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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 07:47 am
This makes one wonder what other land mines have been planted by this adminstration.

Quote:
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 08:08 am
Steve,

You should be a bit more selective in your reading. I did review the slightly hysterical Malthusian piece on energy production - I have seen many such things before. It is a moderately engaging, but highly selective mixture of fact, anecdote, and blatant falsehood. In the first place a "bell curve" is the name we give to the characteristic shape of the distribution function of a random variable. It is not, repeat not, the necessary shape of the production function of any commodity, man-made or otherwise. Several references to this utterly false concept are at the core of the logical argument in the piece. (By the way, if you believe this stuff, then why do you support the Kyoto Treaty? If this Malthusian fantasy is to be accepted, then the solution to global warming is already at hand.).

The Reporting on several of the enduring fantasies of environmentalists, such as wind and solar power is mostly accurate, but even there he paints a grimmer picture than the facts indicate. His case against fuel cells rests entirely on the presumed permanent need for platinum as a catalyst in all such devices - contrary to the facts.) He never once makes reference to the world's truly enormous supply of coal and of the various fuels that can be extracted from it (the U.S. has enough high quality coal to meet our needs for more than a century.). While it is certainly true that several of the favorite fantasies of environmentalists for "clean fuels" such as hydrogen, actually require the consumption of more energy than they yield, it is not true that the tradeoffs for the production of oil from shale and tar sands either are now or will remain as poor as he reports. Indeed what is directly behind the current boom in Alberta are the high yields and energy efficiencies from new in situ heating/extraction techniques developed by the Canadian producers. The cost in terms of dollars and energy input for such techniques is going down while the price or value of the product is going up.

The reporting of the potential of biological fuels is wildly inaccurate. The productivity of agriculture has increased enormously in the last half century. The world faces a surplus of both food and the capacity to produce it. U.S. agriculture production has increased enormously in the past several decades despite a huge decrease in the amount of land set aside for its production. There is already significant excess capacity that is being efficiently used to produce marketable fuel, particularly in Brazil and the United States.

I believe your description of the strategic views of France is both naïve and contrary to the facts. Britain can hitch its wagon to that star if it wishes, but I think you will come to regret it. I believe it is a mistake to assume that Britain will be able to continue dancing on the razors edge between Europe and the U.S. The evolving centralization of EU governance itself will eventually prevent this. Moreover in the long run, I doubt seriously that the EU will be able to hold together - increasingly the Central European nations will realize that this has become yet a new form of domination by France and Germany, hardly different or better than those of the past. We shall see.

I don't understand your observations with respect to the World Bank & Paul Wolfowitz. Since Breton Woods the informal arrangement has been that Europe appoints the head of the IMF and the U.S. the World Bank. To my knowledge there has never been an exception to this rule.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 09:13 am
"It is not, repeat not, the necessary shape of the production function of any commodity, man-made or otherwise."

I didnt say it was. Only that it appears to apply to both the discovery and production of oil and gas.

this is for Britain

http://www.peakoil.net/OilGasUK.html

and this for the world

http://www4.tsl.uu.se/isv/UHDSG/

---------------------------------------------


"(By the way, if you believe this stuff, then why do you support the Kyoto Treaty? If this Malthusian fantasy is to be accepted, then the solution to global warming is already at hand.)"

Yep we're all going to die fighting over the last drop of oil before we can burn it.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4216

'Too little' oil for global warming

# 10:00 05 October 2003
# Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition
# Andy Coghlan


Oil and gas will run out too fast for doomsday global warming scenarios to materialise, according to a controversial analysis presented this week at the University of Uppsala in Sweden. The authors warn that all the fuel will be burnt before there is enough carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to realise predictions of melting ice caps and searing temperatures.


[thats a relief]

----------------------------------------------


"Britain can hitch its wagon to that star if it wishes, but I think you will come to regret it."

We are part of Europe, geographically culturally any each way you look at it. The mid ocean Atlantic ridge does not go through the English Channel, so we are going to stay moored off mainland Europe for some while to come. Are you proposing we become the 51st state of the union? Or leave the EU to plough our own furrow?

-----------------------------------------------

"I don't understand your observations with respect to the World Bank & Paul Wolfowitz."

Its a fact that many people here are distressed by his "appointment", both with him and the manner in which it was done. Its true that by custom and practise US appoints world bank chief, Europe the head of IMF. But 5 years ago US blocked the European nomination which set a precedent. A fortnight ago at the G8 summit (under UK presidency) it was agreed that both jobs should be filled by competition. But within a week George Bush had "appointed" Wolfowitz completely ignoring the G8 and delivering a particular snub to Tony Blair. My newspaper yesterday said it was "a humiliation too far".
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 09:28 am
McTag wrote:
Thought for today: how weird it seems to me, the the congress and the US nation up to the president himself are getting involved with compassion and concern about one poor woman in vegetative state who may have her life-support withdrawn.

