4
   

Genuinely confused about feminism and boobs

 
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 03:18 pm
@glitterbag,
I do make my own decisions on how I live my life... a fact that on its own disproves your ideological claim.

My objection to feminism is the ideological claims made in the name of feminism (yours included).
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 03:21 pm
@glitterbag,
He's on the rag about fems.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 03:30 pm
@ossobuco,
Oh, on doors, I hold them for others if I am there first.

We had an earlier thread about this; I remember being feisty on it. If I'm going to the opera (never done that), I'll dress well and you will hold the door for me, especially if I am wearing high heels, since I'm a klutz. If I am going to a chain restaurant, I can get it myself if I am there first. I'm not going to wait. We used to do that, back in the day. Miss Hanberry told us too in courtesy class.
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 03:34 pm
@ossobuco,
Yep, he has his own definition for feminist that colors women as shrill, demanding, and anti-male. I think he's a little young and is completely in the dark regarding the opportunities that were available to women in the 1960's and 70's.

Women can now participate as linguists and intel analysts in the US Military, they were not permitted to have those positions prior to the late 70's. Women working as civilians for DOD were refused overseas assignments because "overseas sites didn't have bathrooms for women". Now doesn't that really sounds nuts???, but that was the excuse women were given on why they could
not be selected for those positions. Women of course can now hold those positions, but that's due to the efforts of many of those dreaded feminists who wanted the same opportunity that male counterparts were offered.
glitterbag
  Selected Answer
 
  3  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 03:40 pm
@glitterbag,
Here's another fun fact about women. When we bought our first house, the mortgage companies would not consider my salary as evidence we could afford to buy. More than one lender explained that the lending institution would not accept the risk that I might become pregnant and quit working.

That was my personal experience, but it was also happening to other working women at that time.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 03:50 pm
@ossobuco,
I was older than my husband and together we had a couple of friends older than me and quite older than him, two professors, one in psychology but also a biography author, and one an english prof, whose classes my husband had taken earlier. We were pals as a group, a level field of jolly arguers. Plus, Harvey needed some one to go to restaurants with. Kidding, kidding, he was one of the tiny number at our wedding.

I was in my thirties, and used to run/jog in a lot of places in west Los Angeles, and one of them was in the neighborhood of the Sawtelle YMCA. For a reason I don't remember, the bio author and I went for a walk in that neighborhood - maybe I had been the one to know where to park our cars, as I went to that Y. I'll guess we were meeting my husband at one of the japanese restaurants. My point -
he kept maneuvering me to the inside of the sidewalk. I squawked. I had run those streets many times by myself fgdsakes. He was protecting me from marauders in automobiles or bicycles. Two irritated people.

I'll call that distinction re age and upbringing. He wasn't wrong. Neither was I.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 03:57 pm
@glitterbag,
You demonstrating the problem with the ideology of feminism wonderfully.

I think the advances our society has made in terms of equality for women are wonderful. I support them 100%. I am old enough to have lived through the 1970s. We agree completely about equality in the workplace.

I can agree with you completely, and I can support what you are saying. Yet, if I don't say the right mantra it leads to personal attacks against me (including a ironically crass joke about menstruation).

When mantras become more important than ideas or values, it is a problem. This is why I push back on any ideology... feminism included.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 03:57 pm
@glitterbag,
The med school reasoning I kept learning about and (perhaps) the law school reasoning for non enthusiasm for female students was that they would just marry and quit.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 04:05 pm
A question to either of you...

Carly Fiorina is a woman who is undoubtedly grateful for the advances women have made in business and politics.

Do you accept her as a feminist?
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 04:12 pm
@glitterbag,
I take Max as not all anti feminism, but very angry at the rads. I don't know the details as I don't follow the rads, except

a friend of mine and I had reason to talk about it and I learned a lot.
I would likely be anti rad too if I bothered to read more about it, but I don't know.

Another poster got into this ---- name I don't recall, something like butterball. I liked him but stuff got nasty. He was smart, whether or not I agreed with him over time. He was also freaked by rad fems.


