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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 12:40 pm
Breaking my own rule about domestic politics to bring you this message from Garrison Keillor; seek out the original, it's good, and there's more:

"The party of Lincoln and Liberty was transmogrified into the party of hairy-backed swamp developers and corporate shills, faith-based economists, fundamentalist bullies with Bibles, Christians of convenience, freelance racists, misanthropic frat boys, shrieking midgets of AM radio, tax cheats, nihilists in golf pants, brownshirts in pinstripes, sweatshop tycoons, hacks, fakirs, aggressive dorks, Lamborghini libertarians, people who believe Neil Armstrong's moonwalk was filmed in Roswell, New Mexico, little honkers out to diminish the rest of us, Newt's evil spawn and their Etch-A-Sketch president, a dull and rigid man suspicious of the free flow of information and of secular institutions, whose philosophy is a jumble of badly sutured body parts trying to walk. Republicans: The No.1 reason the rest of the world thinks we're deaf, dumb and dangerous."

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/979/

McT
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 12:43 pm
McT

That's priceless! God, I love Keillor.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 01:35 pm
Great piece, Thanks you for the link McT
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 02:41 pm
Quote:
Iraq success 'catastrophic': Bush
Roy Eccleston in New York
August 31, 2004
GEORGE W. Bush has admitted the US failed to plan for a speedy victory in Iraq, describing the sudden collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime as a "catastrophic success".

In a rare concession from the President, who dislikes admitting error, Mr Bush told Time magazine that his planners had not considered the prospect of a quick collapse.

"Had we to do it over again, we would look at the consequences of catastrophic success - being so successful, so fast, that an enemy that should have surrendered or been done in, escaped and lived to fight another day," he said.

Mr Bush sought to blame the prolonged war - in which 969 US troops have been killed so far - on an over-quick victory that meant the US ended up having to fight "a third more" of Hussein's Baathist supporters than military planners had expected.
what ?

so - if you'd planned ahead ...

Apparently, you can win too well. What?
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 05:01 pm
McTag wrote:
Ho ho. You want to run a plebiscite in Iraq, and you can't manage an election in Florida? That should be really representative.


Setanta wrote:
heeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee . . .
good one McT . . . okbye


I wasn't going to conduct the plebiscite, only propose it. I am planning on encouraging Bush to appoint McTag and Setanta to conduct the plebiscite. Cool
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 05:37 pm
McTag wrote:
Breaking my own rule about domestic politics to bring you this message from Garrison Keillor; seek out the original, it's good, and there's more ... McT


Garrison was describing Democrats and substituting Republican names. Shocked
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 05:58 pm
Iraqis ought to organize themselves into ethnic and/or regional states. These Iraqis states should delegate mutually agreed specific and limited powers to a central federal government, while individually retaining those powers they require to govern themselves. Each state must possess the power to limit the powers of the federal government by nullifying the exercise of those federal actions it thinks exceed the delegated federal powers.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 06:04 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
To say that Al Qaeda was 'in bed' with the Baathists is crazy.


Based on Colin Powell's February 2003 speech to the UN and Osama bin Laden's February 1998 FATWA, it would be CRAZY not to think al Qaeda was in bed with the Baathists.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 06:12 pm
blatham wrote:
Ican will go to his grave still searching the bottom of that barrel, it seems. Discourse with him on the issue is a bit like trying to push rain back up into the clouds.


Shucks! Nature with the help of the sun does that for us all, all the time: "push rain back up into the clouds." Discourse with those absent the ability to discuss the substance of issues as well as the form of issues is a lot like flying an airplane without a pilot. The airplane just sits there corroding until it becomes dust "blowing in the wind."
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 06:21 pm
Setanta wrote:
Somewhere in Texas a village idiot is missing


Not missing; just delayed. So when are you coming home?
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 06:24 pm
This administration has increased the tragedy of 9/11 into a debacle of world-wide proportions.
Here is a link that shows in detail what has been accomplished so far by the Bush administration:

http://bushflash.com/ma.html
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 06:25 pm
Quote:
Garrison was describing Democrats and substituting Republican names.


