, Rev 12:17, 22:14, 1 John 3:4,
22-24. Covenant of circumcision is everlasting (Gen 17:7-
11). God's statutes last forever (Ps 119:138, 142, 144,
152). All scripture is from God and profitable for
doctrine (2 Tim 3:16). Moses and the prophets are sufficient
for salvation (Luke 16:29-31).
No, says Paul, at Gal 3, (the Law is a curse), 2:16,
5:1-14, 6:15 (circumcision is unimportant), Rom 3:20, 28,
4:-, 6:14, 7:4-6, Acts 13:39 (the Law "cannot justify"); the
apostles say no at Acts 15; Heb 9, 10 says no; Jesus says
temple worship will be abolished (John 4:21-24) and he
modified the provisions of the law (e.g., eye for an eye,
Matt 5:38). Jesus abolished the Law (Eph 2:13-15, Rom 7:4-
6, Heb 7:18-19). All foods are now clean, no ban on fat or
blood (Matt 15:11, Mark 7:14-19, Col 2:20-22, which says
that the Mosaic Law is of men, not of God, 1 Tim 4:4; this
contradicts Lev 3:17, 10:8-11:47, Deut 14:3-21).
Jesus violates Deut 4:2, 12:32, the prohibition against
adding to or diminishing the law, when he embellished the
law on divorce and was lax in obeying others. Paul is also
a gross violator of Deut 4:2, 12:32 and Matt 5:19.
Food offered to idols: May Christians eat it? Yes (1 Cor 8:1-
13, 1);19-23). No (Acts 15:22-29, Rev 2:18-23).
Salvation: how is it gained? Not many are saved (Luke 13:23-24).
Moses and the prophets are sufficient for salvation (Luke
16:29-31). It is only through Jesus, and not through the
Law of Mose (Acts 4:12, 13:39, which means that all those
who died before his time, or who do not hear his gospel, are
excluded).

Anybody confused yet? LOL
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:13 am
Trust me c.i. - the bible thumpers will equivocate, obfuscate, prevaricate, and rationalize their own pathetic, ludicrously contradictory contradiction of biblical contradictions - they have to, you see; the mindet into which they have trapped themselves requires it. Inquiry, skepticism, logic, and reason are forbidden to them. They have "Faith", and "Know" the bible is the "Word of God" ... its what they depend on. They are incapable of conceiving, let alone recognizing and acknowledging the absurdity of their proposition. Afraid to admit there are unanswered questions, they must insist they have the ultimate answer.

Now, bible-thumpers, again, lets get back to square one - what about the Abrahamic mythopaeia validates it - let alone elevates its Protestant Christian subset above any competing theo-philosophic myth system? What, apart from conviction and passion on the parts of its adherents, differentiates it, or any of them, from superstition?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:16 am
If the errors is in my understanding, you must be mentally unbalanced to understand all the contradictions in the bible.

