Be american!!

A real american dosent run for another country when his government is doing wrong. They stay and fight the bad government run by the immoral politicians. We support our soilders who were sent by these immoral politicians to fight in thier immoral wars but we fight the politicians.Politicians and our soilders are two different groups.

0 Replies

You can't change America.

0 Replies

I agree Rabel. But some I know who are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan don't feel supported hearing the people back home trashing their commander in chief and insisting they are fighting in an illegal and immoral war. And yes, they do believe the militants are encouraged by the same rhetoric and it is costing American lives.

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

I agree Rabel. But some I know who are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan don't feel supported hearing the people back home trashing their commander in chief and insisting they are fighting in an illegal and immoral war. And yes, they do believe the militants are encouraged by the same rhetoric and it is costing American lives.

Bush isn't responsible. Those who disagree with him are really doing the killing Rolling Eyes

0 Replies

The argument that soldiers feel undermined when so many call the war misguided or immoral is just another tool for stifling dissent and should be treated as such. Soldiers having real maturity of mind know that the right to dissent is one of the things they are supposedly fighting for.

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

I do not call them cowards. I call them what they are: murderers who target innocents, who create unbelievable suffering, who are without conscience, and all for their own glory and reward.

Your lack of perspective is astounding.

0 Replies

IronLionZion wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I do not call them cowards. I call them what they are: murderers who target innocents, who create unbelievable suffering, who are without conscience, and all for their own glory and reward.

Your lack of perspective is astounding.

Actually, I thought that was quite a good description.

Money, power and cold-blooded murderous incitement is behind most of the Death Cultists that are murdering people throughout the Muslim world. Nothing else.
It has little to do with "man in the street" Islam. It has everything to do with Islamic Fascist Death Cultists who seek glory and power for their sick cult.
And, oddly enough, it has nothing to do with true fanatic religiousbeliefs. Confused

No Moslem preacher has ever blown himself up. No son of an Arab politician or religious leader has ever blown himself. No relative of anyone influential has done it. You might expect some of the religious leaders to do it themselves, or to talk their sons into doing it, if this is truly a supreme act of religious fervor.
Wouldn't they be interested in the benefits of going to Heaven?
No, they send outcast women, naïve children, retarded people and young incited hotheads to die and murder.
They promise them the delights, mostly sexual, of the next world, and pay their families handsomely after the supreme act is performed and enough innocent people are dead.

And, this insanity has little to do with poverty and despair. There was certainly more despair in Saddam's Iraq then in Paul Bremmer's Iraq, and no one exploded himself. A suicide murder terrorist Islamo Fascist Death Cultist is simply a horrible, vicious weapon of cruel, inhuman, cynical, well-funded Islamo Fascists, with no regard to human life, including the life of their fellow countrymen, but with very high regard to their own affluent well-being and their hunger for power.

(The above is plagerized, in part, from Haim Harari, a theoretical physicist, in his speech "A View from the Eye of the Storm")

0 Replies

Thanks Moishe. I won't pile on here (though it was sooooo easy). Smile

0 Replies

Moishe3rd wrote:

IronLionZion wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I do not call them cowards. I call them what they are: murderers who target innocents, who create unbelievable suffering, who are without conscience, and all for their own glory and reward.

Your lack of perspective is astounding.

Actually, I thought that was quite a good description.

That is because you are more myopic than Foxfyre.

Quote:

Money, power and cold-blooded murderous incitement is behind most of the Death Cultists that are murdering people throughout the Muslim world. Nothing else.
It has little to do with "man in the street" Islam. It has everything to do with Islamic Fascist Death Cultists who seek glory and power for their sick cult.

Dude, dysphemising the word 'terrorist' isn't going to make your point - whatever that is - any more convincing.

I could, for example, be equally ridiculous by calling Christians 'Baby Murderer Worshipping Ancient Magic Jesus Cultists.'

And, despite your stirring speech, Islamic terrorism - unlike, say, many of the wars America has fought - has little to do with enriching it's proponants.

Televangeleists and other Christian leaders on the other hand......

Quote:

And, oddly enough, it has nothing to do with true fanatic religiousbeliefs.

I don't know how to respond to this. Other than to say: It does.

