"My country/president, right or wrong!"

If I believe that my country is doing something wrong, such as attacking a sovereign nation claiming that they have WMD's when we know this is false information, then we have an obligation to fight our government by staying here and protesting and trying to convince other citizens of the wrongness of this war. We also have an obligation to support our military when they are used wrongly by our politicians. We are stuck in Iraq like it or not due to the stupidity of our president and his government. Lets git rid of them and replace them with a government that will use some common sense.

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Lol! How do people know anything about the "best place on earth" unless they have lived in all places on earth?

Or a representative damn proportion of them.

I can understand FEELING (feelings being what they are) that one one lives in the best place on earth (does this include ALL of the USA, Fox, or just your bit?) - but THINKING such a thing? I would hope that one's thoughts are held to a higher standard of reason and proportion than that..

Also, Fox - exactly HOW do you believe one should work to correct wrong that is occurring in your country without talking about it?

A country is NOT a family. You cannot have a family meeting and air dirty linen behind closed walls (even if such secrecy was the perfect solution for families). What ought one to do as one works to correct wrong?

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Hmmm interesting question dlowan. My 'bit' is on the high desert of New Mexico.....the land is harsh, there is little green, little surface water, yet it is beautiful in its own way. My son rotates beween the rangeland and wheatfields of the Texas Panhandle and the Gulf Coast; my daughter is in the Monterey Bay area of California. We have lived in Texas, in the Southwest, in the Midwest, and in the East and we have travelled to all but I think 5 states now. Alaska is incredible. Hawaii is incredible. New England is incredible. The West Coast is incredible. There is no place that doesn't have something to commend it.

And there is a sense of being in 'my country' in all of it. And I like the people everywhere we've been.
And I'm proud of most of what we have accomplished as a nation and that we are among the most generous people on earth. I think its pretty much universal pride, nationalism, and patriotism I feel.

But I have friends in the UK, in Ireland, in Turkey, in Italy, in Austria, in Australia, and in Mexico who I think feel just as passionately about their homelands. I pity those who don't.

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Foxfyre wrote:

that we are among the most generous people on earth.

This is demonstrably - and indisputably - false.

Quote:

I think its pretty much universal pride, nationalism, and patriotism I feel.

Awesome. But it is retarded to build an entire ideology on those feelings, as the right wing does.

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Re: "My country/president, right or wrong!"

JustanObserver wrote:

Just wondering, does that phrase bother you as much as it does me?

Yep, it's pathetic conservative crap-like most of what conservatives come up with.

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Quote:

Foxfyre wrote:
that we are among the most generous people on earth.

This is demonstrably - and indisputably - false.

Quote:
I think its pretty much universal pride, nationalism, and patriotism I feel.

Awesome. But it is retarded to build an entire ideology on those feelings, as the right wing does.

Quote:

JustanObserver wrote:
Just wondering, does that phrase bother you as much as it does me?

Yep, it's pathetic conservative crap-like most of what conservatives come up with

OOooo. Ouch. Owie. Owie. Owie....

Well, I want to thank you.
My transformation just became complete.
I have been espousing right wing conservative "crap" for awhile now, but have always preserved that dark corner of my soul where I can always return to being a left wing liberal - just in case....
But, now I am a man (or a fountain pen - insided joke)
Ich bin ein Right Wing Conservative. Laughing

As for my country, the United States of America, it's a pretty damn good place.
I've visited, but not lived in other places.
However, based on news and history, the United States would seem to be the fairest; most just; most generous; most diverse; most easy to live in; most safe; most secure; wealthiest; most powerful nation on G-d's green earth.
I like that in a country.
But for those that believe this is a load of crap: What country in the world is better?
Which has more sterling qualities than the United States?
Why?
Where?
Be Well. Cool

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SCoates, the idea is that war always conscripts the young (the best) to do man's worst. Yep, guns are a part of it all, I guess.

Noddy, that quote goes something like:

My country, in matters of ......may she always be right, but my country, right or wrong.

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To my: ....we are among the most generous people on earth.
ILZ writes

Quote:

This is demonstrably - and indisputably - false.

To my: I think its pretty much universal pride, nationalism, and patriotism I feel.

Quote:

Awesome. But it is retarded to build an entire ideology on those feelings, as the right wing does.

I am not going to spend time hunting up a bunch of stats ILZ, but I think I'm pretty safe that no people anywhere voluntarily give more money/goods/volunteer time to help others than Americans do. I know I'm safe that no country on earth gives more to help people in other countries than does America. Maybe you don't and think everybody else is like you?

