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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 09:41 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Isn't it interesting that you have more people on a2k that disagrees with you than those that agree.
Laughing
Wonderful! Now we have an a2k poll too!
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 09:44 pm
Cool. Let's do an "I don't agree with <random person> at all" poll!
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 11:46 pm
But....but....some of you I do agree with. Some more than others. Not anybody all the time. A few most of the time. And some I worry a whole lot if I find myself in agreement with them. Smile
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 11:49 pm
I agree with you, Fox!
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 11:51 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Oh, and Germany didn't fire the first shot at the USA in WWII either. But we sort of thought it needed to be dealt with anyway, just like Iraq needed to be dealt with. Smile


This is wrong. Germany declared war on the USA, and sank some shipping.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 12:12 am
McTag wrote:

Germany declared war on the USA


Germany declared war on the United States on December, 11th

McTag wrote:

sank some shipping.


USS Reuben James, it was lost with 115 men on October, 31st.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 12:29 am
Fox shoots of his mouth with
"Oh, and Germany didn't fire the first shot at the USA in WWII either. But we sort of thought it needed to be dealt with anyway, just like Iraq needed to be dealt with."

Okay, Fox, show us your source for this rediculous statement.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:26 am
Dec 7, 1941 - Japan bombed Pearl Harbor
Dec 8, 1941 - USA declared war on Japan
Dec 11, 1941 - Germany, ally of Japan, declared war on the USA
The same day, Roosevelt went to Congress and war was declared on Germany.
Jan 1, 1942 - Declaration of the UN signed by 26 allied nations against Germany and Japan.

At the time the USA declared war on Germany, no official shots had been fired.

The Reuben James incident was largely ignored by most of the country and was not considered part of the war. The President and just about everybody wanted no part of the war at the time.

Woodie Guthrie's ballad re that event:

Have you heard of the ship called the good Reuben James?
Filled with hard fighting men, of honor and of fame
She flew the stars and stripes of the land of the free
Now she's in her grave at the bottom of the sea
chorus:
Tell me what were their names,
tell me what were there names?
did you have a friend on the good reuben james?

It was there in the dark of that uncertain night
that we watched for the u-boat, and waited for the fight
the fire and the rock and the great explosions roar
and they laid the reuben james on the cold ocean floor
chorus
One hundred men went down to their dark watery grave
when that good ship went down only forty four were savrd
twas the last day of october that they saved forty four
from the cold icy water and the cold icy shore
chorus
Now there are lights in our country so bright
and in the farms and the villages their telling of the fight
Now our mighty battleships steam the bounding main
and remember the name of the good reuben james
chorus
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:51 am
"...no official shots had been fired. "

Thats a great line Foxfyre, applicable many situations as an excuse of last resort.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 01:59 am
Now for another front page headline from your favourite paper the Indy

'DEAD WRONG'

"A bipartisan US commission has delivered a devastating critique of the intelligence assessment of Iraq's pre-war weapons of mass destruction. It also implied that the country's spy agencies know "disturbingly little" about Iran and North Korea.

The intelligence community was "dead wrong" in "almost all of its judgements" about Saddam Hussein's presumed chemical biological and nuclear weapons programmes declared the panel, which was set up by President George Bush in February last year."
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 02:25 am
When the soldier signs up for duty he comes under an obligation to obey orders. But he or she has a right to expect those orders to be decent and above all lawful.

As every day goes by the invasion and occupation of Iraq can be seen more clearly for what it was: the biggest smash and grab raid in history.

Among all the other iniquities that entailed, the betrayal of trust of the ordinary soldier is probably the most corrosive and damaging.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 06:35 am
So far our "ordinary soldiers" are not acting as though they belive their trust has been betrayed. On the contrary, despite unprecedented (since WWII) high deployment requirements, morale and unit cohesion has stayed up remarkably well. Perhaps some here believe they know these things better than such ordinary folk. The fact is the "ordinary soldiers" see, think, and reason quite well for themselves, even without the assistance of those who think - from afar - that they know better.