Quote:

No Moslem preacher has ever blown himself up. No son of an Arab politician or religious leader has ever blown himself. No relative of anyone influential has done it. You might expect some of the religious leaders to do it themselves, or to talk their sons into doing it, if this is truly a supreme act of religious fervor. Wouldn't they be interested in the benefits of going to Heaven? No, they send outcast women, naïve children, retarded people and young incited hotheads to die and murder.

Depends on how you qualify a 'teacher' or 'leader' or 'preacher.' There is no formal ranking system in Islam like there is in Christianity and Judaism, so there really are no formal religious leaders. What may be a leader to one man or group has no authority or influence over another.

In any case, the same argument could be made for most American leaders and thier unwillingness to go to war themselves or send thier sons and daughters to war.

Quote:

And, this insanity has little to do with poverty and despair. There was certainly more despair in Saddam's Iraq then in Paul Bremmer's Iraq, and no one exploded himself.

Although it is hard to be accurate about the situation in Iraq today, most would agree that the daily lives of Iraqis haven't improved much, and many would argue they have gotten worse. They'd probably cite spiraling unemployment, lack of electricity, lack of running water, the constant threat of terrorist bombings, etc, etc, etc.

Quote:

A suicide murder terrorist Islamo Fascist Death Cultist is simply a horrible, vicious weapon of cruel, inhuman, cynical, well-funded Islamo Fascists, with no regard to human life, including the life of their fellow countrymen, but with very high regard to their own affluent well-being and their hunger for power.

Islamo **** Death **** Cultist *** Crazy **** Killer **** ****** ***** Halal **** Fascist ***** Communism ****** *** Psychopath Jihadis ***** Supr-Evil ***** **** Commies *** ***** **** Towel Headed ***** ****.

0 Replies

Okey dokey IronLionZion, do tell.
These people, according to you, are not:
Islamic?
Fascist?
Death Cultists?
Terrorists?
Vicious?
Inhuman?
Cynical?
Violent?

I would beg your indulgence - before you try and explain to me how America or George Bush or Dick Cheney or the power mad oil companies or the Bildeburgers or the Zionists or whomever you like to call evil, are all of the above. Please explain to me how the enemy we are fighting is not of the above.
What's your argument?

0 Replies

Moishe3rd wrote:

Okey dokey IronLionZion, do tell.
These people, according to you, are not:
Islamic?
Fascist?
Death Cultists?
Terrorists?
Vicious?
Inhuman?
Cynical?
Violent?

I'd argue some are accurate and some are not. But that is beside the point. The point is that you insist on dysphemising the wrod 'terrorist' to make it look scarier and to buttress your bankrupt argument.

Watch, as I ask you an equally meaningless series of questions.

Technically speaking are Christians not:

Ancient?
Cultists?
Baby Murderer Worshippers?
Magic Jesus Believers?

Quote:

I would beg your indulgence - before you try and explain to me how America or George Bush or Dick Cheney or the power mad oil companies or the Bildeburgers or the Zionists or whomever you like to call evil, are all of the above. Please explain to me how the enemy we are fighting is not of the above.
What's your argument?

Pointing out the fact that you make no sense doesn't mean I believe in conspiracy theories of a war for oil or crazed Zionists. I believe in no such thing.

I hope this little conversation has been a valuble excercise in perspective.

0 Replies

IronLionZion wrote:

Moishe3rd wrote:

Okey dokey IronLionZion, do tell.
These people, according to you, are not:
Islamic?
Fascist?
Death Cultists?
Terrorists?
Vicious?
Inhuman?
Cynical?
Violent?

I'd argue some are accurate and some are not. But that is beside the point. The point is that you insist on dysphemising the wrod 'terrorist' to make it look scarier and to buttress your bankrupt argument.

Watch, as I ask you an equally meaningless series of questions.

Technically speaking are Christians not:

Ancient?
Cultists?
Baby Murderer Worshippers?
Magic Jesus Believers?

Quote:
I would beg your indulgence - before you try and explain to me how America or George Bush or Dick Cheney or the power mad oil companies or the Bildeburgers or the Zionists or whomever you like to call evil, are all of the above. Please explain to me how the enemy we are fighting is not of the above.
What's your argument?

Pointing out the fact that you make no sense doesn't mean I believe in conspiracy theories of a war for oil or crazed Zionists. I believe in no such thing.

I hope this little conversation has been a valuble excercise in perspective.

