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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 01:10 pm
blatham, yea both those that wish to hold to the phrase, "found no evidence" (or words to similar) like a dog with a bone.

It is simply impossible to say almost anything like that with one precent certainty and those that favor the Iraq/syria/weapons theory use that to full advantage.

Where can you go after that?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 01:41 pm
Quote:
Italy: Opposition Slams Iraq Killing Findings

By Paul Holmes

ROME (Reuters) - An angry opposition branded an investigation reported to have cleared U.S. soldiers of blame for killing an Italian agent in Iraq after a hostage rescue an insult to Italy on Tuesday.


In a brief statement to the Chamber of Deputies, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi rejected opposition calls to discuss the case in parliament, saying news stories about the purported findings of the joint probe were leaks. He insisted the investigation was not over.


"The government ... will only speak about this when all the results of the enquiry are finalized," Berlusconi said, adding his government was in contact with the U.S. administration.


Military intelligence officer Nicola Calipari died when troops at a U.S. checkpoint opened fire late on March 4 as he was driving to Baghdad airport with Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena after obtaining her release from insurgent kidnappers.


A U.S. Army official, briefing reporters in Washington on the preliminary results of the investigation, said on Monday the soldiers had followed their rules of engagement and should therefore face no charges of dereliction of duty.


The official said Italy, a close U.S. ally in Iraq, had balked at endorsing the report. Rome disagreed with its findings on the car's speed and whether the Italians kept U.S. troops informed.


In Washington, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the report was not complete.


"It's an investigation. It was done together, intimately. And I think that we'll just have to wait and see what they come out with," Rumsfeld told a news conference at the Pentagon.


U.S. Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the military Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the draft report was still in hands of U.S. Army Gen. George Casey, commander of multinational forces in Iraq.


Asked whether there might be two separate reports, Myers said: "Don't know. We'll have to wait and see."


The case comes at an awkward time for Berlusconi, who faces confidence votes in the Chamber of Deputies on Wednesday and the Senate on Thursday on a new cabinet after a coalition mutiny over a heavy regional election defeat in early April.


His decision to send 3,000 Italian troops to Iraq was deeply unpopular at home and, with a general election due in 2006, he has said they will start pulling out from September.


NO ACCIDENT, SAYS SGRENA


Opposition parties united in condemning the reported findings as an attempt to whitewash the case.


"A unilateral conclusion absolving anyone of blame that the Italian side does not accept is an insult to the truth and to the memory of Nicola Calipari and a serious act of arrogance toward Italy," one opposition lawmaker, Giuseppe Fioroni of the center-left Margherita party, said in a statement.


Sgrena, a veteran war correspondent for the communist newspaper Il Manifesto who was wounded in the shooting, called the findings "a slap in the face" and again alleged that Calipari had been killed deliberately.


"Nicola Calipari was murdered. Don't use the word 'accident'. Now we want the truth and we want to know who gave the order to open fire on that car," she told a news conference.





The report was the latest in a series of U.S. military investigations into the killing of civilians by American forces in Iraq to have found no wrongdoing.

The New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) called for "a thorough and credible investigation" and said Italian-U.S. disagreement on the probe was troubling.

"The failure to reach an agreement would be a missed opportunity to address the serious issue of safety for civilians -- including members of the press -- at U.S. checkpoints," CPJ Executive Director Ann Cooper said in a statement.

Source
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 02:41 pm
Hmmm... It looks like its the word of a journalist vs. the United States Army board of investigation... Whomever shall we believe? Rolling Eyes

Her words...
Quote:
The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell. Nicola Calipari sat next to me. The driver twice called the embassy and in Italy that we were heading towards the airport that I knew was heavily patrolled by U.S. troops. They told me that we were less than a kilometer away...when...I only remember fire. At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us, shutting up forever the cheerful voices of a few minutes earlier.

The driver started yelling that we were Italians. "We are Italians, we are Italians." Nicola Calipari threw himself on me to protect me and immediately, I repeat, immediately I heard his last breath as he was dying on me. I must have felt physical pain. I didn't know why. But then I realized my mind went immediately to the things the captors had told me. They declared that they were committed to the fullest to freeing me but I had to be careful, "the Americans don't want you to go back." Then when they had told me I considered those words superfluous and ideological. At that moment they risked acquiring the flavor of the bitterest of truths, at this time I cannot tell you the rest.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 02:46 pm
Lessee now....

Who has the most to lose by telling the truth, and who has the least to gain by lying?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 02:56 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Hmmm... It looks like its the word of a journalist vs. the United States Army board of investigation...


Oh, the Italian officer and the Italian diplomat are journalists, too or don't count as well as the the not killed secret agent?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 03:27 pm
If it is true that the Italians failed to inform U.S. forces in advance of what they were doing that night, then I believe the inverstigation can prove little, except for the obvious and foolish recklessness of the Italian personnel involved in the rescue operation.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 03:53 pm
Quote:
Hmmm... It looks like its the word of a journalist vs. the United States Army board of investigation... Whomever shall we believe?


Are you kidding?

You know deep down that the Army will say whatever it wants. Noone is going to contradict them from the US side (why would we make an international incident out of disagreeing with our own army report?) and noone outside the US has the power to do sh!t about it.

Don't forget that this is the same bunch who keeps protecting the guys at the top from Torture investigations. They lie as often as they speak.

Cycloptichorn
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 05:38 pm
I know deep down that the guys manning that check-point that night would not have shot at that car without reason. I think deep down, you do too.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 05:47 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Hmmm... It looks like its the word of a journalist vs. the United States Army board of investigation... Whomever shall we believe?