Steve you persist in the "land grab", "peak oil" and other like nonsense even as the "evidence" for it vanishes. A hallmark of an intelligent, thinking person is that he observes and recognizes new facts and adjusts his judgements accordingly.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 06:45 am
Thanks to Bush doctrine, Middle East trees convert carbon dioxide to oxygen

Lebanese protests against Syrian influence aren't the only revolutionary movements taking place in the Middle East. Startling anecdotal evidence suggests that the country's famed cedars, like vast numbers of other trees in the region, are actually taking the carbon dioxide exhaled by humans and emitted by internal combustion engines, and converting it to oxygen to be inhaled by grateful millions.

As with all other positive developments in the Middle East -- elections in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan; Libya's relinquishing of WMDs; stymied proliferation of nuclear weapons (except for Pakistan and Israel); and of course, Lebanon's laudable "shaking off" (in Arabic, intifada) of Syrian domination -- credit must be given to the Bush doctrine of pre-emptive war.

Thus inspired by the toppling of Saddam's regime, Middle Eastern trees have now also finally risen up against the oppressive forces of carbon dioxide, overthrowing them in favor of oxygen in an irrepressible photosynthetic orgy of freedom.

(He doesn't hear Muhammad Q. Islam complaining either, so georgeob1 is only going to say this once: You're welcome.)

george must also say to every liberal peacenik hand-wringer who ever questioned the Iraq war policy -- the vast numbers of U.S. soldiers and Iraqi civilians killed and maimed; the damage to America's global reputation; the complete absence of WMDs; abuse and torture at Abu Ghraib; the "bring it on" attitude of the Bush administration; and "all options on the table" statements directed toward Iran -- each and every one of you now owes every oxygen-breathing man, woman, and child in the entire region an apology. He and all the neo-con hawks and their plan for world domination -- oops, democratization -- were right. You were wrong. While you're eating crow, I suggest a balsamic and sage marinade.

And if any critics try to suggest that nonviolent protests in Lebanon demonstrate how regimes can be toppled without war, or that Saudi Arabian and Egyptian "elections" are insubstantial window-dressing, or that the Palestinian elections were merely the result of Arafat's death, or that Iraq remains a quagmire where a majority of the population resents U.S. occupation, well...they're a bunch of stupid-heads who must hate oxygen.

And freedom.

(Happy April Fool's, george.)
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 06:55 am
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17211-2005Mar31.html

Weapons of Mass Destruction
Doubts on Weapons Were Dismissed

By Dafna Linzer and Barton Gellman
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, April 1, 2005; Page A01

As former secretary of state Colin L. Powell worked into the night in a New York hotel room, on the eve of his February 2003 presentation to the U.N. Security Council, CIA officers sent urgent e-mails and cables describing grave doubts about a key charge he was going to make.

On the telephone that night, a senior intelligence officer warned then-CIA Director George J. Tenet that he lacked confidence in the principal source of the assertion that Saddam Hussein's scientists were developing deadly agents in mobile laboratories.

"Mr. Tenet replied with words to the effect of 'yeah, yeah' and that he was 'exhausted,' " according to testimony quoted yesterday in the report of President Bush's commission on the intelligence failures leading up to his decision to invade Iraq in March 2003.

Tenet told the commission he did not recall that part of the conversation. He relayed no such concerns to Powell, who made the germ- warfare charge a centerpiece of his presentation the next day.

That was one among many examples -- cited over 692 pages in the report -- of fruitless dissent on the accuracy of claims against Iraq. Up until the days before U.S. troops entered Iraqi territory that March, the intelligence community was inundated with evidence that undermined virtually all charges it had made against Iraq, the report said.

In scores of additional cases involving the country's alleged nuclear and chemical programs and its delivery systems, the commission described a kind of echo chamber in which plausible hypotheses hardened into firm assertions of fact, eventually becoming immune to evidence.