No, because you give no perspective. Ooops. Yes. You did clarify that you do not hold with the conspiracy theories of the war in Iraq. This is good.
But, I am blissfully unaware of what you do hold.

Technically speaking, in today, 2004, Christians are not:
Ancient, Cultic, Baby Murderer Worshipping, Magic Jesus Believers.
Which could also be said that neither are Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, or most other (not all) mainstream religious groups.

To name the qualities of a particular group that demonstrates these qualities is to attempt to clarify what it is that we are fighting.

Rather than responding by showing how one could villify oil companies and Zionists, you responded by showing how one could villify Christians.
I apologize for being too specific.
Could you explain how these qualities I listed are not true, without using the solipsism of comparing them to anyone else?

0 Replies

Moishe3rd wrote:

IronLionZion wrote:
Moishe3rd wrote:

Okey dokey IronLionZion, do tell.
These people, according to you, are not:
Islamic?
Fascist?
Death Cultists?
Terrorists?
Vicious?
Inhuman?
Cynical?
Violent?

I'd argue some are accurate and some are not. But that is beside the point. The point is that you insist on dysphemising the wrod 'terrorist' to make it look scarier and to buttress your bankrupt argument.

Watch, as I ask you an equally meaningless series of questions.

Technically speaking are Christians not:

Ancient?
Cultists?
Baby Murderer Worshippers?
Magic Jesus Believers?

Quote:
I would beg your indulgence - before you try and explain to me how America or George Bush or Dick Cheney or the power mad oil companies or the Bildeburgers or the Zionists or whomever you like to call evil, are all of the above. Please explain to me how the enemy we are fighting is not of the above.
What's your argument?

Pointing out the fact that you make no sense doesn't mean I believe in conspiracy theories of a war for oil or crazed Zionists. I believe in no such thing.

I hope this little conversation has been a valuble excercise in perspective.

No, because you give no perspective. Ooops. Yes. You did clarify that you do not hold with the conspiracy theories of the war in Iraq. This is good.
But, I am blissfully unaware of what you do hold.

Technically speaking, in today, 2004, Christians are not:
Ancient, Cultic, Baby Murderer Worshipping, Magic Jesus Believers.
Which could also be said that neither are Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, or most other (not all) mainstream religious groups.

To name the qualities of a particular group that demonstrates these qualities is to attempt to clarify what it is that we are fighting.

Rather than responding by showing how one could villify oil companies and Zionists, you responded by showing how one could villify Christians.
I apologize for being too specific.
Could you explain how these qualities I listed are not true, without using the solipsism of comparing them to anyone else?

You're immune to logic.

0 Replies

edgarblythe wrote:

The argument that soldiers feel undermined when so many call the war misguided or immoral is just another tool for stifling dissent and should be treated as such. Soldiers having real maturity of mind know that the right to dissent is one of the things they are supposedly fighting for.

Edgar,I am forced to comment on this statement. You are partially correct,the military does know that part of why we fight is to allow you to dissent.
We have no problem with that.BUT,when your dissent results in soldiers getting killed,thats another story.
When dissenters actually help the enemy (human shields in Iraq,providing financial aid to al queda,etc)that places our forces in more jeopardy then is needed.I can remember before the gulf war,dissenters were predicting thousands of body bags,filled with US remains,would be the result.They were wrong,but the idea that we were that weak did get to Iraq and we lost people we shouldn't have.
When people believe that their enemy is that weak,it does stiffen their resolve,and as a result more people die.
Lets go even further back in history,ok.
Tokyo Rose was a dissenter also.She was a US citizen,opposed to our fight against Japan in WW2.She actually went to Japan and started her infamous broadcasts.Those broadcasts got hundreds of US soldiers killed,because she was broadcasting actual troops movements and positions.I must ask,was that dissent ok with you?

Also,does calling me a "mass murderer,baby killer",and other names qualify as dissent? I have been called that since I returned from Iraq.
I have been called those names by people that claim to be opposed to the war.They have gone so far as to be standing in front of VA hospitals,screaming that at every vet going in.
Do you support that action?

0 Replies

"But some I know who are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan don't feel supported hearing the people back home trashing their commander in chief and insisting they are fighting in an illegal and immoral war. And yes, they do believe the militants are encouraged by the same rhetoric and it is costing American lives. "

This is EXACTLY what we heard re Vietnam, but that war too was indefensible, and it was precisely the persistent voice of dissent that ultimately ended it.

