THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Gelisgesti wrote:
Why don't you read what is written ....

there is no honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that

duh
Here we see Gel's position in a nutshell. This absurd, clearly Anti-American premise is present in your most every post these days as you live peacefully under the blanket of protection provided by the very people you dishonor with constant derision. Disgusting.

The point we're making here Bill, or at least I'm making it, is that the world seems to be a whole lot more unsafe since Georgie started his neo-crusade. Not just for the soldiers in Iraq. I'm more at risk here in Britain.

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BTW, and as we have agreed in past discussions, we are still very unsure of the final outcome of Iraq or those countries seeking change. For that, we must all wait and see. Iraq seems to many that they are headed in the right direction towards democracy, but that may be an illusion of the first order. Only the final product will tell. As you probably know, there is much infighting in the Iraq Assembly, and how that translates into the final Constititution is still a big unknown.

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georgeob1 wrote:

revel wrote:

stupid article. The facts speak for themselves. We have messed up in the after math of the war, we do have fewer people joining the military than we did in 2000 and we still haven't caught Osma Bin Laden.

One of the hallmarks of intelligence is the ability and inclination to observe the unfolding of facts and events and to reassess previously fixed positions and ideas, based on them.

Unfortunately, there are those whose hatred of President Bush prevent them from any such observances. I've chosen to not engage them, since there seems little point, beyond being subjected to their irrational rantings and labeling of all with which they disagree as "stupid".

How childish, yet how predictable.

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Quote:

there is no honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that

I see nothing anti-American in Gelisgesti's comment. In my opinion, if my country starts a war that I don't agree with, the actions of my country's armed forces, directed by a misguided administration, reflect no honor on my country even though each individual soldier's brave actions reflect honor on him or herself as he or she obeys the commanding officer.

I love my country and I'm proud of its noblest ideals. I am not anti-American -- nor is Ge -- if I disagree strongly with the actions of the current administration.

When he says there is no honor in whatever we do, I read that as a statement of the quagmire we have got ourselves into in Iraq: if we stay, we are condemned by the Iraqis and the world; if we go, we are condemned by Iraqis and the world.

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Foxfyre said

"good results are good results no matter what the motives were for accomplishing them."

Bush hasn't achieved a good result in Iraq, thats the whole point. He's wasted thousands of lives and billions of dollars and achieved nothing.

George said

"All that is required to get a secure source of oil is money, and we have that"

This is not true for two reasons

You can't buy what's not there. There is oil at the moment, but its finite and we are moving into an era of peak oil. All the money in the world won't buy an extra 2 bn bpd oil if its not there...thats why the price is high and looks like remaining high.
Secondly, what happens if you dont have control of the oil tap? If some nasty little man like Saddam actually uses his control of Iraqi oil for political leverage? It goes on all the time. Iraqi oil was not secure, thats why we got rid of him.

"The evolution of Iraq will likely have a profound effect on what happens in Iran - that was clearly one of the important factors in the decision to intervene in Iraq."

...and is another reason why the real motives for the invasion of Iraq had to be kept out of public debate.

"(The WMD bit was merely the ONLY argument our "friends" on the Security Council would entertain, and the Administration chose to take the matter to them to appease political sentiment in Britain. In retrospect we should have just skipped it and forced the British government to chose between us and France.)"

This demonstrates typical American arrogance in believing the US can do as it wants regardless of world opinion or international law. The British Attorney General was telling Blair that war against Iraq was of dubious legality without getting the UN to ratify the use of force. The military chiefs were saying they would not go to war unless there was absolute certainty that it was legal. (there was nearly a mutiny...as it happened the only casualties were politicians and law officers who resigned, Peter Goldsmith's deputy Elizabeth Wilmshurst described the invasion as "a criminal act of aggression" before she walked out).

General Sir Mike Jackson said "I have just spent the last few years of my life putting Slobodan Milosovic behind bars, I'm damned if I'm going to occupy the next cell at the Hague." This was serious business. It wasnt just appeasing political sentiment in this country.

The fact that we did go to war in the end without UN authorisation to use force, described by Kofi Anan as "not in conformity with the principles of the Charter, and therefore illegal" in his opinion, is the root cause of so much bad feeling now about the war.