Which one of the list of contradictions did you not understand? If they are "clear" to you, what is your interpretation? I'm curious to find out how anybody can keep them straight in their brain without having a mental breakdown.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:20 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
CONTRADICTORY DOCTRINE, COMMANDMENTS
Good and evil: should we want to know the difference? No,
that was the sin of Adam (Gen 2:15-17, 3:4-6). Yes, that is
the only way to become perfect (Heb 5:14). Deut 1:39 says
little children do not have this knowledge.
For or against Jesus: Matt 12:30 says if you are not for him,
you are against him. Mark 9:40 says if you are not against
him, you are for him. (These are contradictory as to the
indifferent or undecided.)
Suffering: It is caused by sin (Deut 28:15-68, Eccl 2:26, Amos 9:
esp v 10, Ezek 18:13, 20, Jer 31:30, Job 4:7-8, 7:20-21,
8:4, 6, 20, 11:6). A good man finds favor with God and thus
does not suffer. (Job 4:7, Prov 12:2, Ps 34:9-10, 145:20,
Rom 8:28). Suffering is not caused by sin (John 9:1-3).
The godly will be persecuted (1 Tim 3:12). God afflicts the
righteous with the wicked (Ezek 21:3-4, Job 9:22, 16:11-17,
Ps 42; contra: Ps 32:10). God causes afflictions (Ps
119:75, Lam 2:17-23, 3:32-33, Nah 1:12). God feeds the
people bread of tears and gives them tears to drink (Ps
80:5). God afflicts to teach us and to punish us (Deut
8:16, 8:5, Job 5:17-18, Ezra 9:13, Jer 29:17-19, 31:18, Isa
30:20-21, Ps 89:30-32, 106:40-43, Pr 3:12, Hos 5:12-15, Heb
12:5-11, Rev 3:19); or to test us (Deut 8:16, Ps 66:10-12);
or simply to demonstrate his power (Ex 7:5, 9:14-16, 10:1-2,
8:10, Ezek 6:9-14, 20:37, 21:5, Jer 24:7, John 9:1-3, 11:3-
4). God can choose to end our afflictions at any time (Nah
1:12, 1 Pet 5:10, Ps 34:19, Job 34:29).
Burdens and troubles: God will relieve our burdens (Matt 11:28,
30). God will give us troubles and tribulations (Heb 12:6,
John 16:33). God does both (Deut 32:39, 1 Sam 2:6-7).
Sickness: It is inflicted by God (Num 11:33). By Satan (Job
2:7).
Are we punished only for our own sins? Yes (Num 16:22, Deut
24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chron 25:4, Ezek 18:20, Jer 31:30).
But God punishes many for the sins of one, or for the sins
of one's ancestors (Ex 13:15, 20:5, 34:7, Lev 26:22, Num
14:18, Deut 5:9, 28:32, 41, 46, Josh 22:20, 2 Kings 5:27, Ps
109:9-10, 137:8-9, Isa 14:21-22, Jer 6:11, 18:21, Hosea 2:4-
5, 12:2-3, where God will punish the entire tribe of Judah
for Jacob taking Esau's heel when they were born, Mal 2:3).
"Original sin" generally, which means that all humanity is
punished for Adam's sin (e.g Rom 5:12, 19, 1 Cor 15:22; see
also "Punishments").
When will we be punished for sin? OT says in this life, by
death, destruction or suffering (Deut 6:24, 16:20, 28:15-68,
30:16-20, Josh 23:16, Ps 55:23, 92:12-14, Prov 2:22, 10:2-3,
27-31, 12:2, 21, Job 36:6, which says God does not preserve
the life of the wicked, Amos 9: esp v 10, Isa 34, Jer 31:30,
Ezek 8-9, 18:13, 20, 31. Deut 28:20 says punishment is
quick death; but v 15-68 imply long agony.) But the godly
suffer and the wicked prosper (Job 2:3-6, 21:7-13, Eccl 7:15,
2 Tim 3:12). So the NT invents Hell as place of punishment for
sin after Last Judgment.
