17
   

WIND AND WATER

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2015 09:29 pm
@raprap,
another replica is the KKalmar Nyckel, which splits its time between Lewes Del and Wilmington. Heres a picture of it berthed in a tidal crick in Wilmington Del.

       https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Wilmington_Riverfront.JPG
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2015 10:12 pm
@farmerman,
I recall a similar looking setup that had wind turbines in side the stacks. That was in connection with a ship used by Costeau, or whatever that SCUBA guy was called.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2015 10:52 pm
@roger,
everybody just called him "Scuba guy" , and his wife, she was called "Mrs Scuba Guy".

0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2015 11:16 pm
@farmerman,
Wish I could pay for all the rope used on those ships. That's not what I would use the money for, but be nice to have it.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2015 11:37 pm
@roger,
... and perhaps spend it on Hamburg's Reeperbahn (the name Reeperbahn means ropewalk), Hamburg's nightlife and red-light district. Wink
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 12:29 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Honestly Walt, just the name (as translated) sounds a little intimidating.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 12:38 am
@roger,
I knew that you would like it.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 01:23 am
@farmerman,
The cylinders spin and the boundary layer separates farther on the side where relative velocity is maximized. It's called the Magnus Effect and its the secret of the curve ball in baseball.



Rap
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 01:37 am
@raprap,
That's pretty cool. A sailing vessel which is very close-hauled to the wind, and especially schooners, ketches and yawls, are often being drawn through the water rather than pushed. On the same principle as lift for the wings of aircraft, the air rushing past the back side of the sail draw the vessel onward--the ship is being pulled, not pushed. Modern racing yachts have, for years, been using what is called a mainsail twist to take more advantage of the effect.

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Masts/SAILS%20&%20TWIST.jpg
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2015 04:30 pm

The world's first frigate (as the term was understood during the age of sail) was the Swedish warship Hvita Örn (White Eagle):
http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=18658

It originally entered service in 1711 as a typical fifth rate of the time (two rows of main guns, larger than a sixth rate and smaller than a fourth rate).

However in 1715 it was rebuilt to have a single main gun deck, becoming the world's first frigate (there was a war in the region, and as usual war spurs military innovation).

Almost immediately after being rebuilt, it was captured by Denmark and renamed Hvide Ørn (White Eagle):
http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=18041

Danish blueprints of the captured ship (at the link it is the one dated 1715):
http://www.orlogsbasen.dk/visskib.asp?skib=Hvide%20%D8rn&la=1
http://www.orlogsbasen.dk/tegn/A762.jpg

I think this is an enlargement of the same blueprints:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/felipe/Sweden/Sweden_Ships_Pictures/Vita_Orn_1711/vita_orn_1711.html
http://koti.mbnet.fi/felipe/Sweden/Sweden_Ships_Pictures/Vita_Orn_1711/svarta_orn_1711.JPG

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The world's first 18 pounder frigate was the Swedish warship Illerim, which entered service in 1716:
http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=18671

As with White Eagle, it was quickly captured by Denmark. It entered Danish service under the name Iderim:
http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=18068

Historical drawing of the upper hull:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/felipe/Sweden/Sweden_Ships_Pictures/Illerim_1716/illerim_1716.html
http://koti.mbnet.fi/felipe/Sweden/Sweden_Ships_Pictures/Illerim_1716/illerim_1716.jpg

I've no idea what Illerim/Iderim translates into.

The war that spurred the development of these ships:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_War
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2015 04:42 pm
Frigates were being built in the 17th century. The term "frigate-built" is attested as early as 1630. The word frigate is attested in French as early as 1520.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2015 04:53 pm
The Royal Navy lists four frigates in the Navy of King Charles I:

Roebuck 10 (1636)
Greyhound 12 (1636)
Expedition 14/30 (1637)
Providence 14/30 (1637)

The Royal Navy lists the first "true" frigate as Constant Warwick, 32, built privately in 1645 and hired by the navy in 1646, then purchased outright by the Commonwealth in 1649.

The term frigate was in use for centuries, long before the 18th century, and it's silly to talk about "as understood" in any era. Constant Warwick certainly fills the bill.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2015 05:17 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Constant Warwick certainly fills the bill.