Leading analysts accepted at face value data supporting the existence of illegal weapons, the commission said, and discounted counter-evidence as skillful Iraqi deception.

The commission's anatomy of failure on Iraq's alleged nuclear weapons program is a case in point. It begins in early 2001, as Bush took office, when the CIA got its first report that Iraq was trying to buy black-market aluminum tubes. The agency swiftly concluded, after intercepting a sample in April of that year, that Iraq intended the tubes to be used in centrifuges that would enrich uranium for the core of a nuclear weapon.

The CIA's Weapons Intelligence, Nonproliferation and Arms Control Center (WINPAC) never budged from that analysis, the report said. In the following 18 months, WINPAC analysts won a fierce bureaucratic battle against dissenters from other agencies who said the tubes -- roughly three feet long and three inches in diameter -- were the wrong size, shape and material for plausible use in centrifuges.

The tubes became the principal evidence for a "key judgment" in the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate, which said Iraq had "reconstituted" a nuclear weapons program and could build a bomb before the end of the decade.

To support its assertions about the aluminum tubes, the CIA made a series of arguments that the nation's leading centrifuge physicists described repeatedly as technically garbled, improbable or unambiguously false, the report said.

One WINPAC analyst -- identified previously in The Washington Post as "Joe," with his surname withheld at the CIA's request -- responded by bypassing the Energy Department's Oak Ridge National Laboratory, the nation's only major center of expertise on nuclear centrifuge technology. Joe commissioned a contractor to conduct tests of his own design, then rejected the contractor's results when they did not meet his expectations.

Yesterday's report said the CIA also created a panel of experts to rival the Oak Ridge team. Those experts concluded, based on "a stack of documents provided by the CIA," that the tubes were meant for centrifuges.

The CIA refused to convene the government's authoritative forum for resolving technical disputes about nuclear weapons. The Joint Atomic Energy Intelligence Committee proposed twice, in the spring and summer of 2002, to assess all the evidence. The CIA's front office replied, according to yesterday's report, "that CIA was not ready to discuss its position."

The same summer, then-deputy CIA director John E. McLaughlin brought talking points to a meeting of Bush's national security cabinet, asserting that the tubes were "destined for a gas centrifuge program" and that their procurement showed "clear intent to produce weapons-capable fissile material." The next month, the CIA sent policymakers a report calling the tubes "compelling evidence that Iraq has renewed its gas centrifuge uranium enrichment program."

Within weeks of the tubes' interception, the report said, Energy Department experts told the CIA that they matched precisely the materials and dimensions of an Italian-made rocket called the Medusa, a standard NATO munition. They also pointed out that Iraq was building copies of the Medusa and declared a stockpile of identical tubes to U.N. inspectors in 1996.

The CIA asked the Army's National Ground Intelligence Center for an analysis of the tubes but withheld the information about the Medusa and the 1996 discovery. The Army analysts said, among other things, that no known rocket used that particular aluminum alloy -- disregarding not only the Medusa but also the U.S.-built Hydra rocket.

"The intercepted tubes were not only well-suited, but were in fact a precise fit, for Iraq's conventional rockets," the commission said yesterday, but "certain agencies were more wedded to the analytical position that the tubes were destined for a nuclear program."

Even the Energy Department did not hold fast to its analysis. Although it dissented on the tubes, it went along with the CIA and Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) in concluding that Iraq had resumed a nuclear weapons program, based on arguments the commission called insubstantial and illogical. One analyst told the commission, "DOE didn't want to come out before the war and say [Iraq] wasn't reconstituting."

Another key piece of evidence came from an Iraqi defector who told the DIA that Iraq had built a secret new nuclear facility. U.S. intelligence could not verify the report, or locate the alleged facility, which did not exist. After the war, the CIA concluded that the defector was "directed" in his claims by the Iraqi National Congress, led by then-exile Ahmed Chalabi. To this day, however, the DIA has not withdrawn the defector's reporting from national databases, the report showed.