Not so about many thousands of innocent Iraqis who had their lives terminated or their bodies maimed or poisoned.
That's a matter of interpretation. Ted Kennedy and his gang of fools think we should hastily abandon the Iraqis to their fate (pull the plug). Congress, like the American public by proxy, has consistently disagreed. It is only a minority of Congress who fit your description... and they're mostly Democrats. :wink: Fortunately, the American public has shown more wisdom in a clear majority of their choices for representation…

OHhhh say can you see?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 09:55 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Japan did not attack because the US is a democracy. That wasn't even a issue; it was because of the trade embargo, and Japan was expanding it colonization by military force to get access to raw materials which Japan lacks.

We all know that! I did not claim that Japan went to war in 1941 against the US democracy because the US was a democracy. All I claimed was that Japan went to war against the US democracy.

Likewise, I do not claim (and neither should you) that the former members of Saddam's regime and their allies are going to war against the Iraqi government because it is a democracy. I do claim that the former members of Saddam's regime and their allies are going to war against the Iraqi government because they wish to regain the power they possessed under Saddam's regime. You should claim the same.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 10:01 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, Please do your homework before you post unfounded, nonfactual, information to make your case. It just makes you look more "stupido."

Please do yourself a favor by reading and understanding what I write, before making your case that what I didn't write is untrue. It just makes you look irrational. Laughing
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 10:06 am
McTag wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, Please do your homework before you post unfounded, nonfactual, information to make your case. It just makes you look more "stupido."


Yes and Ican, will you please use more colours? Some of your latest have been black-and-white only, very drab. Please consider the scrollers when posting.
Laughing
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 10:12 am
McTag wrote:
Hey my posts are short.

Pithy, and to-the-point. And always truthful.
But sadly monochrome, I can't work the colours.

Thought for today: how weird it seems to me, the the congress and the US nation up to the president himself are getting involved with compassion and concern about one poor woman in vegetative state who may have her life-support withdrawn.

Not so about many thousands of innocent Iraqis who had their lives terminated or their bodies maimed or poisoned..
Laughing
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 10:23 am
One more for McTag:

One honors oneself simply by willingly and knowingly joining that group whose members all honor the life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness of all members of that group, regardless of the risks.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 10:29 am
Steve,

So now, after castigating the United States for dismissing the Kyoto remedy as an exorbitantly costly remedy in search of a poroblen, you now credulously accept the proposition that there isn't and never was enough carbon based fuel toi cause a material effect on the atmosphere. We had an acronym in the Navy for folks who were habitually wrong -- WEFT.

I note the link you cited took no account of coal, biogas, or the potential of shale production - all of which are significant sources, compared to those they did tabulate and show in the pretty graphs, and all of which release CO2 when burned. Rather superficial stuff, that. Perhaps material for a Master's degree thesis somewhere, but hardly new or convincing information.

I did not suggest that the UK is not part of Europe. Instead, I pointed out the profound difference between the centuries old British policy of European exceptionalism and that which you advocate. You are beating a dead horse there.

It has become axiomatic that Europe becomes quickly distressed about nearly any action we take, including appointments such as Wolfowitz'. After a while we just assume you have a permanent case of the vapors and get on with things.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 10:31 am
Quote, " All I claimed was that Japan went to war against the US democracy." Actually, ican, we have always been a democratic republic. YOu can't even get that straight! LOL
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 10:39 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
McTag wrote:
Thought for today: how weird it seems to me, the the congress and the US nation up to the president himself are getting involved with compassion and concern about one poor woman in vegetative state who may have her life-support withdrawn.

Not so about many thousands of innocent Iraqis who had their lives terminated or their bodies maimed or poisoned.
That's a matter of interpretation. Ted Kennedy and his gang of fools think we should hastily abandon the Iraqis to their fate (pull the plug). Congress, like the American public by proxy, has consistently disagreed. It is only a minority of Congress who fit your description... and they're mostly Democrats. :wink: Fortunately, the American public has shown more wisdom in a clear majority of their choices for representation…

OHhhh say can you see?


I'm not sure what your answer had to do with my observation, if anything, Bill.

One American woman- major concerns

Many thousands of innocent Iraquis- few concerns
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 10:45 am
ican711nm wrote:
One more for McTag:

One honors oneself simply by willingly and knowingly joining that group whose members all honor the life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness of all members of that group, regardless of the risks.