Does God want blood sacrifices? Yes (Gen 15:9, Ex 20:24, 29:10-
42, Lev 1:1-7, 3:2, 4:6-7, 8:23-24, with detailed
instructions in Ex, Lev, Num, Deut). He enjoys the "sweet
savour" (Gen 8:21, Lev 1:9, Ezek 20:40-41). Sacrifices
atone for sin (Num 15:24-28). The keystone of his plan of
salvation, according to NT, is the blood sacrifice of his
son, the Lamb of God, as the only acceptable atonement for
Adam's sin.
But God did not tell Moses to sacrifice (Jer 7:21-22;
also Amos 5:21-26, Hos 8:13, Mic 6:6-8, Isa 1:11-13).
Sacrifices do not atone for sin (Heb 10:11).
Priest's Portion? Shoulder, cheeks, maw (Deut 18:3). Breast,
right shoulder (Lev 7:30-34).
Jesus said to honor father and mother (Matt 15:4; see also Ex
20:12, Deut 5:16, Matt 19:19, Mark 7:10, 10:19, Luke 18:20),
but he required his disciples to hate father and mother
(Luke 14:26), and said that he came to turn the children
against their parents (Matt 10:35, Luke 12:51-53). "Call no
man your father" (Matt 23:9). But you should provide for
your family (1 Tim 5:8).
"Bear one another's burdens" (Gal 6:2), but "Every man shall bear
his own burden" (Gal 6:5).
Divorce: Divorce is permitted in Deut 24:1, Jer 3:8, Isa 50:1,
Luke 16:18, Mark 10:11-12 (but no remarriage), Matt 5:32,
19:9 (only for wife's fornication); but condemned in Mal
2:10-16, Matt 19:6, Mark 10:9, 1 Cor 7:10, 27, Rom 7:2-3.
Married to an unbeliever: do not divorce (1 Cor 7:13-16); but be
not yoked with unbelievers (2 Cor 6:14).
Life: where is it in the body? In the breath (Gen 2:7). In the
blood (Deut 12:23).
Wine: A blessing from God (Gen 27:28, Deut 7:13, Ps 104:5, Jer
13:12, Micah 6:15). It "cheers God and man" (Judg 9:13).
Jesus' first miracle was making wine (John 2:9-10). Wine
was at the last supper and became a sacrament (Matt 26:27-
29, Mark 14:23-25). Paul recommends a little (1 Tim 5:23).
But wine is a mocker (Pr 20:1, also Hosea 4:11). Many pas-
sages against wine forbid it only under certain circumstanc-
es, to people under special laws (priests, Nazarites), or
only in excess (Lev 10:9, Num 6:3, Judg 13:4, Prov 21:17,
23:29-32, 31:4-5, Isa 5:11, 22, 24:9, 28:1, 3, 7, Jer 23:9,
Ezek 44:21, Luke 1:15, Rom 14:21, Eph 5:18, Tit 2:3).
What does wisdom bring? Prov 3:13 says happiness. Eccl 1:18
says grief. Salvation, says 2 Tim 3:15.
Is temptation a good thing? No, say Matt 6:13, Luke 11:4. Yes,
says James 1:2
Fear vs. love: Fear of God keeps us from doing evil (Ex 20:20,
Prov 16:6, Ps 145:19, Jer 32:39-40). But fear and love
cannot coexist (1 John 4:18). Love of God leads us to keep
his commandments (1 John 5:2, 2 John 1:6). We should fear
God because he can put us in hell (Matt 10:28, Luke 12:5,
Heb 10:31).
Hate vs. love: If you hate your brother you are a murderer and
cannot love God (John 3:15, 4:20). You must be willing to
hate your brother (and your family) to be a follower of
Jesus (Luke 14:26).
Should one enjoy the pleasures of this life, the wealth that one
has accumulated? Yes say Deut 7:12ff, 8:7-18 (wealth comes
from God), Eccl 3:13, 22, 5:18-20, 8:15, 9:7-9, 10:19, Prov
3:9-10, 16-17, 10:15. No, say Eccl 4:6, 8, 5:12-17, Matt
6:19-21, 13:12, 19:16-24, Mark 12:41-44, Luke 6:20, 24,
16:19-31 (parable of Rich Man and Lazarus), 21:1-4.
Sex/Marriage: God's first words to Adam are the command to