Nor has the DIA withdrawn assessments provided by defectors such as "Curveball," whose tales of mobile laboratories in which scientists cooked up biological weapons were pure fabrication, according to the commission.

Concerns over Curveball had been floating around the CIA for more than three years by the time Powell shared his claims with the world. No CIA officer even met Curveball before the war, although on the night before Powell's presentation, a defense intelligence officer wrote an e-mail to colleagues noting that in his meeting with the defector, Curveball appeared "hung over" and unreliable.

"These views were expressed to CIA leadership," the commissioners wrote, including to McLaughlin and his assistant. But they were also watered down as they moved up within the intelligence community, and were never shared with outsiders. "We found no evidence that the doubts were conveyed by CIA leadership to policymakers in general -- or Secretary Powell in particular."

In fact, the more Curveball's credibility came into question, the more his allegations were used to bolster the case for war, the report said.

Even after Powell's now-famous presentation in the chamber of the U.N. Security Council, the CIA tried to find out more information about Curveball, whose stories had been relayed to the Pentagon through German intelligence. Five days after Powell's presentation, the CIA sent an e-mail to a senior defense intelligence official seeking more information about the defector.

What followed, in the commission's account, highlights the terrible working relationships within the intelligence community, the lack of interest in getting the truth about Curveball and the ease with which the DIA discarded concerns about the case against Iraq.

The defense intelligence division chief who received the CIA e-mail forwarded it to a subordinate in an e-mail that was inadvertently copied back to the sender. In it, the division chief expressed shock at the CIA's suggestion that Curveball might be unreliable. The "CIA is up to their old tricks" and did not "have a clue" about how the source had been handled, the division chief wrote in excerpts quoted in the commission's report.

Only in March 2004, one year after the invasion of Iraq, did the CIA confront Curveball over his prewar claims.




© 2005 The Washington Post Company
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 07:03 am
This seems to me like a cover up and that Tenet was only doing as he was pressured, probably by all those visits by Cheney during this time. I also think that the Bush administration is simply too smart to leave any tracks. I am aware that I have no way to prove my theory, nonetheless I believe it wholeheartedly.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 07:07 am
georgeob1 wrote:
So far our "ordinary soldiers" are not acting as though they belive their trust has been betrayed. On the contrary, despite unprecedented (since WWII) high deployment requirements, morale and unit cohesion has stayed up remarkably well.


And black is white, and night is day.

We seem to be reading different sources. Perhaps I suffer from not watching Fox TV.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 07:17 am
McTag,

No, you suffer from an excess of credulity with respect to things that reinforce your prejudices and a reflexive skepticim about things that threaten them. Fox news would neither help nor hurt that.

On what basis do you claim extensive knowledge of the current state of our armed forces, or the ability to make reliable judgements about such matters? I know what is the basis for my assessment - it is quite extensive, but I don't know yours.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 07:45 am
George said "Steve you persist in the "land grab", "peak oil" and other like nonsense even as the "evidence" for it vanishes."

I wish it was nonsense. The fact is George all the other stated reasons for the invasion have run out of the "this makes sense" factor. Where do we begin?

Saddam Hussein and 9/11
Saddam and al Qaida
saddam and wmd
Liberating the Iraqi people?
Bringing democracy?
Building a new model Iraq?
Fighting terrorism?
Hunting down bin Laden?
Safeguarding Israel?


Again I really wish Peak Oil was nonsense, because if its happening or just about to, the consequences for us all could be catastrophic. What I find quite frightening is not that oil is in the mix of the real reasons for invading Iraq, but that such actions might demonstrate that Peak Oil is real and is being taken very seriously.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 08:52 am
Revel,

That's a hell of an article. This is exactly the kind of thing I've been talking about re: Bushco. Knowingly lying to the public about the intel.