Vacuuous nonsense. Smug self-regarding twaddle. What risks are you running right now? Your oil supply is being bought by Iraqi lives, thousands needlessly murdered.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 10:57 am
In many situations, TALK IS CHEAP. Those that continue to support this chaos in Iraq probably didn't lose their own child or friend. I think it speaks volumes that the army and marines are not getting enough volunteers to keep their ranks up at minimum levels.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 11:27 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Quote, " All I claimed was that Japan went to war against the US democracy." Actually, ican, we have always been a democratic republic. YOu can't even get that straight! LOL

You understand, do you not, that there are many different kinds of democracies? A democratic republic is but one kind (of which there are many kinds). So yes the US is a democratic republic. But that does not deprive it of the status of being classified a democracy. Similarly, being a human male does not deprive you of the status of being classified a human.

Logic! Ain't it wonderful?

Thanks for the opportunity of letting me try and clear all that up for you!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 11:33 am
McTag wrote:
I'm not sure what your answer had to do with my observation, if anything, Bill.

One American woman- major concerns

Many thousands of innocent Iraqis- few concerns
Confused Many millions of innocent Iraqis- few concerns from Kennedy and Co.

... You know exactly what I'm saying.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 11:47 am
Revel,
I don't understand your hangup on the WMD whooey.

Within the two week period following 9/11/2001, President Bush announced more than once to the nation, the Congress and the world that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that harbor terrorists.

At that time there were terrorist training bases in both Afghanistan and Iraq. The terrorist training bases in Iraq were re-established in 2001 after the Kurds had defeated them a couple of years earlier.

We invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 without obtaining UN approval and removed Afghanistan's tyrannical government, because that government refused to attempt to remove the terrorist bases from Afghanistan.

We invaded Iraq in March 2003 without obtaining UN approval and removed Iraq's tyrannical government, because that government in Iraq refused to attempt to remove the terrorist bases from Iraq.

We are attempting to secure a democratic government of the Afghanistanis own design in Afghanistan primarily because we believe such a government is less likely to permit the re-establishent of terrorist bases there.

We are attempting to secure a democratic government of the Iraqis own design in Iraq primarily because we believe such a government is less likely to permit the re-establishent of terrorist bases there.

I think that only after that enormously difficult work is completed successfully, should we consider invasion and removal of any other tyrannical governments that refuse to attempt to remove terrorist bases from their countries.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 11:56 am
ican, You were talking about Japan's attack on the US, and Germany's attack on Poland. My answer to you concerned Japan's attack on the US. Maybe you missed that.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 12:03 pm
I would like to proceed this post with the following statement: I don't support war in any way, no matter whose side we are talking about. I believe a dead Iraqi is the same as a dead American. Therefore, I neither support nor condone the actions of the insurgents in Iraq.

That being said; it is interesting to hear the things they say. One might even learn a lesson or two from it:

http://www.albasrah.net/maqalat_mukhtara/arabic/0305/jaysh_mojahdin_200305.htm

Quote:
Official Transcript of Communiqué No.7



Letter to the American People



People of America



We wish to share with you our thoughts on the events we experienced, as well as what the future may bear, & despite the madness we have endured & still, we see no harm in presenting you the criminal nature of your newly re-elected Emperor.

Despite our belief, that the elections were flawed, we know now that when there is a close tie between the candidates, there is something wrong. Some in our ranks, believe that any candidate from any side of the spectrum, are two faces of the same coin. You the people, have said your word, in what is claimed to be a democracy; & thus, have chosen a leader, who claims to represent your vision.

It is your right to lead the world, as it is the right of any nation which chooses to do so, yet this does not allow you to conquer others. There is a belief of a large number of our people, that a lot of facts do not reach you, facts that may be classified as unsuitable for the general public. Facts, that are twisted to gain a positive image here or there. Nothing new to an emperor who represents deceptions, lies, crimes, half victories, & total defeats.

Your administration, time after time, lied & presented you with achievements directed by Hollywood & preformed in Iraq.

You have elected these criminals, & thus, you are responsible for their actions. We hope that your future decisions will be based on reason & belief, for your emperor tomorrow will mirror the image of America to the world, & by his actions, will your new empire be

Measured. And for the first time in history, a mafia of the weapons plants represented by

Bush, Oil companies represented by Dick Chayne, & the Zionists by Paul Wolfowitz &

Richard Pearle, hijack the United States of America in an ingenious plan to control the world. This type of Administration is exactly what Benjamin Franklin once warned you of.

By weakness & ignorance, you have allowed this gang of criminals to hijack you country, create a new phobia, to recruit those whom they regard as nothing but fuel & vehicles to their master plan.

This administration, will enforce on you as it tries to enforce on our people, new laws that will result in a police state similar to those your consecutive governments back in our region. Legislation will soon be drafted by the appointed puppets to allow foreign ownership of land & structure & soon our people will be the foreigners on the land of their for-fathers. This new world order, will enslave people of all religions & race& Soon your children as well as ours, if they survive, will truly live in a planet of apes, & with a reduced population for ease of control, this can only be the implementation of a plan once presented by Henry Kissinger.