Constant Warwick had two main gun decks:
http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=11979
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Constant_Warwick_%281645%29

A true frigate has only one main gun deck.
bobsal u1553115
 
  4  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2015 07:47 pm
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fpdracer.com%2Fsailboat-games%2Fwater-world-race%2Fwaterworld-trimaran-sailboat-2.jpg&f=1
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 03:41 am
@oralloy,
I see no reason to accept you as an authority on the subject of frigates, or of any type of warship in the age of sail. You apparently didn't even read the Wikipedia article you link in your rush to assert an authority you don't possess. Many early frigates had guns only on the forecastle and the quarter deck--that doesn't mean they weren't frigates. Take this political thread style of argument somewhere else. I don't want you trashing this thread with it.

So, i don't consider you an authority.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 06:52 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
You apparently didn't even read the Wikipedia article you link in your rush to assert an authority you don't possess.

Here is a quote from that wikipedia article:
"The term 'frigate' during the period of this ship referred to a method of construction, rather than a role which did not develop until the following century."

Note the fact that the definition changed. Something that might be a frigate by the earlier definition will not necessarily be a frigate by the later definition.


Another wikipedia article:
"The classic sailing frigate, well-known today for its role in the Napoleonic wars, can be traced back to French developments in the second quarter of the 18th century. The French-built Médée of 1740 is often regarded as the first example of this type. These ships were square-rigged and carried all their main guns on a single continuous upper deck. The lower deck, known as the 'gun deck', now carried no armament, and functioned as a 'berth deck' where the crew lived, and was in fact placed below the waterline of the new frigates.[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigate

This article is a bit inaccurate though. Médée may well have been the first French frigate, but those Baltic frigates came decades earlier.


Here is something from Encyclopedia Britannica (I do not know if this link will work for non-subscribers):
"The Seven Years' War (1756–63) marked the definite adoption of the term frigate for a class of vessel that was smaller than the three-decked ship of the line but was still capable of considerable firepower. A frigate was a three-masted, fully rigged vessel, with its armament carried on a single gun deck and with additional guns on the poop and forecastle."
http://www.britannica.com/technology/frigate


Here is a review of a book about frigates:
"The book traces the development of the frigate chronologically. The first chapters cover frigate predecessors, rather than true frigates. Gardiner uses these ships to trace the evolution of the cruising warship from the small two-deckers of the seventeenth century to the proto-frigates. (These ships called demi-batteries by the French, and built between 1689 and the 1740s, retained some guns in the lower gun deck.)

The final chapters describe the evolution of the true frigate, with its main guns on the upper gun deck, the lower gun deck used exclusively for habitation, and guns on the forecastle and quarterdeck. These chapters cover the period from the true frigate’s introduction in 1748 until the end of the sailing frigate in the 1850s."
http://www.navyhistory.org/2013/03/book-review-the-sailing-frigate-a-history-in-ship-models/

This book makes the same mistake as above. The Baltic frigates came first.


Here is something from Google books:
"It was in fact French stimulus which had prompted the emergence of the true frigate in the first place. The criteria set for the type were that she should carry her main armament on a single gundeck, be supremely weatherly, a good if not an excellent sailer, and possess immense endurance. Almost self sustaining, the frigate was expected to operate anywhere in the world and such ships frequently exerted an influence far outweighing their size. The reasons as to why the French pursued this concept will be dealt with in Chapter Eight.

'Esteemed as excellent cruisers', the frigate became 'a light, nimble ship, built for the purposes of sailing swiftly'. In fact the name had earlier referred to both a small two-decked warship and to a class of merchant ship which was said to be frigate-built and which we shall examine in the next chapter. Like many other common nouns in maritime use, the meaning of the word later crystallized around a particular type of vessel. After the demise of the wooden frigate, her grander, steam-powered iron and steel successors came to be called 'cruisers', defining a specific ship type. The name 'frigate' was revived in 1943 for an entirely different form of warship, but one which was destined to play an equally crucial role in a very different war."
LINK


Setanta wrote:
Many early frigates had guns only on the forecastle and the quarter deck--that doesn't mean they weren't frigates.

That depends on which definition of the term frigate is being used. The definition that was used at the height of the age of sail would indeed exclude them.


Setanta wrote:
Take this political thread style of argument somewhere else. I don't want you trashing this thread with it.