multiply (Gen 1:28). It is not good for the man to be alone
(Gen 2:18). But any sexual activity causes uncleanness, as
does childbirth (Ex 19:15, Lev 12, 15:16-18). The
conception of a child is sin (Ps 51:5). Better alone than
with a cantankerous woman (Prov 19:9, 25:24). Paul says to
avoid marriage and sex (1 Cor 7:1, 8, 37). But it is better
to marry than to burn (v. 9).
Eunuchs: They are unworthy to enter the congregation (Deut
23:1). But they are worthy to enter heaven (Matt 19:12) and
they will have a special place there (Isaiah 56:3-5).
Is all scripture inspired of God? 2 Tim 3:16 says yes, but Paul
says some of his words in the Bible are not (2 Cor 11:17, 1
Cor 7:6, 12, 25). The scriptures do not bring salvation
(John 5:39).
Are there any who are righteous? No (1 Kings 8:46, Mark 10:18,
Rom 3:10, 23, Ps 14:3, 1 John 1:8-10). Paul says he is the
chief sinner (1 Tim 1:15). But James 5:16 says yes (also
Gen 7:1, Job 1:1, 8, 2:3, Luke 1:5-6, 15:7). Ezek 18 lists
what one must do to be "just" (=righteous?). God only pro-
tects the righteous (1 Pet 3:12), although Jesus died both
for the just and the unjust (3:18). True Christians do not
sin (1 John 3:6-9). Noah was perfect (Gen 6:9).
Where is Satan? Chained in hell (2 Pet 2:4, Jude 6). Walking
about in the earth (1 Pet 5:8 and Job 1:6-7; Job also says
he occasionally visits heaven). He is the god or prince of
this world (John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4, Eph 6:12). He was "cast
out" at the time of Jesus (John 12:31).
What is Hell? It is darkness (Lam 3:6, Ps 143:3, Job 10:22, Matt
8:12, 22:13, 25:30). It is the grave, Hebrew Sheol
or Gehenna, Greek Hades (Ps 16:10, Acts 2:27,
31, 32), inside the earth (Pr 15:24, Ps 86:13, Isa 44:23,
Eph 4:9), a "pit" (Ps 28:1, 30:3, Ezek 32:18), a place of
inactivity (Ps 6:5, Eccl 9:10, Isa 14:10, 38:18) and silence
(Ps 88:10, 94:17, 115:17). It is the "land of forgetfulness"
(Ps 88:12) where there is no pain,
excitement, comfort or joy (Job 3:13-19, 17:16, 10:22).
Only the wicked go there (Matt 5:29ff, 10:28, Mark 9:43,
Luke 16:22-25). It destroys both soul and body (Matt
10:28). It is a place of torment, of "wailing and gnashing
of teeth," a "furnace" or "lake" of "fire" (Matt 3:12, 5:22,
13:42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:41, Luke 16:23, 2 Thess 1:8, Jude
1:7, Rev 16:10; and "brimstone" Rev 14:10, 20:14, 21:8)
which is "unquenchable" (Mark 9:43, 45, Isa 66:24). The
fire and its punishment are "everlasting" (Matt 25:41, 46, 2
Thess 1:9), whose purpose is to punish unbelievers while
Jesus and the angels watch (2 Thess 1:8, Jude 1:7, Rev
14:10).
Earth: It is everlasting (Gen 49:26, Deut 33:15, Ps 78:69,
104:5, Eccl 1:4, 3:14). It will be destroyed (Ps 102:25-26,
Isa 24:19, 65:17, Matt 5:18, 24:3, 6ff, 35, also Mark 13:31,
Luke 21:33, 2 Cor 5:17, 2 Pet 3:10-12, Rev 21:1, Heb 1:10-
11).
Whose is the Earth? Satan's (John 12:31, 14:30, 2 Cor 4:4, Eph
6:12). Jesus' (1 Cor 10:26, Rev 1:5). God's (Ex 9:29,
19:5, Deut 10:14, Ps 24:1, 50:12, 89:11). Mankind's (Ps
115:16).
Was Jesus the first to rise from the dead? Acts 26:23 says yes.
Contra: 1 Kings 17:17-22 (Elijah raises a dead child), 2
Kings 4:32-35 (Elisha raises the son of a Shunammite woman),
2 Kings 13:21 (Elisha's bones revive a dead man), 1 Sam