No, my friend, he was not. I have to tell you that my father, a union member- aircraft worker- member of the British/American Club, voted Republican in every election of his long life, who thought Roosevelt and Truman had gone way too far in looking out for men like him, who loved Eisenhower because he said he would go to Korea and did and who settled the steel strikes of 50's with fairness to the working man as well as the factory owner- my father wouldn't recognize this Republican Party of 2004, this party of Grover Norquist and Newt. This is not the party of Lincoln, not the party who championed the environmental protection Act under Nixon, not the party who argued for fiscal restraint in the name of sanity rather than out of pure self-rightness.

This party is not the one which in the 1950's had moderates like Rockefeller and Stevenson, two men the GOP wouldn't have a clue what to do with today.

What you have today is a different GOP than at any other time in it's long history, a party based on changing the Constitution of the US for it's own purposes whether it's anti-abortion or anti-gay marriage, a party that wants to change the tax structure so that the rich become super-rich and who cares what the hell happens to the working man, a party bent on controlling and shrinking government so that anyone out of power will have no recourse from his government. It is not, to my eyes, a proud moment for the party of Lincoln, but they seem oblivious, as if they never read a book in their over fed fragile lives.

Joe
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Aug, 2004 07:52 pm
joe

This is a continual surprise to me. Hardly any of the Republicans who post here, really just a single handful at most, even know who Grover Norquist is. Folks like georgeob, who are bright and educated and thoughtful for the most part, simply don't have a grasp of the modern party they are in support of. george fessed up the other day that he wasn't really certain what or who 'neoconservative' referred to, for example. finn has been keeping up with this stuff a bit more, but even he may not have bumped into Norquist's name other than from you or I or another here.

This is pretty dismal.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Aug, 2004 03:06 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
No, my friend, he was not. ...
This is not the party of Lincoln, not the party who championed the environmental protection Act under Nixon, not the party who argued for fiscal restraint in the name of sanity rather than out of pure self-rightness.


Joe,
I think we agree somewhat. However, I think the current Republican Party acts in closer harmony with the principles expressed in our founding documents, the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, than does the current Democratic Party. I know the network media and the national subscription media passionately disagree with me. However, in arriving at my judgment of the Republican versus Democratic Parties, I trust my own judgment of events and causes of those events more than I trust these media or the notions of my youth or even the notions of my parents.

While I judge the Republican Party to be in closer harmony with the principles expressed in our founding documents, I nonetheless judge the Republican Party to be too far removed from that degree of harmony I hunger to be established for my grandchildren. I think the number one function of our government is to secure our liberty. I think neither party does that well enough, but I also think the Republicans do a better job. In other words, I judge Republicans to be least worse. For example, I judge that Republicans honor the 1st and 5th Amendments to a greater degree than do the Democrats.

I'll be happy to debate this further with you. In the meantime I'll simply quote and selectively emphasize parts of pertinent statements in the Declaration and in the 1st and 5th Amendments.

Quote:
The Declaration of Independence (Adopted in Congress 4 July 1776)

...
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
...

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

...

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Aug, 2004 07:38 pm
This will be my last post on this thread regarding these internal matters of the US..... We ought to return to the subject of the thread, however:
Quote:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

You might want to mention this amendment the next time George pushs his faith-based enterprises as governmental entities....

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Please contact the 2,000 detainees imprisoned for weeks and months on US soil after 9/11 because they were Arab, Arab-looking, Palestinian or something close to that, and explain how they were somehow outside the purview of the US Constitution. Did someone declare a time of Public Danger or was Marital Law just assumed to be okie-dokie?