And if you had skipped it and forced us to choose between US or France, could you be sure we wouldnt choose France? Where would that leave your little military escapade then? America's only ally in Britain was tony Blair plus the people he converted to support America. Could you really take the chance of pissing him off on a matter as vital as this?

"Today most nations are signatories to the non-proliferation treaty and those that violate it are in principle subject to international sanctions"

And the npt bargain is that you don't develop nuclear weapons and we (that includes USA) will assist you with nuclear power development and work towards disarmament ourselves. By that criterion, USA and Britain should be subject to sanctions.

"the Syrians have abandoned their former arrogance and bugged out"

No they haven't. They are in the Bekaa valley, part of Lebanon when I last looked.

"One of the hallmarks of intelligence is the ability and inclination to observe the unfolding of facts and events and to reassess previously fixed positions and ideas, based on them."

In theory yes. In practice they present conjecture as fact to their own political masters, and allow them to make fools of themselves in public. Like Colin Powell just over 2 years ago at the UN. Who could fail to be impressed with Powell's conviction ( Smile

) that there REALLY REALLY REALLY were wmd in Iraq?

Kara

Will US invade Iran? I don't know. I'm pretty sure that was part of the original neo con agenda. Iran is completely surrounded by enemy (US) forces, they'll keep the pressure on.

But the neo cons have so ****ed up in Iraq that there's no stomach for it. In fact Wolfowitz has been packed off to the World Bank (providing the staff don't all go on strike) and Bolton has been sent to Siberia in the form of the UN. Having said that regime change in Iran must figure somewhere.

you just said

"When he says there is no honor in whatever we do, I read that as a statement of the quagmire we have got ourselves into in Iraq:"

absolutely, and the same applies to the UK. Except its honour...really how long is it now since you people had your own schools and stuff and still you keep making elementary mistakes Smile

[note for George, smiley means its not to be taken absolutely seriously]

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I don't think anyone here doubts Gelisti's loyalty. Instead it his ability to assess facts and events without subjective selectivity, and to draw rational conclusions, guided by an understanding of the historical context in which the events themselves arise, that we doubt. It may be true that his words follow logically from his opinions. The problem is his opinions don't follow logically from the facts. Not all opinions are equal. Some are based on knowledge and thoughtful consideration of the various alternatives; others are based on prejudice and ignorance.

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Steve,

Your projections about the world's oil reserves are simply false. The reserve quantity is a function of the current price. The higher the price the greater the quantity of economically recoverable reserves. The tar sands in Alberta contain truly enormous reserves, now that the Canadians have chosen to develop them. We have similar deposits under the greart basin in western Utah. Their development is merely an issue with environmentalists - easily overcome when the chips are down as recently demonstrated with respect to the just reopened fields in Alaska.
Finally the United States posseses enormous technological resources with which I expect we will find alternate solutions using our reserves of coal and fissionable material. Overall we are quite well situated - far better than are China, India, and Japan.

Britain's contribution to the effort in Iraq is less than 8% of the total. We could have got through without it. The political support that Britain has provided was quite important, but in the end, probably not essential.

If some of the bureaucrats and generals in Blair's government were ready to mutiny as you say, that is likely because they have bought in to the legalistic and bureaucratic frameworks so loved and advocated by the EU crowd. (your fault for signing the ICC treaty.) Bureaucrats and generals are rather easy to replace, and once they understand this, their "mutinies" tend to subside. I stand by my point - we should have forced Britain to choose between us and France. I believe the choice would have been for us, but if it went otherwise, better to learn that now than to be held back by a tenuously committed ally.

You can promote sanctions if you wish against Britain for its nuclear weapons development (your program, by the way started a year before ours). However I won't for ours. The fact is that the circumstances under which both of our countries did this entirely justified the effort. Moreover we have acted with great restraint in these matters ever since. I am not willing to concede equivalence to either Iran or North Korea. You can if you wish, but I consider that to be misguided and foolish.

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georgeob1 wrote:

I don't think anyone here doubts Gelisti's loyalty. Instead it his ability to assess facts and events without subjective selectivity, and to draw rational conclusions, guided by an understanding of the historical context in which the events themselves arise, that we doubt. It may be true that his words follow logically from his opinions. The problem is his opinions don't follow logically from the facts. Not all opinions are equal. Some are based on knowledge and thoughtful consideration of the various alternatives; others are based on prejudice and ignorance.