And maybe it's retarded --remind me to get you a thesaurus for Christmas as you really need a new adjective--to feel pride and appreciation for one's country, but I very much appreciate those proud and appreciative Americans who give praise where praise is due and work to help fix the many problems we do have. I have little respect for those who do nothing but whine and complain and trash their country under the very freedoms it provides and call that patriotism.

And it is not pride and respect that forms my ideology, but rather my ideology that allows for pride and respect. I highly recommend it.

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Moishe3rd wrote:

As for my country, the United States of America, it's a pretty damn good place.
I've visited, but not lived in other places.
However, based on news and history, the United States would seem to be the fairest; most just; most generous; most diverse; most easy to live in; most safe; most secure; wealthiest; most powerful nation on G-d's green earth.
I like that in a country.

It's the wealthiest and most powerful, but that's all you've got right. You wouldn't know justice if it smacked you in the face, and judging by the pile of worthless tripe you've spewed here, that's not likely to happen any time soon.

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conservatism is a cancer, and everything it touches turns to sh!t.

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Wilso wrote:

conservatism is a cancer, and everything it touches turns to sh!t.

I do so enjoy a debate where one can state his entire philosophy on life, the universe and everything in one pithy, precise piece of blather.

However, I understand.
I was a Liberal before they tried to kill me.

"The realisation that one is to be hanged in the morning concentrates the mind wonderfully." - Samuel Johnson

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Foxfyre wrote:

I am not going to spend time hunting up a bunch of stats ILZ, but I think I'm pretty safe that no people anywhere voluntarily give more money/goods/volunteer time to help others than Americans do. I know I'm safe that no country on earth gives more to help people in other countries than does America. Maybe you don't and think everybody else is like you?

Don't worry - you're not alone in your ignorance. A recent showed that the average American thinks we give 25% of our budget to foriegn aid. The real number is actually more than 250 times less. No Joke.

We give a smaller percentage of our GDP than any other industrialized nation on Earth. We agreed to give .7% over a decade ago - and trumpeted that as being some kind of moral leadership - but have never given more than .1%.

Now, even if we tabulate all of the eleemosynary funds given by private citizens, churchs, and charities in the United States our total foriegn aid would only double. That would still leave us among the least generous nations on Earth, but it would be enough to put us ahead of two nations - New Zealand and Luxembourg.

So, no, we are not the most generous nation on Earth. In fact, we are among the least.

Quote:

And maybe it's retarded --remind me to get you a thesaurus for Christmas as you really need a new adjective--to feel pride and appreciation for one's country, but I very much appreciate those proud and appreciative Americans who give praise where praise is due and work to help fix the many problems we do have. I have little respect for those who do nothing but whine and complain and trash their country under the very freedoms it provides and call that patriotism.

And it is not pride and respect that forms my ideology, but rather my ideology that allows for pride and respect. I highly recommend it.

This isn't the first time your jingoism has lead you to make retarded, silly claims. Conservative ideology - whether it's in Iran, America, Japan, or Burkina Faso - is based on fallacious appeals to tradition and nationality. People of all creeds and colors find it appealing to put faith in thier particular nation, cultural values, religion, etc. They go to great lengths to justify these irrational and purely arbitrary beliefs. They base all kinds of policy decisions on those beliefs. This is simply retarded, and it leads to institutionalized myopia, and that lack of perspective leads to disasterous policy decisions. Stop trying to euphemize your delusion with words like 'patriot' and 'pride' and call it what it is: an irrational ideology based on tradition and myopia.

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IronLionZion wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I am not going to spend time hunting up a bunch of stats ILZ, but I think I'm pretty safe that no people anywhere voluntarily give more money/goods/volunteer time to help others than Americans do. I know I'm safe that no country on earth gives more to help people in other countries than does America. Maybe you don't and think everybody else is like you?

Don't worry - you're not alone in your ignorance. A recent showed that the average American thinks we give 25% of our budget to foriegn aid. The real number is actually more than 250 times less. No Joke.

We give a smaller percentage of our GDP than any other industrialized nation on Earth. We agreed to give .7% over a decade ago - and trumpeted that as being some kind of moral leadership - but have never given more than .1%.

Now, even if we tabulate all of the eleemosynary funds given by private citizens, churchs, and charities in the United States our total foriegn aid would only double. That would still leave us among the least generous nations on Earth, but it would be enough to put us ahead of two nations - New Zealand and Luxembourg.

Thanks, I was going to make some kind of argument like that but didnt have the stamina. The Netherlands, by the way - one thing I do like about my country, though the current right-wing government is busying itself to change it - does spend .7% of its budget on development aid. Scandinavian countries do even better.