BM and more discussion, don't let others get it off track - this is the most important post I've seen on this thread in weeks.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2005 09:04 am
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17353-2005Mar31.html

Quote:

Fooling Ourselves

By David Ignatius
Friday, April 1, 2005; Page A27

To the literature on deception in war we must now add a new chapter -- on self-deception. For that is the ultimate explanation for how the American military went to war in Iraq in March 2003 equipped with gas masks and chemical-biological suits to protect itself against weapons of mass destruction that turned out not to exist.

The presidential commission that released its report yesterday was scathing about this intelligence failure. It described an intelligence community that is "headstrong," "too slow" and "a 'Community' in name only." It dissected intelligence reports that were "riddled with errors," "disastrously one-sided" and that relied on information from "sources who were telling lies." The commission's conclusion was simply worded but devastating: "The harm done to American credibility by our all too public intelligence failings in Iraq will take years to undo."

The report blamed everyone involved in the WMD fiasco except the Bush administration officials who actually made the decision to go to war. "[W]e were not authorized to investigate how policymakers used the intelligence assessments they received," the commission explained. That omission is unfortunate. If there's one thing that has become clear in the history of U.S. intelligence over the past 50 years it is that the CIA is not in fact a rogue agency. It is shaped, often to a fault, by the priorities and pet projects of whoever is in the White House. Intelligence supports policy, but it doesn't make it.

The Bush administration must examine its role in the process of self-deception over Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, above all to guard against future mistakes. It wasn't Saddam Hussein who deceived American leaders; he claimed repeatedly that he had no WMD. It was America that deceived itself. The commission said it didn't find evidence of any direct political pressure on analysts to skew their judgments. But it hints at the real-life Washington atmosphere in which the disastrous mistakes were made: "t is hard to deny the conclusion that intelligence analysts worked in an environment that did not encourage skepticism about the conventional wisdom."

As the commission tells the story, the self-deception began with the intelligence community's failures before the 1991 Persian Gulf War in assessing how far Iraq had advanced in its nuclear and chemical weapons programs. "Shaken by the magnitude of their errors," the report notes, "intelligence analysts were determined not to fall victim again to the same mistake." So they made a new one, which was to assume the worst possible case about Iraq's WMD. They wove together suppositions, preconceptions and shreds of real information. Incredibly, in the egregious case of a defector to Germany code-named "Curveball," who had provided fabricated "intelligence" about Iraqi mobile biological labs, the CIA passed the information to policymakers without ever confirming it independently.

When it came time to write the decisive National Intelligence Estimate on Iraqi WMD in October 2002, the analysts took their assumptions "and swathed them in the mystique of intelligence, providing secret information that seemed to support them but was in fact nearly worthless, if not misleading." Philosophers describe this process as "reification" -- turning soft information into what appears to be hard fact.

The intelligence community is bruised and demoralized these days, and not without reason. Its mistakes have spawned a kind of reform-mania, and a frantic drive to rejigger the bureaucratic boxes under a new director of national intelligence (DNI), in the hope that this can improve collection and analysis. So far, alas, the restructuring has mainly produced confusion. One of the valuable services of the WMD report is that it offers a clear plan for the new DNI-designate, John Negroponte, in how to put the pieces together coherently.

The commission's most important recommendation is to create at the CIA a Human Intelligence Directorate (with the felicitous acronym "HID"). The present Directorate of Operations would be subordinate to the HID, which would have an "Innovation Center" to study unconventional ways to gather information beyond the DO's traditional reliance on case officers in U.S. embassies. This recommendation seems to be an attempt to break the DO's cultural hegemony within the intelligence community, and I'm afraid it's necessary. These secret warriors have served the country bravely, but as the commission notes, they have "an almost perfect record of resisting external recommendations." That must stop.

Spying, in the end, is about real spies. The agency's first great spymaster, Allen Dulles, made that point in his memoir, "The Craft of Intelligence," by quoting the 2,400-year-old admonition of Chinese strategist Sun Tzu: "What is called 'foreknowledge' cannot be elicited from spirits, nor from gods, nor by analogy with past events, nor from calculations. It must be obtained from men who know the enemy situation." That's precisely what America lacked in Iraq.


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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