1
   

"My country/president, right or wrong!"

 
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 07:20 pm
There is a difference between using the word "fallacious" with an understanding of logic and simple evoking the word as a retaliatory measure.

In any case, exit sounds good, I've no plans to argue with you.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 07:25 pm
Here in Texas, even some of my close friends won't admit that I'm Texan, knowing I was born here and have been here at least 40 of my 60+ years. That's because I openly denigrate the President, state governor, racism, and a host of other Communist activities (according to them). Think I let them tell me to get out? The door swings both ways.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 08:42 pm
Everywhere its
Dykes and Fairies
Freaks and Hairies
Tell me where is santity . . .
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 08:45 pm
When you find out, Setanta, please let me know! A little sanity would be nice! Confused
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 02:09 am
Sofia said:

"Dlowan--
You said--
Being open-eyed does not imply hatred! That is a ridiculous, and quite false dichotomy.
----
To which, I say--
And continuing to love a country through mistakes and folly does not imply closed eyes! That is a ridiculous, and quite false dichotomy. Takes one, sometimes, to elicit another one. "

Good try Sofia - might work for anyone who has not read anything of the preceding discussion.

Rolling Eyes

Those who have would be aware that I never suggested such a thing.

Blimey. Bottom of the barrel.

Such idiocy is why I really AM out of here this time.

These discussions are nutso.
0 Replies
 
BillyFalcon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 02:58 am
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:19 pm
Dissent is always proper and honorable when there are disagreements of policy or practice. I can't understand why those on the left are unable to see the difference between dissent and dishonor. And I am unable to understand why those on the left are unable to understand that objecting to people dishonoring their country is not the same thing as squashing dissent.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:25 pm
Because, foxfire, the right wants to tarr all dissenters with the same brush.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:44 pm
dlowan wrote:
Now we're counting WARS???? I'll give you WW II. And Haiti.

bejesus.

I suppose you're gonna try and count Vietnam!!! The nightmarish dictators the USA has sponsored and/or helped install! The elected leaders it has helped to topple and/or kill?

C'mon - the USA is like most other countries. Some fabulous bits - some nightmarish bits - a lot in between. I personally find much to like and praise in the USA - just as I like many other countries, including my own - but I also find much to be appalled by. Ditto with my own. And I WILL continue to be speaking out about 'em.

Yes, your citizens are often privately and corporately generous - so they ought to be. They are enormously wealthy by world standards.

By all means love it if you wish - but right or wrong? Well, if I went about with closed eyes, I would bump into stuff. Mebbe you have better senses?

This has got so nuts, I am out of here!


You want to hold me to my words, but absolve yourself of responsibility for yours? Your quote in red clearly implies love of country, when it is right or wrong, is done with closed eyes.

Edgar--

Such a broad brush from you. I am a member of the right,and Iand many others DO see plenty of dissent options that aren't considered traitorous or anti-American. Bush himself has agreed that peaceful demonstrations and the like are our priviledge. Its not all black and white.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:47 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Dissent is always proper and honorable when there are disagreements of policy or practice. I can't understand why those on the left are unable to see the difference between dissent and dishonor. And I am unable to understand why those on the left are unable to understand that objecting to people dishonoring their country is not the same thing as squashing dissent.


Somehow, 'irony' just doesn't say it.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:49 pm
I was wondering if there were such a thing as a coherent definition of "dishonoring their country" available from the Fox . . .

I rather suspect not . . .
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 05:00 pm
I think each person knows it (dishonor) when they see it, depending on their own set of standards.

Not speaking for Fox, but for me, I don't expect people to adhere to my standards--but I'll still call it like I see it. That's really what we're all doing.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 07:33 pm
Over ninety percent of right wingers who start this "dissenters are getting the boys killed", "dissenters are traitors" talk will tell you they are not against the right to dissent. Still they persist in the rhetoric. You explain it to me.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 08:00 pm
Sofia wrote:
I think each person knows it (dishonor) when they see it, depending on their own set of standards.


This is entirely meaningless. Apart from having asked Fox for her definition, so that one may judge at what point she condemns dissent--this reply of yours is simply the restatement of a snide tactic to discredit dissent while continuing to wrap oneself in the flag of american republican virtues of democratic tolerance. In fact, in a strictly constitutional sense, there is nothing one could say publicly which could be considered "dishonorable" dissent. All speech which does not constitute (in O. W. Holmes' now famous phrase) "a clear and present danger" to the republic is legal, no matter how dissentient. It is from that point that the Right, in a frantic rear-guard to retain the moral high ground of tolerating dissent while condemning treason attempt to insinuate that any criticism of an administration's military policy, or the doctrine in use by the military, gets GI's killed. This is a nasty, mean-spritied and unsupportable contention which constitutes one of the Right's favorite gutter tactics.

So if you want to contend that there could be dissent which "dishonors the nation," you need to define it pretty damned clearly--otherwise you're engaged in schoolyard inuendo and libel.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 08:58 pm
I've got it, set. It's a don't ask, don't tell sort of thing. You can dissent so long as nobody knows you are doing it.
0 Replies
 
BillyFalcon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 09:05 pm
Fox, Someone has all ready menitoned irony.
What it means to you and to us is that you are revealing yourself as someone who is profoundly anti-American.
Basically, you (that's YOU) would set limits on free
speech.

Disagreementse are ok if they are about policy or practice.
The difference between dissent and dishonor.
Etc.

And therein lies your problem. Insofar as you set limits, you are revealing yourself as one who does not love your country, but would gut the Bill of Rights, etc.
And, turn your country into one of the dictator countries you rightfully condemn. Who would set the limits on free speech under your system? A panel of citizens?
Congress? The courts? Police?

Fox's motto: " You are free to express anything ideas or thoughts you want to so long as they are approved by the government."

That motto is a contradiction in terms.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 09:30 pm
Billy, I thought I had responded to this post but I can't find what I wrote. It was quite nicely written, but I won't attempt to duplicate it.

Summarized, it said that you will have to hunt high and low and under every rock on the planet to find a single case in which I suggest we should have less free speech or that there should not be dissent. You are blindly following the others who cannot seem to differentiate between dissent and dishonor.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 04:47 am
That would be the right wingers, yes?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 12:54 pm
Quote:
You are blindly following the others who cannot seem to differentiate between dissent and dishonor.


C'mon Fox.

WHO gets to decide what is dissent and what is dishonor? You? I don't think so.

Your argument is flawed if you truly believe in the freedom of speech.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 03:04 pm
Okay Cyclop, you're saying then that anybody should be able to say whatever they wish, wherever they wish, whenever they wish and everybody should be tolerant of that no matter how racist, sexist, homophobic, misleading, inflammatory it is? Are you saying that to suggest that one should discipline their speech in favor of the common good is to be against freedom of speech?

Who decides what is acceptable and unacceptable speech in your world? Or is all acceptable to you?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 10/01/2024 at 10:26:40