28:7-15 (Saul calls up Samuel), Luke 9:28-30 (Moses and
Elijah come back at the Transfiguration), Matt 9:18-25
(Jesus raises Jairus' daughter), Luke 7:11-15 (Jesus raises
widow's son), John 11:43-44 (Jesus raises Lazarus). Jesus
tells the parable of Lazarus, who is taken to heaven
("Abraham's bosom") at Luke 16:19ff (this indicates that
Abraham is already in heaven).
Should we "run"? 1 Cor 9:24 says yes. Rom 3:10 says no.
Should we boast? No (Luke 18:9-14, Rom 11:20, 1 Pet 5:5). But
Paul boasts of his faith and says one should be proud of it
(Rom 15:17, 2 Cor 11:17).
Should we show our good works? Yes, say Matt 5:16, 1 Pet 2:12.
No, says Matt 6:1-4, 23:5
Should we abstain from eating flesh? Yes, if it offends, says
Paul (Rom 14:21). But let no one pass judgment on you in
matters of food and drink (Col 2:16, 1 Tim 4:3-4, see also
Gen 9:3).
Should we worry about the future? No, say Matt 6:25-34, Luke
12:22-31. Yes, says Prov 14:8, 1 Tim 5:8.
Should we curse our enemies? Yes (Ps 35:1-9, 69:23-28, esp Ps
109, Esther, passim, Lam 3:65-66). The righteous rejoices
at vengeance (Ps 58:10-11). God destroys his enemies (Deut
7:9-10, Luke 19:27). Jesus curses his enemies (Matt 6:15,
12:34, 16:3, 22:18, 23:13-15, 17, 19, 27, 29, 33, Mark 7:6,
Luke 11:40, 44, 12:56). Paul curses his enemies (2 Tim
4:14). But Jesus says love your enemies (Matt 5:39, 44).
Do not rejoice when your enemy falls (Prov 24:16-18). But
shun Gentiles, Samaritans, non-believers (2 John 9-11, Matt
10:5). And do double what they have done to you (Rev 18:6).
Should we please? Paul does (1 Cor 10:33) and Paul doesn't (Gal
1:10).
Should we swear oaths? It appears acceptable in Num 30:2, Gen
21:23, 24, 31, 31:53, Matt 23:20-22, Heb 6:13. But Matt
5:34-35 forbids it.
Should we call anybody a "fool"? Jesus says no, we would be in
danger of hell-fire (Matt 5:22). But he does so (Matt 7:26,
23:17, 19, 25:2, 38, Luke 11:40), and so does Paul (1 Cor
1:23, 3:18, 4:10, 15:36, Gal 3:1).
Stealing: Is it always a sin? Yes (Ex 20:15, Lev 19:13). But
God told the Israelites it was all right to steal from
Egyptians (Ex 3:22, 12:35-36).
Killing: Is it always a sin? Yes, says Ex 20:13, Gen 9:5-6
(whoever sheds human blood will have his blood shed) etc.
But not if you kill your own slave (Ex 21:20-21). Or if God
commands the killing (as at Ex 82:27, 1 Sam 6:19, 15:2-3,
Num 15:36). There is "a time to kill" (Eccl 3:3). (See
also "Genocide", "Punishments")
Sabbath: Must we keep it? Yes, under penalty of death (Ex 20:8,
31:15-17, 35:1-3, Jer 17:21-27, and many other passages).
No (Isa 1:13, Hos 2:11). Jesus did not keep it (Mark 2:27-
28, John 5:16, Math 12:1-8). Paul says commandment was not
permanent; decide for yourself (Rom 14:5, Col 2:16).
Slavery: Is it all right to own slaves? Yes (Lev 25:45-46, Gen
9:25, Ex 21:2,7, Joel 3:8, Luke 12:47, Col 3:22; see
"Slavery"). No, says Isa 58:6, Matt 23:10.
Prayer: Is it always effective? Yes, if you ask in faith (Matt
21:22 and Mark 11:24). Or if you ask in Jesus' name (John
14:4 and 16:23). Ask, and it will be given (Matt 7:7-8,
Luke 11:9-10). Yes, if you are a righteous man or keeping
the commandments (Prov 15:29, James 5:16, 1 John 3:22,
5:14). But none are righteous (Rom 3:10)). Yes, if two
believers ask together (Matt 18:19. Not always (Jer
7:16, 11:14, Lam 3:44, Ps 10:1, 22:1-2, Isa 1:15, Mic 3:4, John