Interesting tchnique and so like George George.... spinning back fisted compliment followed by a couple of front kicks. You truly are a legend in your own mind.. thanks

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Quote:

Except its honour...really how long is it now since you people had your own schools and stuff and still you keep making elementary mistakes

I guess spelling isn't my strong suit.

Steve, I think we will indeed invade Iran, probably June or July. After badly blotting our copybook, we would have to go it alone. If we claimed that we had solid intel, who would believe us?

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George you said

"The reserve quantity is a function of the current price."

Well I know what you mean but you've not expressed it very well. Clearly as the price goes up, more difficult oil becomes attractive to recover. But that has no bearing on the total reserve, which unless its infinite, has been decreasing since we first started tapping it.

The fact is the "easy oil" is getting scarcer. Its getting harder and harder to recover. Technological developments help, but the bald facts of life (economics and thermodynamics) dictate that ulitmately we end up putting more energy into oil extraction than the extracted oil liberates. At this point the oil has "run out" (Whatever the oil price). There is no getting away from that.

"I stand by my point - we should have forced Britain to choose between us and France. I believe the choice would have been for us, but if it went otherwise, better to learn that now than to be held back by a tenuously committed ally. "

Well perhaps, from your point of view, you should. It illustrates just what a superb politician/salesman Blair is. I don't think anyone else could have got to Bush like he did, and persuaded the Americans to press the UN for a second resolution on the use of force.

"tenuously committed ally". Thats an interesting phrase and I've said something similar myself. The twin pillars of Blair's foreign policy are membership of the EU and the "special relationship" with the US. Of the two one is solid and enduring, the other more brittle though still strong. The Iraq question forced Blair into the very position he sort to avoid, a choice between Europe and the US. It must have been a truly agonising 30 seconds. Britain's destiny is with Europe. We are part of that continent. We want to play a leading role, and are uniquely placed to do so. On the other hand the relationship with the US could be put at jeopardy by acting as a "tenuously committed ally". Better to upset the Germans and the French for now than risk a more permanent rift with the US.

The repercussions of Iraq continue. But Blair has handled an almost impossible situation with some aplomb. What a pity the US didn't fullfil their side of the bargain by delivering a stable free and democratic Iraq that the likes of Wolfowitz promised would be easy.

Kara,

I sincerely hope you're wrong. But I think you have a better handle on things than I do. I never thought USA would attack Iraq after 9/11.

Some while back ex LiberalDemocrat MP now baroness Shirley Williams, visiting professor at Harvard I think, really made me sit up when she said in her opinion, conflict between USA and Iran was "inevitable". That stuck with me, and I'm alarmed to hear similiar view from you.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

... there is no honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that duh

People can't see that because it is not true. It is merely a another falsehood promoted by the liturgy of the perniciously envious.

There is honor in doing the right thing. The honor of which I write is that which, regardless of the risk, one bestows on oneself for honoring the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of all people who honor the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of all people.

Why can't you see that?

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Ican - your optimism and great good common sense never fail to brighten my spirits Smile

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JustWonders wrote:

Ican - your optimism and great good common sense never fail to brighten my spirits

Thank you!

Your comment plus your signature line by Thoreau, inspire me to add:

From 45,000 feet, the sky is always a beautiful blue.

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This is written today by an Iraqi who cares about the future of Iraq and is excited about a new democratic Iraq. To me, this is more important than anything ever printed in the New York Times, the Washington Post, or anywhere else.

Democracy in Iraq is Here!

Sunday, March 20, 2005

2 Years

It has been now two years since the United States, UK and other countries invaded our nation. It has been two years since Iraqis have had to live with daily violent attacks and rampant terrorism. It has been two years since our nation began being turned upside down. It has been two years since the road to democracy began.

It has been a very hard two years. So many people have died, so much has been destroyed, so many drops of tears and blood have been shed, so many have been robbed of loved ones, and so many words have been spoken about Iraq, it's future, and this war.

Two years...seems like yesterday that I was awoken by bombs going off in Baghdad, and the realisation that my life and that of my country was going to change. That very day I remember being scared that my house might be destroyed by a bomb, or that my relatives who were forcibly put into the Iraqi army might be killed.