0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 04:19 pm
@maxdancona,
I don't read about her much so I don't know her takes on this or that.. Just because she's on "the other side" doesn't make me not understand.
I have no clue if she calls herself a feminist.

She has lived it.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 04:27 pm
@ossobuco,
Carly Fiorina wrote:
Feminism began as a rallying cry to empower women — to vote, to get an education, to enter the workplace. But over the years, feminism has devolved into a left-leaning political ideology where women are pitted against men and used as a political weapon to win elections.

Being empowered means having a voice. But ideological feminism shuts down conversation — on college campuses and in the media. If you are a man — or a woman — who doesn’t believe the litanies of the left, then you are “waging a war on women” or you are a “threat to women’s health” or you are variously described as “window dressing” — Joni Ernst — or offensive as a candidate


https://medium.com/@CarlyFiorina/redefining-feminism-19d25d8d8dfc#.3ixoewds7

I don't agree with Carly Fiorina politically. My issue with ideological feminism comes from the left. But the fact that feminism (in its modern form) "shuts down conversation" is undeniable.


ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 04:29 pm
@maxdancona,
Oh well, pooh.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 04:32 pm
@ossobuco,
I suppose our poster has reasonably fled.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 04:37 pm
By the way, I look forward to stopping my experiment about not fixing thumbs down.

I am interested in the original poster and cringe that I didn't post him up.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  3  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 04:48 pm
@maxdancona,
Honest to God, you make no sense to me. You talk about mantra, but I simply don't have a clue to what you are referring. You seem to have a very rigid view of what constitutes a feminist. If you are hung up on the word 'feminist', I don't know how to help you. I think you are letting a jaundiced view prevent you from seeing a broader more complex issue. Women do not have an Empress or Queen who drafts rules for women. There will never be a Queen for all women, because women are far too diverse to ever completely agree on one set of rules. We are not one big pot of 'just alike'.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 04:50 pm
@maxdancona,
I'm not acquainted with academic feminism. I'm from a slightly earlier generation. I'd likely agree with a lot and disagree with a lot. I tossed my Friedan book (to my later shame in my mind).

I doubt ordinary american women living our lives are as interested as you are about the tweeks of what I will call, for myself, the right wing of feminism.
Most of us are unaware or dismiss it.

I'm not a reader of all the websites so of course I could be wrong. Maybe it's the left wing.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 05:09 pm
@glitterbag,
Glitterbag, we are arguing about the word "feminism". I don't see anything you have said (other than the use of the word) that I disagree with. Do you disagree with anything I have said (other than about the word)?

If I believe in equality for women, then why do you care if I like the word "feminism" or not?

If the word "feminism" is more important than values like equality and opportunity... don't you see why I might see this as a problem?
glitterbag
 
  3  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 06:02 pm
@maxdancona,
It makes me frustrated that one word can become so imbued as to lose its meaning. Politicians insult each other by calling each other liberals or conservative, and if you really want to insult someone, call them a feminist. I think Carly Fiorini is a crass opportunist, and she chooses to claim feminist is a far liberal left radical man hating group. I will not abide hating men or women for political expediency. The actual bottom line is that shrill rude people are impossible to like, regardless of what label they choose to use. Extremists or zealots get attention and offend people, and its sad that those folks get to define the terminology.

Now regarding the sentence you used:

"If the word "feminism" is more important than values like equality and opportunity... don't you see why I might see this as a problem?"

Who do you think is making such an idiotic point? Do you see that word as anti-equality or anti-opportunity? If you actually do, then I suppose you do have a problem. I'm not trying to force you to accept the word 'feminist', but please don't insist I defer to your definition.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 06:51 pm
@glitterbag,
I haven't made any attempt to define the word "feminist". I don't have a definition of the word feminist. If a person calls themselves a "feminist", I accept that. I might then agree with them or not... whether I agree with them has nothing to do with whether they are a feminist or not.

We have a word in the English language that means "equality". That word is "equality". We agree on what equality means, and we both believe that equality is a good thing. I don't know why we need any other word than that.

I object when people use the word "feminism" in an ideological sense, to shut down discussion. If we are looking for equality, let's talk about equality.

 

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