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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
the prince
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 07:36 am
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=exodus
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 07:42 am


Laughing Laughing

Couldn't get a little more narrow, could you?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 07:45 am
McG
With the republicans in charge we may end up wandering in the desert for 40 years hoping for manna from heaven and dreaming of the promised land.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 07:54 am
Scores Are Dead After Violence Spreads in Iraq
By SABRINA TAVERNISE
The attacks, the most widespread in months, seemed to
demonstrate the growing power of the insurgency across the
country.

One needs a scorecard to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Story
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 10:48 am
Saw an interesting piece on www.metafilter.com this morning.

Thought you might like to see the kinds of things that we do which, yaknow, piss the Iraqis off:

http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/35561

Quote:
Yesterday, Mazen al-Tomasi, a reporter for Al-Arabiya, was broadcasting live from the scene of a carbombed Bradley Fighting Vehicle, which had attracted a crowd of locals. While making his report, a sudden noise came from behind Mazen.
Two Apache helicopters flew in overhead, and one of them started attacking the crowd, with their guns. The crowd, which included several small children, tried to run away. A helicopter launched a missile...
Mazen al-Tomasi was struck by shrapnel from the blast on live television. His cameraman, Seif Fouad, fell down from the force of the explosion. Mazen's blood spattered across the camera's lens and the screams of the dying and injured were heard. Mazen screamed to Seif for help: "Seif, Seif! I'm going to die. I'm going to die."
Seif grabbed Mazen and started to pull him out of harm's way. Suddenly, another missile was launched, and Seif was hit by shrapnel in the leg and abdomen. Seif, seriously wounded, watched his friend Mazen die soon afterwards. Twelve were killed, 61 wounded in the attack.
A US military spokesman said the helicopters opened fire after coming under attack from the crowd, and that they fired to prevent looters from stripping the vehicle. That said, the vehicle was burning too badly to be stripped, and the television footage showed no evidence of any shooting from the ground, or indeed, any armed Iraqis whatsoever. The full video of this is was seen by millions of Arabs and is apparently something that Reuters has the rights to -- Saif works for Reuters -- but something tells me that it will never make the evening news.


Google news links:
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&tab=wn&ncl=http://www.arabnews.com/%3Fpage%3D4%26section%3D0%26article%3D51422%26d%3D13%26m%3D9%26y%3D2004

You conservatives can talk all you want about how we are bringing liberty to Iraq, but if liberty means firing missles from helicopters at children, then maybe the Iraqi's don't want us to liberate them anymore.

Man, I'm angry about this. Stupid sh*t like this just makes things worse and worse as time goes on in Iraq.

Cycloptichorn
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:00 am
When you get done being angry, take a look at the facts.

An american Bradley fighting vehicle was disabled by a car bomb, the guys inside it we're fired upon by militants as they fled the vehicle. A bunch of idiots started dancing around it while it burnt and fired their weapons at the helicopters that were called in to make sure no weapons or intelligence was garnered from the Bradley.

Let's see, I see a burning tank, let me send my kids over to dance around it so when they get killed I can martyr them... Idiots.

Be angry at the right people.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:07 am
There is no reason to believe whatsoever that weapons were fired at the helicopters.

There is no evidence of weapon fire in the video whatsoever, except from the Americans.

The official reason that the choppers fired has changed a few times. First it was 'to disable the vehicle to protect the people around it from a possible larger explosion,' then it was 'to stop them from looting,' then it was 'because they were fired on.'

I don't give a damn if you are being fired on, you don't send missles into a crowd full of women and children. Period. There is no excuse. If that was the intention of the Iraqis (I kinda doubt it) then the US STILL should have acted in a more responsible manner.

I never thought I'd see the day where you apologized for our troops murdering women and children, McG.

Cycloptichorn
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:12 am
You mean other than the pilots reporting they were fired upon? maybe next time they won't gather around a burning US military vehicle, or maybe next time they will stop the insurgents from even attempting to disable a US military vehicle.

You call it murder, I call it an unfortunate incident.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:17 am
Please. Unfortunate accident my ass.

If the pilot of a helicopter is being fired upon, by someone in a crowd of civilians, the responsible and right thing to do is to fly away and send in some troops to clean the place up.

NOT fire MISSLES indiscriminately upon a crowd.

Quote:
You mean other than the pilots reporting they were fired upon? maybe next time they won't gather around a burning US military vehicle, or maybe next time they will stop the insurgents from even attempting to disable a US military vehicle.


The thing is, you don't know what the pilots reported. The initial reports from the US didn't say anything about that; they originally were 'stopping looting.'

But I like the second part of your paragraph better. Because, in that part, you rationalize the murder of civilians by saying that maybe next time the insurgents will know better than to attack the US vehicles, and maybe next time the Iraqi free people won't do anything so stupid as trying to walk down a free street or stopping to look at a burning vehicle, I mean, they are practically terrorists with those actions, right?

Your true colors are showing, facist. Can't stop attacks on our troops? Let's kill a bunch of civilians in an 'unfortuante accident.' That'll teach them a lesson.

Cycloptichorn
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:18 am
http://acpcommunity.acp.edu/facultystaff/blume/mafp/resources/bo030328.jpg
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:20 am
You were there now? You know they are all innocent civilians? You know that no one in the crowd fired at the helicopters?

You know nothing except what the propaganda machines tells you. You believe the worse because you WANT to. You can call me all the names you want, but it will never change the fact that you know NOTHING about what really happened because you WEREN'T THERE!
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:28 am
Neither do you! And yet you stubbornly refuse to find fault in our troops whatsoever, no matter what they do.