This world has not yet seen an empire, which constitutes in it's prime objectives, the destruction & genocide of whole populations & societies, only to control the energy resources of this planet.

Your representatives, & their media, have portrayed an image that an insurgency is in

Effect & that it is led by elements of foreign fighters entering from Syria & neighboring

Countries; yet we assure you, that it is only a continuation of what Bush once claimed,

"Mission Accomplished". This resistance movement was prepared for, & is only the second chapter of this War. And we are mostly if not all Iraqis, Proud Iraqis who kept their oaths to defend people & country. And because this war may last longer than what the invaders anticipated, we have all promised to make their stay long, costly & painful.

Blaming other countries, is nothing but creating new pretexts to invade other sovereign states & back future expeditions.

They have made our country a battlefield to settle accounts with elements of Al-Qaida, formerly dear allies and partners, they have also created new phobias to justify their continued presence, despite their loss of this war.

As for the general media, we call on them to think about what they declare, & not fear death & imprisonment, do not fall into traps prepared by those pull the strings from Tel Aviv.

As for the declared casualties, This is an epic on it's own. We assure you that the figures are far higher than declared. It is not a secret today in Iraq, what we call the green card soldiers, young men from South America & other parts of the world gathered and promised the U.S. citizenship & large sums of cash for their mercenary services in Iraq. They are always on the frontlines, & their casualty figures are never declared. They are hidden in unmarked graves and dumped into rivers under the cover of moonless nights. Some of which, the resistance has provided evidence of. There are also the large numbers of security contractors, who are not listed as military personnel. To us, it is one thing to be tricked into this war, but it is totally different, to come here & fight someone else's war.

After the failed American Elections in Iraq, they will now play the sectarian card. They are already sending their mercenaries to destroy churches & mosques alike in order to prepare the grounds for civil war & unrest. They will train more & more local traitors to conduct police operations & detention raids on anyone who does not accept democracy performed at the muzzle of a barrel. The local mercenaries will also act as sandbags to their masters, when we choose to strike.

The non conduct of your troops has also taken it's toll on our people, it has created resentment & disgust. They dismiss these war crimes as isolated cases, yet the figures are always on the rise. What's more are the scandals of Abu Graib, poka, The use of Chemical weapons on Falluja, & only gods knows what's to come.

Life under Dictatorship is far more safer, than behind the bars of your democracy.

Have you not asked yourselves, where are the weapons of mass destruction, & where are the links between our previous government & the once CIA sponsored AL-Qaida? Or is that all now a thing of the past?

What happened to the thousands of innocent people who died & continue to die of cancer,

Women who give birth to deformed babies, caused by the effect of your military's depleted Uranium shells. Since 1990, our first encounter with your troops on the battlefields, thousands on both sides of the conflict have suffered unknown illnesses, many have died since then, & others lack medical attention. Large parts of Iraq will be radioactive for millions of years to come, & if we were to return this radiating material to the U.S. & Britain, we would be no different than those who use them.

May we ask you, why you think the British government decided to set foot only in areas of the south, where the resistance is still partially active. They have left the difficult areas for your boys to suffer. This deal was accepted by your government only to form a purely cosmetic alliance with a nation that still strives for the glory of it's imperial past.

They have turned the land of the free, into a camp of capitalist slavery, and then changed

The home of the brave into a printing house for papers they call dollars & guarded it with enormous military might. This administration, which claims that you have re-elected, has brought on more humiliation & insults to each & every one of you, than any other government in your short, yet tremendous history.

& as odd as it may seem, we advise you to take matters into your own hands, & rid this world of such criminals, or any form of government which resembles the Neo-cons in their aims. Form a third party if need be, appoint those who resist pre-emptive war as true representatives of the people, before it is too late. & if demonstrations & protests are not heard, use & protect what is left of your constitution & correct matters by force. The world awaits your move. Today, these words may seem strange, but we believe that a nation which once gave the world John F. Kennedy, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Hughes, & Henry Ford, will not fall short of giving true leaders of substance & dignity.

This war has taught us, that one man on the field can change the outcome of a day, One man, who believes in true freedom, can do what nations put together dare think of.

We share these thoughts with great honesty, to those of you who spent days & nights trying to prevent this war. Timeless efforts to prevent this real holocaust.

To all of you we say, you are the true patriots, & thank you for your time.

The Mujahideen Army

Baghdad- Republic of Iraq

On the 7th of Safar 1426

The 17th of March 2005


Lot of truth in that.

Cycloptichorn

ps. Discussion welcomed, dissent welcomed, personal attacks not welcomed nor responded to.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2005 12:39 pm
Mctag...... one thing you should know, he knows what you know before you know what you know especially when he dos'nt know anything.
Or have you noticed that?
0 Replies
 
 

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