And if you think the first duty of government is to secure our liberty, you might ask the Bush Administration how it was after eight months on the job they could allow the severest blow to this nation's security to occur? I might be in the minority here, but I expect my President to be ready to do his job about eight MINUTES after he takes the oath of office. (Why is C. Rice still on the job?) And why has this administration dragged it's feet when it comes to making the chemical plants of this nation secure themselves against attack?
The present set of Republicans talk a very good game, but they aren't really in favor of all those amendments and articles, that's why their favorite remedies always includes a new constitutional amendment whether is against flag-burning, or against abortion or against gay marriage or for a balanced budget (oops, sorry, that one has dropped out of sight and mind since Reagan)

Imagine a party with so little regard for our founding fathers that they feel a re-write is necessary every few years. (the neo-cons were the ones pushing for a Constitutional Convention a few years ago, did you think they just wanted to have a cup of tea?) Nah, this bunch is not aligned with Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton and Madison, they are not even aligned with Buckley, Buccanan or Arnold (Schwartzeneggar that is).

I know you're hoping for good things for your grandchildren, you'd better hope that Rove and Norquist fail to bring their strange little world view into reality. Think. Do you really want these guys to pick the next three Supreme Court Justices? What kind of Constitution do you think will remain after thirty or forty years of neo-con opinions?

Joe
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Aug, 2004 11:26 pm
There are quite a few threads going now on the Rep vs Dem theme, which is a pity since they seem to have syphoned off some of our more thoughtful contributors on this one.

As an outsider, and looking at the Republican convention on the TV, I am always struck by the spectacle of American politics at work, how like showbusiness it is.

These people, at least in the way they present their message to camera, seem to have little to do with the real world, little grasp of reality.

Meanwhile, honest, mostly legal, demonstration outside on the streets of the city is shown as "the enemy at the gates".

Whoever controls these images, sets the agenda.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 01:29 am
McTag wrote:
As an outsider, and looking at the Republican convention on the TV, I am always struck by the spectacle of American politics at work, how like showbusiness it is.
Considering your politics; you should be grateful for this. Someone like Tony Blair would win in a landslide. With the tremendous amount of ABB thought out there, Bush still has 50/50. If he could and did field question's like Blair, forget it. Idea
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Thok
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 01:29 am
Ahmed Chalabi in danger:

Quote:
Unidentified gunmen opened fire on a convoy carrying former Iraqi Governing Council member Ahmad Chalabi in an apparent assassination attempt that wounded two of his bodyguards, Chalabi's spokesman said.

Chalabi's convoy was attacked in southern Baghdad as he returned from the holy city of Najaf, said spokesman Mithal al-Alusi.

Chalabi escaped unharmed but two of his bodyguards were wounded, one of them seriously, al-Alusi said.


Link
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 04:57 am
Quote:
There are a lot of angry spies at Langley, and one of the angriest is Mike Scheuer, a senior intelligence officer who led the Bin Laden station for four years. While some of his colleagues have vented their frustrations through leaks, Scheuer has done what no serving American intelligence official has ever done - published a book-length attack on the establishment.

His book, Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror, is a fire-breathing denunciation of US counter-terrorism policy. In it, Scheuer addresses the missed opportunities of the Clinton era, but he reserves his most withering attack for the Bush administration's war in Iraq.

He describes the invasion as "an avaricious, premeditated, unprovoked war against a foe who posed no immediate threat but whose defeat did offer economic advantage". He even goes so far as to call on America's generals to resign rather than execute orders that "they know [...] will produce more, not less, danger to their nation". Bin Laden, he believes, is not a lonely maverick, but draws support from much of the Islamic world, which resents the US not for what it is, but for what it does - supporting Israel almost uncritically, propping up corrupt regimes in the Arab world, garrisoning troops on the Saudi peninsula near Islam's most holy sites to safeguard access to cheap oil.