But ILZ, we are making a big thought mistake here - thats to say, we are talking a different language from Fox. Because - and I dont mean this derogatory at all, just stating what I think is a fundamental difference of perspective - I'm sure that Fox also counts all the wars America has fought as "helping other peoples". If you believe that the war in Iraq was really about liberating a people from dictatorship (rather than, say, about protecting or furthering America's interests), then all the money and lives spent in that war count towards how America helps other peoples. I would guess she even thinks the time, money and lives spent by America in Vietnam was, in effect, spent on "helping other peoples".

If thats how you see it, then the sum works out very differently. If you count such wars along with development aid, charity et cetera, then yeah, America probably does end up somewhere on top ...

The difference, of course, is that real charity is given without expectation of return. Thats true for what churchgoers give and slightly less so, but generally still, for governmental development aid as well. The wars the US (or whoever) fights, however, even if good effects do come forth from it (e.g. exit Saddam), are definitely not without such demand of return. They are waged to safeguard loyal partners in geostrategic places, access to natural resources, the eradication of enemy powers. We're not talking charity here.

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Foxfyre wrote:

But Nimh, Marlene did exactly what I would suggest anybody should do if they honestly believe the United States is not the best place to be. If I get to the point I need to trash my country, I'll leave it as I said.

OK, yeah, you're right on Marlene. But what about what I said earlier? I dont think Holland is necessarily the best country on earth, but I live here because, well, "simple. This is where my family lives. My friends. My job's here. I'm familiar with the place. The skies are beautiful."

So here I am. Imagine this government goes more rightwing still, and I get really, really upset / alarmed by the direction my country is heading in. I'm not going to keep mum about it, either - for one, because I dont think thats right. Do I still have the right to want to keep on living in this country for all the above reasons, even when I will say out loud that I think my government is just absolutely wrong? Or should I sacrifice living near my friends and family if I cant be loyal to my government?

Nation or individual, which one goes first ...

Foxfyre wrote:

My 'bit' is on the high desert of New Mexico.....the land is harsh, there is little green, little surface water, yet it is beautiful in its own way. My son rotates beween the rangeland and wheatfields of the Texas Panhandle and the Gulf Coast; my daughter is in the Monterey Bay area of California. We have lived in Texas, in the Southwest, in the Midwest, and in the East and we have travelled to all but I think 5 states now. Alaska is incredible. Hawaii is incredible. New England is incredible. The West Coast is incredible. There is no place that doesn't have something to commend it.

And there is a sense of being in 'my country' in all of it. And I like the people everywhere we've been.

Perhaps this is part of the difference. Just like you've been in most all of the states of the US, I've been in most all of the countries of Europe. And I found Italy, Spain, the Czech Republic and Sweden "incredible", too - at least as incredible as my own country. Each country has its own treasures. Holland does too, but they dont particularly outshine all the others'.

I also greatly liked the people I met and sometimes made friends with in Greece, Hungary, Russia and yes, even Germany ;-). Sometimes I felt alienated by the differences - especially in Russia, or, say, the Slovak countryside. But I also (especially lately) feel alienated when I go to the business district of Amsterdam, or to the suburbs here - just strongly feeling, these people are not like me. Whereas in Berlin, I can find places I feel at home in, just like I can in Amsterdam or Rotterdam.

There is some stuff thats only here, in Holland, and that makes me feel at home here. But there is other stuff that seems shared by Amsterdam, Berlin, Prague and Budapest, thats just not there in Nieuwegein (a suburb here). In any of these cities I can find a place that has people just like me - or more like me than those in Nieuwegein, in any case. So it all relativates it somewhat.

I dont feel lonely or bitter when I realise that Holland is not necessarily the "best country on earth", btw ... I feel secure in knowing what I really like about this place and what I dont like about it - and that there's other countries that I really like some stuff about too - and really dislike some stuff about as well. Holland is as good a place to live in as most countries, - its not supreme, and I might still move some time - but its fine. Is that a feeling thats to be pitied?

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No Nimh. I overstepped with the 'feeling sorry' thing and I apologize for saying it badly. But I guess I would wish that everybody did feel about their country the way I feel about mine.

Would I continue to live in the desert Southwest if it was practical to move someplace else. No I would not, but I can't see myself leaving the U.S. I think Vancouver is one of the most beautiful cities on earth, but I don't think I would choose to live there. Mile for mile, Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, Scotland, Ireland, and many other countries have as much or more beauty than the U.S. but I don't want to relocate to any of those places either.

For me to say my country is best does not imply that it is better than everybody else. It is just how I feel about it. It is best for me. I would wish that for everybody. And while there is plenty to condemn about the U.S., there is ever so much more to commend. And that's where I come from when I defend my country.