7:34). Prayer must not be long (Matt 23:14). Only if it
you request something that God wants anyway (1 John 5:14-15,
which implies that your prayer has no effect on the
outcome). Many who ask to enter the kingdom will be refused
(Luke 13:24).
"Seek, and ye shall find" (Matt 7:7), especially if you seek the
Lord (2 Chron 15:2, Ps 9:10, Isa 55:6, Jer 29:13). But
Jesus' followers will not find him if they seek him (John
7:34, 8:21; also Amos 8:12).
Are all apostles commanded to baptize? Jesus says yes at Matt
28:19. Paul says no at 1 Cor 1:14-17.
Should Christians "contend"? Jude 3 says yes. Paul contended
(Acts 17:2-4, 17ff). Answer a fool (Prov 26:5). Answer an
unbeliever (1 Pet 3:15). Exhort "with all longsuffering" (2
Tim 4:2). Do not contend (Prov 18:6, 1 Tim 6:20, 2 Tim
2:14-16, 24, 3:1-7). Do not argue with an unbeliever or
answer a fool (Prov. 26:4). Anyone who speaks to an
unbeliever shares his evil (2 John 9-11).
What do we reap? Some sow but reap nothing (Micah 6:15). Some
sow wheat but reap thorns (Jer 12:13). Some reap without
sowing (Matt 25:26, Luke 19:22). You reap what you sow (2
Cor 9:6, Gal 6:7).
Was Jesus perfect? Jesus said he was not (Mark 10:18). The
apostles said he was sinless (2 Cor 5:21, 1 Pet 1:19, 2:22,
1 John 3:3, 5).
Will fulfilment of prophecy be delayed? There will be no more
delay (Ezek 12:21-28). Woe to those who want quick
fulfilment (Isa 5:19, Jer 17:15).
Kings: it is evil to ask for a king (1 Sam 12:17, 19, Hos
13:11). But you should obey the king (Eccl 8:2, 10:20, Rom
13:1-4, 1 Pet 2:13-17) and pray for him (1 Tim 2:1-2). God
will choose the king (Deut 17:14-20). But you do not have
to obey the secular law (Acts 5:19, 29, 40-42, 12:6-11).
Jesus will be our king (NT passim).
Genealogies: All Israel was reckoned by their genealogies (Num
1:18, 1 Chr 9:1, 22; see also Job 8:8). Paul says to avoid
them (Tit 3:9, 1 Tim 1:4).
Jesus said his message was only for Israel (Matt 15:24, 10:5-6).
But then he tells his disciples to preach to all nations
(Matt 28:19). This is also implied by "other sheep I have,
which are not of this fold" (John 10:16). Once you become a
Christian you are "Abraham's seed" (Gal 3:29).
Hidden teachings: Nothing is hidden (Isaiah 45:19, 48:16, Mark 4:22,
John 18:20). God's word is in books that are sealed (Dan 12:9,
Rev 5:1). God conceals (Prov 25:2, Deut 29:29). The truth has
always been completely evident (Job 27:11-12, Rom 1:18-20).
Salvation through Jesus can be learned from the scriptures,
i.e., the OT (Luke 16:29-31, 2 Tim 3:15). But the Gospel
had been kept hidden until Jesus (Rom 16:25-26, Col 1:26).
Jesus uses parables so that the meaning will be hidden (Matt
11:25, 13:10-15, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:10; cf Isa 6:9-10).
But he came to bring the truth (John 18:37).
Wisdom: Should we be wise? No, say Gen 2:17 (Tree of Knowledge
is forbidden), Gen 3:6 (a sin to be "wise"), Eccl 1:18, 6:8,
7:16, 8:16-17, 12:12, 1 Cor 1:19-27, 1 Cor 3:18-20, 8:1,
14:38, Col 2:8, Tit 3:9, 2 Tim 2:23-24. Yes, say Job 13:1,
6, 22, Prov 3:13, 4:7, 8, 9, 12:1, Ps 19:2, 8, Eccl 7:12,
19, 23, 25, 9:18, 10:12, Hos 4:6, Luke 2:40, 52, James 1:5,
2 Pet 1:5).
Do miracles (signs) prove God's power or the authority of his
prophet? Yes (Ex 4:8-9, 10:2, Num 14:11, Judg 6:17-23, 36-