The best thing we can do to show our support for our soldiers in Iraq is to bring them home. Do you think any of them would object to that?

We need to get out, own up to our mistakes, and allow Iraq to try to find a way to work through the mess we created without our presence there. Perhaps the rest of the world would be more inclined to help out if we were not still calling the shots (which we still are).

0 Replies

The dumbass notion that to dissent from the war gets soldiers killed is, as I said, a tool for stifling dissent and gets treated as such.

0 Replies

Nice dodge Edgar,but you didn't answer my question.
Are you saying then that the dissent by Tokyo Rose was ok during WW2?
That got marines killed in WW2.

I have not said,nor will I ever say,that dissent is wrong.BUT,it must be reasonable.
Dissent can take many forms.It can be vocal protest marches,it can be someone that destroys weapons or munitions somehow,it can be calling returning soldiers "baby killers",it can be feeding information to a third party,hoping it reaches enemy forces.
Tell me,which one of those methods are you willing to say is wrong,if any?

Honest,reasonable dissent is part of what made this country great,and I will always support that.Nut,when that dissent has the ability to get people killed,then it becomes wrong.
For you to claim that dissent has never gotten any soldiers killed is to be both blind to history and willingly ignorant of the dangers.
So,you can dissent all you want,but if it causes men to die needlessly,then I will call that exactly what it is.

0 Replies

You are confusingg dissent with acts of treason. You want to tarr dissenters with the same brush as Tokyo Rose and it only works in Super Secrit Meetings of the Let's Get Those Commies Once and For All.

0 Replies

Quote:

For much of the American media, their role in turning public opinion against the Vietnam war was among their proudest achievements. For our enemies, Vietnam provided a formula for defeating Americans politically at home when they could not be defeated militarily on the battlefield. Iraqi terrorists are already saying that they will create another Vietnam.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell.html

0 Replies

well, ain't the baby ox a beaut. "third world justice" is what the dear little snookums wants?

would that be cattle prods and gitmo?...or are gas chambers on your mind as well?

so, as a patriotic american who believes our strength is our diversity of opinions and in honor of today, the 200th aniversary of the burr/hamilton duel. i hereby challenge the baby ox to a duel.

BTW; mysterman you mentioned that

Quote:

When dissenters actually help the enemy (human shields in Iraq,providing financial aid to al queda,etc)

talk is cheapest commodity there is. but then again, the brainiac that you are, you must have the goods to back up your claim that the 50% of the american people who are dissenting on bush and his wild west ride thru mesopotamia are aiding and abetting terrorism? or are you telling us here that the few americans and other nationals who are willing to sacrifice their own bodies for peace, or such financiers (btw: mostly saudis, you know, those old family friends of george bush?) of the al quida are representative of the 50% of the american people against this war and bush?

i don't agree with you on that. it is using the cloak of patriotism to cloak scoundrels. nor do i believe that dissent hurts the america i have grown to love. i do agree that it hurts george bush, but america is not george bush.

in your meandering peregrinations across the boundaries of sensibility perhaps you can explain how it is that you and your dear buddy ox have arrived at using the same rhetorical devices of threatening and silencing dissenters that are also used by america's enemies and are as well seemingly prepared (as ox wants) to do to your american opponents exactly what the al quida wants to do to all of us?

i dont know which is worse, listening to americans who want to silence me or kill me because i believe in the american freedom to dissent or al quida, because they want kill me because i live in a country where dissent is legal.

your fellow americans who disagree with you are not your enemy. when you (collectively, as ox is included) call for silencing (and by force if need be, as ox states) non-violent dissent and attempt to villianize as enemies americans who dissent from your ideas, you can just as readily and reasonably be accused of attacking the real, gained-by-the-blood-of-our-forefathers freedom of dissent and liberty in america and of doing bin laden's handiwork for him.

Yes, back to Pogo we go.

there are as many people opposed to this stupid war as support it. i would submit that in the fullness of time it is those alleged patriots who support senseless, costly, and bloody conflicts in far-away lands are the ones who are making this country less safe than before.

i just wish my uncle was here to tell you all about it, but he's already dead. he died in a jungle in southeast asia during a previous futile war.

0 Replies

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know