THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

Ican, how many times must we bring up the fact that the US intended no such thing at all for Iraq? That the original plan said nothing about putting a democracy in there? How can you claim that this was the plan all along when there is substantial evidence that it was not? Cycloptichorn

Ican Nothing you quoted or wrote addresses the very real fact that Bush blocked the progress towards an Iraqi democracy for quite a long time. Do you really need me to post a timeline of the ACTUAL events which took place in Iraq in 2003-04 that lead to the elections actually taking place? Cycloptichorn

the very real fact that Bush blocked the progress towards an Iraqi democracy for quite a long time.

President Bush told Bob Woodward that the decision not to invade Iraq was made at the morning session on September 15 [2001]. Iraq was not even on the table during the September 15 afternoon session, which dealt solely with Afghanistan.69 Rice said that when President Bush called her on Sunday, September 16, he said the focus would be on Afghanistan, although he still wanted plans for Iraq should the country take some action or the administration eventually determine that it had been involved in the 9/11 attacks.70

Ican, I just don’t have all the faith that you do in General Franks. To me he seemed to have wanted to go to Iraq for a long time and so anything he says should take that into consideration. I rely more on the bi-partisan 9/11 report.

[Taken from: 10.3 “PHASE TWO”AND THE QUESTION OF IRAQ of 9/11 report. ]

Quote:

To protect his own ties with Iraq,Turabi reportedly brokered an agreement that Bin Ladin would stop supporting activities against Saddam. Bin Ladin apparently honored this pledge, at least for a time, although he continued to aid a group of Islamist extremists operating in part of Iraq (Kurdistan) outside of Baghdad’s control. In the late 1990s, these extremist groups suffered major defeats by Kurdish forces.

In 2001, with Bin Ladin’s help they re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam. There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy.54

personal admission: There was not an immiment threat, but I will agree that it was a threat that bore watching.

General Franks is of the same ilk as this administrattion, they don't make any mistakes. We are all safe in their hands while they institutionalize religion (and their beliefs) in our country.

It's also interesting to note that Bush flew back from Texas to sign legislation to try to keep Terri Schiavo alive by artificial means, while denying our veterans health care. If he would put as much effort for our veterans, his attempts to help Terri would make sense. Otherwise, it's simply hypocrisy.

It's irrational to people like you because you'll "never get it." You won't understand this, but many of us support our troops after they are wounded in war, and return home. We expect our government to meet their needs 100 percent; not keep cutting the budget to reduce their care. Many of our vets are ignored, and many now live on the streets of this country. That's a shame.

Sat 26 Mar 2005

US probe unveils new Iraq jail abuse claims

ALAN MCEWEN


A US Army investigation found systematic abuse and possible torture of Iraqi prisoners at a base near the city of Mosul, just as top military officials became aware of abuse allegations at Abu Ghraib, newly-released documents show.

Records previously released by the army have detailed abuses at Abu Ghraib, outside Baghdad, and other sites in Iraq, as well as at sites in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The new documents, released last night, were the first to reveal abuses at the jail in Mosul and are among the few to allege torture directly.

An officer found that detainees "were being systematically and intentionally mistreated" at the holding facility in December 2003. The 311th Military Intelligence Battalion of the army's 101st Airborne Division ran the lockup.

"There is evidence that suggests the 311th MI personnel and/or translators engaged in physical torture of the detainees," a memo from the investigator said. The January 2004 report said the prisoners' rights under the Geneva Conventions were violated.

The military became aware of the Abu Ghraib abuses in January 2004, when pictures were turned over to investigators. The resulting uproar after the pictures became public tarnished the military's image worldwide and sparked investigations of detainee abuses.

The records about the Mosul jail were part of more than 1200 pages of documents referring to allegations of prisoner abuse. The army released the records to reporters and to the American Civil Liberties Union, which had filed a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit.

"They show the torture and abuse of detainees was routine, and such treatment was considered an acceptable practice by US forces," ACLU lawyer Amrit Singh said.

Guards at the detention facility near Mosul came from at least three infantry units of the 101st Airborne, including an air-defence artillery unit. The investigating officer, whose name was blacked out of the documents, said the troops were poorly trained and were encouraged to abuse prisoners.

According to the report, the abuse included:

• Forcing detainees to perform exercises such as deep knee bends for hours on end, to the point of exhaustion;

• Blowing cigarette smoke into the sandbags the prisoners were forced to wear as hoods;

• Throwing cold water on prisoners in a room that was between 40 degrees (4.4 Celsius) and 50 degrees (ten Celsius);

• Blasting the detainees with heavy-metal music, yelling at them and banging on doors and ammunition cans.

No-one was punished for the abuses, because the investigating officer said there was insufficient proof against any individual. The report did not say what actions might have amounted to torture or the individuals who might have committed them. The investigator ruled that troops were responsible for the broken jaw of a 20-year-old detainee who had been rounded up with his father, a suspected member of the Fedayeen Saddam guerrilla group.

The records also contained details of other abuse investigations. In one, soldiers admitted they had rounded up suspected looters near Baghdad in the summer of 2003, stripped them naked and told them to walk home.

The staff sergeant in charge of that unit said he knew what he did was wrong, but he wanted to humiliate the looters so much they would never return.

The sergeant was given an "other than honourable" discharge, and two other soldiers involved in the stripping incident were given letters of reprimand, said army spokesman Col Jeremy Martin.

In another incident, soldiers from a Howitzer battery beat three detainees in September 2003. Col Martin said all four received non-judicial punishment, which can include letters of reprimand, fines or reductions in rank.

The soldiers said they were angered by what the detainees had done. One prisoner had shot at US soldiers while hiding behind a group of children, they claimed, and another was accused of forging passports for possible terrorists.

"I think any American and soldier would have acted as I did," a soldier wrote in a statement.

Surely no citizen of France, Germany, Russia, the UK, Spain, Japan or Italy will claim that their soldiers did not do far worse during their 20th century colonial and other wars, and on a much larger scale, and generally with far less voluntary government action to report and try the perpetrators.

Here's one on veteran's benefit cuts.

http://rdu.news14.com/content/headlines/?ArID=26534&SecID=2

Vets rally against benefit cuts
3/31/2003 1:37 PM
By: Katie Marzullo & Web Staff

Soldiers fighting the war with Iraq are tomorrow's veterans and several congressmen from North Carolina and vets are working to ensure certain benefits are waiting for them when they come home.

The House recently passed a budget cutting billions in veteran programs.
...

The proposed budget still has to go before the Senate for a vote. It passed in the House by just three votes.