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I will concede that the U.S., though contributing the most in dollars for direct government aid, contributes less than others based on percentages of GNP. The percentage of development aid dropped to almost zero in the Clinton administration and has been steadily increasing every year in the Bush administration. (So much for those 'evil' greedy Republicans eh?)

I will not concede that Americans are not among the most generous of people:

Quote:

Side note on private contributions

As an aside, it should be emphasized that the above figures are comparing government spending. Such spending has been agreed at international level and is spread over a number of priorities.

Individual/private donations may be targeted in many ways. However, even though the charts above do show U.S. aid to be poor (in percentage terms) compared to the rest, the generosity of the people of America is far more impressive than their government. As discussed further below, the government spending has tied agendas that has often been detrimental to the recipient. Private aid/donation in contrast has been through charity on individual people and organizations though this of course can be weighted to certain interests and areas. Nonetheless, it is interesting to note for example, per latest estimates, Americans privately give at least $34 billion overseas -- more than three times U.S. official foreign aid of $10 billion:

International giving by U.S. foundations totals $1.5 billion per year
Charitable giving by U.S. businesses now comes to at least $2.8 billion annually
American NGOs gave over $6.6 billion in grants, goods and volunteers.
Religious overseas ministries contribute $3.4 billion, including health care, literacy training, relief and development.
$1.3 billion by U.S. colleges are given in scholarships to foreign students
Personal remittances from the U.S. to developing countries came to $18 billion in 2000
Source: Dr. Carol Aderman, Aid and Comfort, Tech Central Station, 21 August 2002. (Aderman admits that there are no complete figures for international private giving. Hence these numbers may be taken in caution, but even with caution, these are high numbers.)
(Unfortunately I have found it very difficult to find comparative figures for private donations from other regions.)
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

Nimh is correct that I do count America's contribution of military might that has been critical to free hundreds of millions of people from brutal totalitarian regimes and dictatorships. And I also count the hundred and thousands of American volunteers who, at their own expense, rush to the aid of disaster victims all over the world.

I also count the U.S. contributions to provide welfare, education, and health care to millions of illegals who are coming into this country by the many thousands every year. We are so evil you see, that people risk their very lives to be here. Do any other countries take such good care of people who manage to sneak in illegally? This is placing terrible financial burdens on especially the southern border states, but we do it. You have to count it.

Can others share in the credit? Of course they can. But don't thumb your nose at America and say we do little or nothing at all.

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Foxfyre wrote:

But Nimh, Marlene did exactly what I would suggest anybody should do if they honestly believe the United States is not the best place to be. If I get to the point I need to trash my country, I'll leave it as I said.

Fox, I'm still curious about this one. Cause its really kindof about the bottom line on the whole "love it or leave it" thing. What would your answer be?

nimh wrote:

But what about what I said earlier? I dont think Holland is necessarily the best country on earth, but I live here because, well, "simple. This is where my family lives. My friends. My job's here. I'm familiar with the place. The skies are beautiful."

So here I am. Imagine this government goes more rightwing still, and I get really, really upset / alarmed by the direction my country is heading in. I'm not going to keep mum about it, either - for one, because I dont think thats right. Do I still have the right to want to keep on living in this country for all the above reasons, even when I will say out loud that I think my government is just absolutely wrong? Or should I sacrifice living near my friends and family if I cant be loyal to my government?

Nation or individual, which one goes first ...

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Nimh I advocate people living where they want to be. I also advocate them wanting to be in what is a good place for them. If Marlene found her country unacceptable, then she is right to leave it and go someplace that is more acceptable. If my country ever gets to the point I think it is unacceptable I'll leave if I can. It's as simple as that. Meanwhile I, like you, live in a place that is less than ideal (I love the ocean and the mountains and live in neither) but it is pretty okay for now for practical reasons.

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Now we're counting WARS???? I'll give you WW II. And Haiti.

bejesus.

I suppose you're gonna try and count Vietnam!!! The nightmarish dictators the USA has sponsored and/or helped install! The elected leaders it has helped to topple and/or kill?

C'mon - the USA is like most other countries. Some fabulous bits - some nightmarish bits - a lot in between. I personally find much to like and praise in the USA - just as I like many other countries, including my own - but I also find much to be appalled by. Ditto with my own. And I WILL continue to be speaking out about 'em.

Yes, your citizens are often privately and corporately generous - so they ought to be. They are enormously wealthy by world standards.

By all means love it if you wish - but right or wrong? Well, if I went about with closed eyes, I would bump into stuff. Mebbe you have better senses?

This has got so nuts, I am out of here!

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"My country/president, right or wrong!"

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