I can tell you this; there are 61 injured people and 14 dead because of what we did, no matter what silly justifications you or they throw out. Even in ten of those people were insurgents, the rest didn't deserve to die. It's stupid sh*t like this that is going to lose this war for us, no matter how optimistic you are about it.

Your bias is no different than mine, McG, except for the fact that yours supports murdering innocents to 'teach them a lesson.'

Cycloptichorn
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:35 am
Because of what we did?!?!

The difference is that I see our troops as there to help the people of Iraq, you see tham as oppressive occupation forces.

I cry for each soldier that dies, you for each Iraqi militant. I have little respect for un-uniformed combatants using guerilla tactics putting civilians in harms way, you cheer for them.

That is the difference between us.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:38 am
Quote:
Monday, September 13, 2004

Bloody Sunday:
110 Dead in Iraq, 200 Wounded

The Iraqi Guerrilla War erupted into a spectacular set of conflagrations on Sunday, according to Reuters' Ibon Villalabeitia, leaving at least 110 dead and, according to AP, some 200 wounded.

Baghdad
At least 7 car bombs shook the Iraqi capital of Baghdad, and guerrillas pounded the Green Zone and the area around it with at least 12 mortar strikes. Mortar shells were also launched at Abu Ghuraib prison and driver tried to get a truckbomb through its gates, but was killed by Marines. The US military and Iraqi National Guards fought a running battle in Haifa Street. The Baghdad fighting took some 37 lives.

A particularly disturbing scenario unfolded at Haifa Street, a hotbed of opposition to US presence in Iraq. The mortar attacks on the Green Zone, which houses the interim Iraqi government and the US embassy, began before dawn. When they continued into the morning, AP says, US troops went in search of the guerrillas, supported by armored vehicles. Then on Haifa Street, guerrillas took out a Bradley fighting vehicle with a car bomb, then sprayed it with machine gun fire and tossed grenades at it. This operation sounds like a well-planned piece of strategy, whereby the US forces were lured to Haifa Street by the mortar fire precisely so that they could be car-bombed and attacked. Two Bradley crewmen were injured by the car bomb, and four in the subsequent attack.

Now you have a burning Bradley fighting vehicle sitting there in the street, and a crowd gathers, many of them boys, to jeer and dance. Some of the young men haul out a banner of the Tawhid and Jihad terrorist group and hang it from a barrel sticking out of the vehicle.

Alarmed that the Bradley would now be looted for weapons and ammunition (and, some reports say, "sensitive equipment"), US troops now call in helicopter gunships. They arrive, but claim they took small arms fire from the area around the burning Bradley.

Now the tragedy unfolds. The helicopters fire repeatedly on the crowd gathered around the Bradley, killing 13 persons and wounding 61. Although some of the killed or wounded may have been guerrillas, it seems obvious that others were just curious little boys from the neighborhood. I am told some of the television footage, which I did not see, suggests that the helicopters fired into a civilian crowd.

In the street were television cameramen and Mazen Tomeizi, a Palestinian producer for the al Arabiya satellite network, He was among those hit by the helicopter fire. Reuters explains:


"The Palestinian died soon afterwards. Reuters cameraman Seif Fouad, recording the scene, was also wounded in the blast.

"I looked at the sky and saw a helicopter at very low altitude," Fouad said. "Just moments later I saw a flash of light from the Apache. Then a strong explosion," he said.

"Mazen's blood was on my camera and face," Fouad said from his hospital bed. He said his friend screamed at him for help: "Seif, Seif! I'm going to die. I'm going to die." '



I don't know if the helicopters actually took fire from the crowd or not. It is plausible, but given that mostly civilians appear to have been struck, it wouldn't be strange if the US side tried to put the best possible face on the matter.

It would also be interesting to know what exactly was in that burning Bradley that was so important it was worth 13 lives and scores of wounded.

On a highway west of Baghdad, guerrillas detonated a car bomb, killing two policemen and a 12 year old boy.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:42 am
Where are the liberal tears for the two policemen and 12 year old boy killed by a car bomb by those "freedom fighters" in Iraq?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:48 am
There are no liberal tears for anyone. Where I see that a mistake was made in my name I am critical. Remember, we brought the war to them.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:49 am
Quote:
I cry for each soldier that dies, you for each Iraqi militant. I have little respect for un-uniformed combatants using guerilla tactics putting civilians in harms way, you cheer for them.

That is the difference between us.


This comment really highlights the difference between our views, but not in the way you think.

You see, I don't cheer for the insurgents, or the US military. I don't want to see ANY of them die. I cry every time ANYONE is hurt due to the actions/presence of our nation, whether it is troops defending us or an Iraqi doing what he thinks is right.

Quote:
Where are the liberal tears for the two policemen and 12 year old boy killed by a car bomb by those "freedom fighters" in Iraq?


They are right here. This whole war is stupid, and both sides keep ratcheting the violence up, it's really depressing...

You seem to think I want us to lose in Iraq. I don't. I just want us to leave.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 12:01 pm
But, we leave and more 12 year old boys die than need to. The insurgents will start a civil war and untold thousands could end up in more mass graves. Our prescence there, no matter how grotesque the left finds it saves lives.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 12:02 pm
No, it is alleged that it saves lives--it is not a given, even if it is a part of the conservative "now i lay me down to sleep . . . " mantra . . .
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 12:08 pm
well of course, you're right mcg. The more of them we kill now the fewer there will be to kill later. Freedom is a heavy burden on the dead. tis a far far better thing we do to kill under the guise of bringing them freedom than have them killed by their own. Kinda has a christian sound it don't you think? Perhaps we should export some more democracy /freedom, at least it will help with population control.
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