40, 2 Kings 20:8-9, Isa 7:11, 55:13, Ezek 12:6, Joel 2:30-
31, Mark 16:20, John 2:23, 3:2, 10:25, 20:30, 5:36, Acts
2:22, 5:12, 8:13, Heb 2:4). But even false prophets can
produce miracles (Ex 7:11-12, 8:7, Deut 13:1-3, Matt 24:24,
Mark 13:21-22, 2 Thess 2:9, 11, 2 Cor 11:14-15, 1 John 4:1,
Rev 13:11-14, 16:14, 19:20). It is wicked to expect a mira-
cle as proof (John 4:48, Matt 12:38-39, 16:1-4, 1 Cor 1:22).
Jesus will give no such sign (Matt 12:39, Mark 8:12, Luke
11:29, also Luke 16:27-31). One should have faith without
seeing signs (2 Cor 5:7, Heb 11:1). Speaking in tongues is
a sign for non-believers (1 Cor 14:22). It is not a sign
for non-believers (1 Cor 14:23). Raising someone from the
dead will not convince people (Luke 16:30-31). But it does
(John 11:45). It is the basis of the Gospel (1 Cor 15:16-
17, Rom 1:4).
Is the Mosaic Law hard? No (Deut 30:11). Yes (Gal 3:10, 13,
4:3, 4, 9, 30, Acts 15:10).
Must Christians obey the Mosaic Law? Yes, says God, at Deut 4:2-
6, 12:32, 27:26, 30:19 ("thou and thy seed" must obey it),
Lev 16:34, 24:8-9, Num 25:13, 2 Chron 12:1, Jer 6:19, 9:13,
Ps 78:10, 105:8-10, 119:1, Isa 5:24, 24:5, 30:9, 40:8, Hos
4:6, Amos 2:4; Jesus says yes, at Matt 5:17-19 ("not one jot
or tittle shall pass away" [but see Luke 24:44 on meaning of
"fulfilled"], "whosoever ... shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so ... ), Luke 16:17, Mark
7:8-13, Matt 23:2-3; Paul says yes, at Rom 2:12-13, 1 Cor
7:19, Gal 3:7-9, 29 (Christians are "children of Abraham"),
3:10, citing Deut 27:26; Paul circumcised Timothy at Acts
13:1-3; James 2:8-12 says yes ("whoever shall keep the whole
law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all");
also 1 Pet 1:25, James 4:11, Rev 12:17, 22:14, 1 John 3:4,
22-24. Covenant of circumcision is everlasting (Gen 17:7-
11). God's statutes last forever (Ps 119:138, 142, 144,
152). All scripture is from God and profitable for
doctrine (2 Tim 3:16). Moses and the prophets are sufficient
for salvation (Luke 16:29-31).
No, says Paul, at Gal 3, (the Law is a curse), 2:16,
5:1-14, 6:15 (circumcision is unimportant), Rom 3:20, 28,
4:-, 6:14, 7:4-6, Acts 13:39 (the Law "cannot justify"); the
apostles say no at Acts 15; Heb 9, 10 says no; Jesus says
temple worship will be abolished (John 4:21-24) and he
modified the provisions of the law (e.g., eye for an eye,
Matt 5:38). Jesus abolished the Law (Eph 2:13-15, Rom 7:4-
6, Heb 7:18-19). All foods are now clean, no ban on fat or
blood (Matt 15:11, Mark 7:14-19, Col 2:20-22, which says
that the Mosaic Law is of men, not of God, 1 Tim 4:4; this
contradicts Lev 3:17, 10:8-11:47, Deut 14:3-21).
Jesus violates Deut 4:2, 12:32, the prohibition against
adding to or diminishing the law, when he embellished the
law on divorce and was lax in obeying others. Paul is also
a gross violator of Deut 4:2, 12:32 and Matt 5:19.
Food offered to idols: May Christians eat it? Yes (1 Cor 8:1-
13, 1);19-23). No (Acts 15:22-29, Rev 2:18-23).
Salvation: how is it gained? Not many are saved (Luke 13:23-24).
Moses and the prophets are sufficient for salvation (Luke
16:29-31). It is only through Jesus, and not through the
Law of Mose (Acts 4:12, 13:39, which means that all those
who died before his time, or who do not hear his gospel, are
excluded).