Are you kidding?

You know deep down that the Army will say whatever it wants. Noone is going to contradict them from the US side (why would we make an international incident out of disagreeing with our own army report?) and noone outside the US has the power to do sh!t about it.

Don't forget that this is the same bunch who keeps protecting the guys at the top from Torture investigations. They lie as often as they speak.

Cycloptichorn


Have you been keeping up with how many of these guys are getting out of being convicted of anything connected with the prison abuses? Disgusting.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 05:49 pm
Hmmm... I've been too busy reading about those being convicted to notice the few that are not.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 05:58 pm
Well to balance right don't you try these links?

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=632719

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=436372005

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1674661,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4475657.stm

Plenty more where they come from.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 06:11 pm
Did you attend the trials?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 07:20 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
Well of course, Iraq permitted AQ sanctuary and didn't attempt to extradite their leadership there. Powell said so himself!

Quote:
REFERENCES:

A. 9-11 Commission, 9/20/2004
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

B. Secretary of State, Colin Powell’s speech to UN, “sinister nexus,” 2/5/2003:
NEW LINK:
http://www.state.gov/secretary/former/powell/remarks/2003/17300.htm

C. “The Encyclopedia Britannica, Iraq”
www.britannica.com

D. "American Soldier," by General Tommy Franks, 7/1/2004
“10” Regan Books, An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers

E. Charles Duelfer's Report, 30 September 2004
www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/Comp_Report_Key_Findings.pdf

F. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org


In addition to reference B, references A, D, and F stated that Iraq permitted AQ sanctuary (i.e., al Qaeda sanctuary based in northeastern Iraq). Reference B reported that Iraq did not attempt to extradite the leadership of the AQ, even though the US twice before this speech was given, requested that Iraq extradite the leadership of AQ bases. After Powell's speech, Saddam's regime did not deny that the US requested extradition of the leadership of the AQ, while it did deny other accusations Powell made. Furthermore, even after Powell made this accusation on 2/5/2001 (43 days before the US invaded Iraq on 3/20/2001), the Saddam regime still did not attempt to extradite the AQ leadership and still did not offer any explanation why it did not make that attempt.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 07:36 pm

One more great by-product of de-tyrantizing Iraq.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 07:37 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Did you attend the trials?


No, are you saying a person can't ever get information unless the person is there in person? What do we need the press for?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 07:46 pm
McTag wrote:
Lessee now....

Who has the most to lose by telling the truth, and who has the least to gain by lying?


Who has the most to gain by lying?

Who has the least to lose by telling the truth?

Better yet ask:

What did those soldiers who shot the car think they had to gain?

What did those soldiers who shot the car think they had to lose?

I bet they feared the car they shot was another suicide bomb car! So for the soldiers it was gain or lose their lives, don't you think?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 08:41 pm
revel wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Did you attend the trials?

No, are you saying a person can't ever get information unless the person is there in person? What do we need the press for?


Georgeob will of course post a response for himself.

I wish to give you some advice.

The job of the press is to tell us what actually happens.

The job of the press is not to tell us what they think we should think about what actually happens.

I think the contemporary press clearly does a poor job of the former and a good job of the latter.

Under these circumstances, don't you think you ought to decide for yourself whether or not what the press writes over time makes sense over time?

For example, does it make sense that the US conspired to murder that reporter? If you imagine that it does, can you also imagine it really worth the risk to the US to deliberately conspire to murder a reporter when the risk of discovery of such an awful thing is so highly likely?

Isn't it more likely that the soldiers fired on the reporter's car, because they perceived it to be a threat to their safety and/or to the safety of those down the road (e.g., at the airport)?

Don't you think that the soldiers believed the safest response for them was to shoot first and ask questions later?

Don't you think it unusual that neither the occupants of that car, nor one of their associates, declared in advance to the US military their intention to drive down that road, when other Italian drivers and passengers that same night made such a declaration in advance and were not shot at driving down the same road?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 09:10 pm
Ican writes
Quote:
For example, does it make sense that the US conspired to murder that reporter?


The one thing those who seem to wish to believe the worst about the soldiers seem to keep forgetting is that the soldiers had very powerful weapons and lots of ammunition, If they had conspired to murder anyone in that car, everbody in that car would be dead and we wouldn't even be having this discussion because there would be no 'witnesses'.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 09:30 pm
Your reference A perused the same fallacious "intelligence" that your reference B did, ican.

Your reference F merely summarizes your reference A.

Your reference B has been discredited, and been shown to be at best a display of gross incompetence, and at worst an example of willful, instigative demagoguery.

Your reference D confirmed the existence of Ansar al Islam camps in northern Iraq. It does not confirm the contention that Iraq harbored those camps. Those camps were beyond the control of Iraq, and under the control of the Kurds in that area.

The rest of your contention about extradition of "AQ leadership" and or the lack thereof is merely speculation on your part, ican.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 11:16 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Ican writes
Quote:
For example, does it make sense that the US conspired to murder that reporter?


The one thing those who seem to wish to believe the worst about the soldiers seem to keep forgetting is that the soldiers had very powerful weapons and lots of ammunition, If they had conspired to murder anyone in that car, everbody in that car would be dead and we wouldn't even be having this discussion because there would be no 'witnesses'.


We're not talking about a conspiracy to murder, are we? We're talking about a car which had already passed two checkpoints, whose occupants had informed the authorities about their presence and their intentions, being shot up.
0 Replies
 
 

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