"America ought to do what's in America's interests, and those interests are not served by being dependent on oil in the Middle East and by giving an open hand to the Israelis," Scheuer argues. "If we're less open-handed to Israel over time we can cut down Bin Laden's ability to grow. Right now he has unlimited potential for growing." What makes these comments the more challenging to the Bush administration is that they come from a self-described conservative and instinctive Republican voter.
more
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 05:27 am
Quote:

OPINION

Wednesday, September 1, 2004

No way out of no-win situation

By PAUL KRUGMAN
SYNDICATED COLUMNIST

"Everyone wants to go to Baghdad; real men want to go to Tehran." That was the attitude in Washington two years ago, when Ahmad Chalabi was assuring everyone that Iraqis would greet us with flowers. More recently, some of us had a different slogan: "Everyone worries about Najaf; people who are really paying attention worry about Ramadi."

Ever since the uprising in April, the Iraqi town of Fallujah has in effect been a small, nasty Islamic republic. But what about the rest of the Sunni triangle?

Last month a Knight Ridder report suggested that U.S. forces effectively were ceding many urban areas to insurgents. Sunday, The New York Times confirmed that while the world's attention was focused on Najaf, western Iraq fell firmly under rebel control. Representatives of the U.S.-installed government have been intimidated, assassinated or executed.

Other towns, such as Samarra, also have fallen to insurgents. Attacks on oil pipelines are proliferating. And we're still playing whack-a-mole with Muqtada al-Sadr: His Mahdi Army has left Najaf, but remains in control of Sadr City, with its 2 million people. The Christian Science Monitor reports that "interviews in Baghdad suggest that Sadr is walking away from the standoff with a widening base and supporters who are more militant than before."

For a long time, anyone suggesting analogies with Vietnam was ridiculed. But Iraq optimists have, by my count, already declared victory three times. First there was "Mission Accomplished" -- followed by an escalating insurgency. Then there was the capture of Saddam -- followed by April's bloody uprising. Finally there was the furtive transfer of formal sovereignty to Ayad Allawi, with implausible claims that this showed progress -- a fantasy exploded by the guns of August.

Now, serious security analysts have begun to admit that the goal of a democratic, pro-American Iraq has receded out of reach. Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies -- no peacenik -- writes that "there is little prospect for peace and stability in Iraq before late 2005, if then."

Cordesman still thinks (or thought a few weeks ago) that the odds of success in Iraq are "at least even," but by success he means the creation of a government that "is almost certain to be more inclusive of Baath, hard-line religious and divisive ethnic/sectarian movements than the West would like." And just in case, he urges the United States to prepare "a contingency plan for failure."

Fred Kaplan of Slate is even more pessimistic. "This is a terribly grim thing to say," he wrote recently, "but there might be no solution to the problem of Iraq" -- no way to produce "a stable, secure, let alone democratic regime. And there's no way we can just pull out without plunging the country, the region and possibly beyond into still deeper disaster." Deeper disaster? Yes: People who worried about Ramadi are now worrying about Pakistan.

So what's the answer? Here's one thought: Much of U.S. policy in Iraq -- delaying elections, trying to come up with a formula that blocks simple majority rule, trying to install first Chalabi, then Allawi, as strongman -- can be seen as a persistent effort to avoid giving Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani his natural dominant role. But recent events in Najaf have demonstrated both the cleric's awesome influence and the limits of U.S. power. Isn't it time to realize that we could do a lot worse than Sistani and give him pretty much whatever he wants?

Here's another thought. President Bush says the troubles in Iraq are the result of unanticipated "catastrophic success." But that catastrophe was predicted by many experts. Cordesman says their warnings were ignored because we have "the weakest and most ineffective National Security Council in postwar American history," giving control to "a small group of neoconservative ideologues" who "shaped a war without any realistic understanding or plans for shaping a peace."

Bush, who took a "winning the war on terror" bus tour just a few months ago, conceded Monday that "I don't think you can win" the war on terror. But he hasn't changed the national security adviser, nor has he dismissed even one of the ideologues who got us into this no-win situation. Rather than concede that he made mistakes, he's sticking with people who will, if they get the chance, lead us into two, three, many quagmires.
Paul Krugman is a columnist for the New York Times. Copyright 2004 New York Times News Service. E-mail: [email protected]


SOURCE
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