By providing interesting, cool, and historically accurate facts, I have made the thread a hundred times better than it was before I posted in it.

Especially since the facts that I provided are otherwise little-known. Note all the highly-expert sources that are completely wrong in their belief that the first true frigate came in the 1740s.


Setanta wrote:
So, i don't consider you an authority.

How many people in this thread have provided comprehensive proof that the first true frigate came decades earlier than most of the established experts say it did?
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 08:21 am
@oralloy,
the internet has to be one of the most misinformed media when it comes to the mundane and "where's the origin of that"?

Frigates were originally "fst boats" with a less "beamy" construction. They were first originated (In England) to be the "eyes of a task force"

I like to get my boat history from the USS Constitution Museum in Connecticut. Heres a clip from their library:

Quote:


What is a Frigate?
By Commander Tyrone G. Martin, U. S. Navy (Retired)
“Frigate” must be one of the most popular and abused words in the world’s languages. It’s very popularity is indicated by the fact that is recognizable in so many languages: fregat, fregata, etc. The abuse is demonstrated by the many meanings it has had over the centuries.

The earliest references to frigates in the English language occurred in the 15th Century, apparently referring to some smaller type of sailing vessel or craft; almost certainly not a warship. No details of their appearance, means of propulsion, or purpose have survived. Indeed, the word may have been used somewhat generically, as we use “boat.”

After 150 years, during which time naval warfare shifted from occasional efforts by merchant ships armed and pressed into service to built-for-the-purpose warships, and as the weapons with which they were armed became more regularized in caliber and size, by the middle third of the 17th Century, men-of-war were beginning to evolve as discernible types.

In the late 1620s, the English built ten small “cruisers” (ships intended to operate independently) with which to combat Dunkirk pirates preying on the merchant shipping in the English Channel. These were known, fittingly, as the Lion’s Whelps Class, and named First Whelp, Second Whelp, etc. Less than a hundred feet long, and armed with ten or twelve guns, the heavy armament in the tubby hull rendered them unsuccessful.

Then the English did what they probably should have done in the first place: they studied the hull forms of the pirate craft they did manage to capture, and, after some experimentation, began to design anew. They came up with a small, fast sailing ship with a keel length to beam ratio of 4:1 or greater, a long, lean vessel indeed. Armament was carried on the lower deck, out of the weather. The first of these seems to have been named Constant Warwick, built in 1646 and referred to as a “frigate.” She had a keel length of about ninety feet, carried thirty guns, displaced 379 tons, and had a shallower draft than others of that size. Adventure, built the same year, and at least two sisters, were slightly larger and carried thirty-eight guns. So popular was Constant Warwick that the Royal Navy decided to “improve” her by adding another deck and more guns. End of popularity, as she then sailed like “a slug”. Within a decade, the word “frigate” was being used to denote either a ship with a higher than usual keel:beam ratio or one with a good turn of speed. It must be in this sense that the word was used in relation to the 90-gun Naseby
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 09:24 am
@farmerman,
Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 03:29 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
the internet has to be one of the most misinformed media when it comes to the mundane and "where's the origin of that"?

I don't know. The internet has just allowed me to link directly to official blueprints that prove the existence of true frigates decades before the world's experts say true frigates came into being. That's not too shabby.


farmerman wrote:
I like to get my boat history from the USS Constitution Museum in Connecticut. Heres a clip from their library:

Here's another:

"Inevitably, this growth in the size of ships of the line created a growing gap between themselves and the smaller, supporting units of the navy. It was to fill this gap that the frigate of popular history and fiction was designed.

This 'new' frigate, meaning a medium size warship capable of sustained independent operation and powerful enough to take on any warship other than a ship of the line, seems to have had its English origin in a captured French privateer (a licensed, private man of war) named Tygre, which was captured in 1747 and commissioned in the Royal Navy. She carried twenty-six 9-pounder long guns on a single covered deck, and soon was seen to be a most useful addition."

http://www.ussconstitutionmuseum.org/constitution-resources/the-captain-speaks/what-is-a-frigate/
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2015 06:03 pm
Thanks for trashing my thread, asshole. You're never wrong, are you, asshole?

Made it better, more interesting? No, you've just trashed it, you arrogant son of a bitch.
 

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