Two years since Saddam came on TV, and pledged that Iraq would never fall. Little did he know, he surrendered like a rat in a whole only months later. Two years since my father had a heart.

Two years is about 730 days. In those days what have I seen. My eyes have seen more than I had ever hoped, more blood, more death and more pain, then I ever imagined or hoped I would have seen.

In those days I have seen the worst of humanity, the animal that lives in all humanity, the ability of humanity to destroy at will others, and rob the life given to others by God almight himself.

So you ask me, Husayn, was it worth it. What have you gotten? What has Iraq acheived? These are questions I get a lot.

To may outsiders, like those who protested last year, who will protest today. This was a fools errand, it brought nothing but death and destruction. I am sheltered in Iraq, but I know how the world feels, how people have come to either love or hate Bush, as though heis the emobdiement of this war. As though this war is part of Bush, they forget the over twenty million Iraqis, they forget the Middle Easterners, they forget the average person on the street, the average man with the average dream.

Ask him if it was worth it. Ask him what is different. Ask him if he would go through it again, go ahead ask him, ask me, many of you have.

Now I answer you, I answer you on behalf of myself, and my countrymen. I dont care what your news tells you, what your television and newspapers say, this is how we feel. Despite all that has happened. Despite all the hurt, the pain, blood, sweat and tears. These two years have given us hope we never had.

Before March 20, 2003, we were in a dungeon. We did not see the light. Saddam Hussain was crushing Iraq's spirit slowly, we longed for his end, but knew we could not challenge him, or his diabolical seed who would no doubt follow him and continue his generation of hell on Earth.

Since then, we now have hope. Hope is not a tangible thing, but it is something, it is more than being blinded by darkness, by being stuck in a mental pit without any future.

Hope has been the greatest product of the last two years. No doubt, many have died, many have died by accident or due to crimes. But their sacrifices are not, and will not be for nothing. I refuse to let it be, and my countrymen stand with me.

Our cities are smoking, our graveyards full, and terrorists in our midst. But we are not defeated. We are not down, we are not regretful. We are not going to surrender. For all that the two years have brought, the greatest thign they have given us is a future, and a view of the finish line.

Iraqis see the finish line, the finish line of freedom and democracy and a functioning nation. We can smell it, taste it, and like a sprinter, one who has broken his legs, but who has a heart full of passion, we will crawl there no matter what the cost. No matter what we must endure, we have realized what we can become, and that is the biggest result of the last two years.

Noone can take that from us. Not the terrorists, not those who want to question the good of the removal of Saddam, not those who want to reduce our glory for politics, none.

We have been brought from darkness to light. And not only has the future been made better for Iraq, but the martyrs of our nation, their blood is watering the roots of democracy across the world. We are watching our neighbors come closer to the light, and this only pushes us more, and makes us stronger in our burning desire to reach the finish line, to realize the dream that our people have had for so long.

No, we will not give up, and we will not say that the last two years were a waste. They for all their trouble have been momentus. They for us, have been a turning point in history. Whether or not you agree, this is how it looks from Iraq.

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That is awesome JW and brought a lump to my throat. There are days when all we have to depend on are philosophical truths and our reason to sustain us. And then we hear from the true freedom fighters and can know with certainty that the goal is a noble one, the possibilities are visible to people other than us, and that yes, if it can be pulled off, it will all have been worth it.

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JW, That's a nice piece, but it's only one person's observations and opinion. Why not get somebody's opinion from Iraq that's against this invasion and occupation?

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georgeob1 wrote:

revel wrote:

stupid article. The facts speak for themselves. We have messed up in the after math of the war, we do have fewer people joining the military than we did in 2000 and we still haven't caught Osma Bin Laden.

I think your selection of the facts that "speak for themselves" is hightly selective and self-serving. The Iraqis are formiong a government involving the Shiites, the Sunnis and the Kurds; the Lebanese have risen up, in the first ever unity anong Moslems and Christians, demanding that the Syrians end their illicit occupation of their country; the Syrians have abandoned their former arrogance and bugged out, tails between their legs; Kadaffi has abandoned his WMD programs and opened his doors for real inspection and verification; Egypt has made, admittedly very tentative, steps toward the toeration of a political opposition; the Palestinians have made their first attempts at the development of a responsible government, as opposed to mere terrorism; and more. Certainly there are risks ahead on all fronts and it would be idle to claim that these long-stanting problems have been finally solved. However we have seen more signs of real, significant progress in the last few months than occurred in the previous two decades.