Anybody confused yet? LOL


Only you.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:22 am
There ya go, c.i. - what'd I tell you?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:22 am
Setanta wrote:
real life wrote:
So it's ok for you to promote your views, but not ok for religious folks to promote their views?

Yes for you see, Setanta and the Setantites simply practice "free speech"; those bad guy religious folk "foist" their views on others. (Those wascally wabbits !!)

Ah yes "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."


......I do not for a moment "promote my views." I don't discuss religion anywhere but in these fora. ...........................

Keep you peurile snide comments to yourself. .................


Free speech for you, not for others. Right?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:27 am
timberlandko wrote:
There ya go, c.i. - what'd I tell you?


Yes, what DID you say? Not much. Lots of vague put downs, not a lot else. If you ever get around to specifics, you might be more entertaining. As it is, your posts are rather repetitious and boring.

BTW-- Where is the Latin today? I miss the Latin. Did the Agnostic Council II convene and do away with Latin also?
0 Replies
 
djbt
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:32 am
real life wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Anybody confused yet? LOL

Only you.


I am confused by these apparent contradictions, real life. If you are not, could you explain to me how they can be reconciled. Feel free to take them one at a time, I'll probably get swamped otherwise!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:45 am
timber, I know what you're saying, but it's difficult not to challenge them.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:48 am
I also know that their fear of this imaginary god has complete control over their brains. There's no other explanation for their illogical behavior.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:59 am
real life wrote:
Yes, what DID you say? Not much. Lots of vague put downs, not a lot else.

I wouldn't categorize my criticisms of the proposition you champion vague in the least and I venture to say I'm not alone in that assessment - though apparently only vague and evasive response to those criticisms, by the evidence so far presented in this discussion, may be made.
Quote:
If you ever get around to specifics, you might be more entertaining.
Quote:

I have no deire to entertain, I seek to gain knowledge, exhange ideas, and participate in discourse. I muxt conclude your aims differ. Address the specifics, as opposed to your so far unbroken practice of evading them.

Quote:
As it is, your posts are rather repetitious and boring.

If you have trouble dealing with the specifics raised in them, as apparently is the case, it is your option to simply scroll past them as opposed to validating those criticisms in the manner you so far repeatedly and incessently have employed.

Quote:
BTW-- Where is the Latin today? I miss the Latin. Did the Agnostic Council II convene and do away with Latin also?

I find your humor is surpassed only by your forensic skills. Just as I begin to suspect the ultimate in ludicrous, unresponsive, irrelevant rejoinder has been offered, you manage to bring the concept to new heights.


Now, once again, lets get back to square one - what about the Abrahamic mythopaeia validates it - let alone elevates its Protestant Christian subset above any competing theo-philosophic myth system? What, apart from conviction and passion on the parts of its adherents, differentiates it, or any of them, from superstition?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 12:44 pm
Nobody's curtailing your freedom of speech "real" life (that still cracks me up) . . . it is noteworthy that you felt obliged to select portions of what i wrote in this latest sophomoric attempt at being snide. You could refrain from the playground rhetoric and silly attempts at insult, and discuss particulars. Or, as you seem to prefer, you can sidestep valid criticisms and to-the-point rebuttals of you silly accusations, and just indulge in more childish sarcasm. My experience tells me you prefer that last option.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 01:32 pm
djbt, Haven't you figured it out yet? It's damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Kinda confusing to most of us that are not "blessed" to understand the bible.
0 Replies
 
 

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