One of the hallmarks of intelligence is the ability and inclination to observe the unfolding of facts and events and to reassess previously fixed positions and ideas, based on them.

Most of the things you mentioned I have not really followed. It is true that George Bush has shook up the world. It is also true that invasion of Iraq and the removal saddam hussien has freed an oppressed people and has opened the door for freedom which seems to have have a good effect on other Arabic/Muslims countries so far.

On the other hand we have done a lousy job in securing Iraq after we invaded it. Rumsfeild is now blaming Turkey for it saying that if we had been able to come in from the North we would have gotten more of Saddam's men. I don't know anything about military strategy, but I do know this is an admission that we have not succeeded in fighting the insurgency.

We have not succeeded in the reconstruction because we have not succeeded in securing Iraq.

The Kurds and Shiites seem to mired in a showdown that shows no sign of being solved. The entire way the whole thing was set up means that unless there is significant agreement among the parties then nothing will get done. The kurds are asking for a lot more than the Shiites should have to swallow. Why should the Kurds get their own army? We would accept such a thing in our country?

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ican wrote

"The honor of which I write is that which, regardless of the risk, one bestows on oneself for honoring the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of all people who honor the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of all people. "

This is complete garbage ican. A circular argument dressed up in verbosity.

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a second anniversary

and it still isn't pretty over there

Quote:

Insurgent Attacks Flare on a Violent Day in Iraq
By EDWARD WONG

Published: March 20, 2005

BAGHDAD, Iraq, March 20 - Iraqi insurgents ambushed an American military convoy in broad daylight just outside Baghdad today, and American military officials said 24 of the attackers were killed and seven wounded. The unusually bold ambush appeared to be the biggest by insurgents against an American target since the Jan. 30 elections.

Seven American soldiers were wounded in the ambush, in the town of Salman Pak, about 12 miles southeast of the capital, said Capt. Patricia Brewer, a military spokeswoman in Baghdad. At least six people were killed in insurgent attacks elsewhere in Iraq today, including an American soldier.

Details about the Salman Pak ambush were sketchy, but the audacity of the insurgents, on the second anniversary of the American military's campaign that toppled Saddam Hussein, illustrated that the guerrilla war still burns fiercely here, long after President Bush proclaimed major combat operations to be over and despite a high turnout among Iraqis during the Jan. 30 elections.

Salman Pak lies along the Tigris River valley and has been the scene of frequent assaults on American and Iraqi forces. But it is unusual for so many insurgents to be killed in a single firefight.

Right before the elections, Iraqis reported that insurgents armed with Kalashnikovs and rocket-propelled grenades had set up checkpoints along the main road running through the region around Salman Pak and were carefully searching all cars for foreigners or Iraqis believed to be working with foreigners.

Since the fall of the old government, American and Iraqi security forces have failed to secure any of the roads running out of the capital, and insurgents have been able to pull off attacks at will along those thoroughfares.

link

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ican711nm wrote:

Gelisgesti wrote:
... there is no honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that duh

People can't see that because it is not true. It is merely a another falsehood promoted by the liturgy of the perniciously envious.

There is honor in doing the right thing. The honor of which I write is that which, regardless of the risk, one bestows on oneself for honoring the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of all people who honor the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of all people.

Why can't you see that?

Gelisgesti wrote:

ican711nm wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
Lot of these stories around ..... ther isno honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that ... cut and run or stay til the last american....

There is no honor in cutting and running.
There is no honor in fighting until the last American soldier is dead.
There is honor in not succumbing but rather rectifying and overcoming our mistakes and winning our objectives.

Why don't you read what is written ....

there is no honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that

duh

Rellyyou should start wearing your mask at 450000000000 feet .... I dare say it might be a great idea t wear it at your desk from the disjointed stuff you write. Read the post again then tell me how your third scenario is different from 'til the last American'? I don't know what that 'succumbing but rather rectifying and overcoming our mistakes' speech was about, are you running for something? Whatever .... if you read you will see that you greed with my two points and then tried to pin your point on me.
you people are incredible.

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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

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