THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

I see a major problem if we should decide to leave Iraq. It will send a message to the terrorists that we don't have a stomach to stay to fight for what we believe, and it'll give them more motivation in other locations. Keep up the pressure, and we'll leave when it gets too hot.

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CI, oh, we'll be rememberd ........

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"the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."
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Samuel P. Huntington

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Kara wrote:

Quote:
Sort of! The US will attempt to destroy Iran's nuclear weapon development facilities.

Our country has nuclear weapons and is planning a new generation of same.

Why would other countries, seen by us as evil or adversaries, not want defensive nukes to defend themselves against us?

I thought you asked if anyone here thought the US would invade Iran, and did not ask if anyone here thinks that would be justifiable.

I think it is clear that both Iran and North Korea want nukes to defend themselves against us and intimidate others. I also think that there is no such thing as a defensive nuke.

Israel, even while they possessed nukes, destroyed Saddam's nuclear development facility (June 1981), because they feared its products would be used against them. We should and will destroy both Iran's and North Korea's nuclear development facilities for the same reason: we fear their products will be used against us.

I think we currently do not possess the means to mount a successful Iraq-like invasion of either country for the purpose of removing their governments and replacing them with democracies of their people's own design.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

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"the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."
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Samuel P. Huntington

Huntington is wrong about two things. First, the West won only part of the world and not the whole thing. Second, that part of the world won by the West was won both by the superiority of its ideas and "by its superiority in applying organized violence."

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georgeob1 wrote:

...The world is indeed a dangerous place, and we have likely not seen the end of war.

I believe we must (and will) stay the course in Iraq.

Unlike Dyslexia, I believe the war was a good thing, done for the right reasons and carried out reasonably well. History will reveal the the answer in a few decades. Until then we can only argue about it.

I believe the war in Iraq and the establishment of a democracy of the Iraqis own design is necessary but not sufficient to secure all of humanity's "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness."

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Lot of these stories around ..... there is no honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that ... cut and run or stay til the last american....

Quote:

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Gelisgesti wrote:

Lot of these stories around ..... ther isno honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that ... cut and run or stay til the last american....

There is no honor in cutting and running.
There is no honor in fighting until the last American soldier is dead.
There is honor in not succumbing but rather rectifying and overcoming our mistakes and winning our objectives.

Why can't you understand that?

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ican711nm wrote:

Gelisgesti wrote:
Lot of these stories around ..... ther isno honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that ... cut and run or stay til the last american....

There is no honor in cutting and running.
There is no honor in fighting until the last American soldier is dead.
There is honor in not succumbing but rather rectifying and overcoming our mistakes and winning our objectives.

Why don't you read what is written ....

there is no honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that

duh

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I guess you just answerd my question.

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Quote:

Informed Comment

Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion Juan Cole is Professor of History at the University of Michigan
1. Wave of Bombings in Middle East The continued in...
Wave of Bombings in Middle East

The continued instability in the Middle East, which may or may not have been exacerbated by President Bush's interventionism, yielded on Saturday a harvest of deadly bombings in the region.

Qatar was shaken Saturday by a bombing near a theater where British were playing Shakespeare. One British subject was killed, and several people were wounded.

In Lebanon, guerrillas detonated a bomb in the Christian, East Beirut part of the city. The incident raised fears of a renewal of sectarian tensions in that country.

Sunni radicals in Pakistan, who possibly have links to al-Qaeda, blew up a Sufi-Shiite mosque in the Baluchistan city of Quetta.

These bombings were unconnected, and mean something distinctive in eaqch setting. But it soes seem incraeasingly clear that we need to start taking journalists out
Sun, Mar 20, 2005 0:35

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And I thought I knew Bush ..... just goes to show ya Surprised

klik me

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I have went back and forth on the issue of whether we should stay or not. I am now back in the camp that we have no choice but to stay. I guess I changed my mind when I saw that not everyone in Iraq was part of the insurgents and since they were not, it is our duty to stay and at attempt to help them be safe. Although we have done a lousy job to date.

The question is will we have enough man power to sustain a big enough force to even be in Iraq much less all the other trouble spots around the world. What will be left unprotected while we put everything we have in Iraq?

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Gelisgesti wrote:

Why don't you read what is written ....

there is no honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that

duh

Here we see Gel's position in a nutshell. Rolling Eyes

This absurd, clearly Anti-American premise is present in your most every post these days as you live peacefully under the blanket of protection provided by the very people you dishonor with constant derision. Disgusting.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

Gelisgesti wrote:
Why don't you read what is written ....

there is no honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that

duh
Here we see Gel's position in a nutshell. This absurd, clearly Anti-American premise is present in your most every post these days as you live peacefully under the blanket of protection provided by the very people you dishonor with constant derision. Disgusting.

The full quote:

Gelisgesti wrote:

Lot of these stories around ..... there is no honor in whatever we do ... why can't people see that ... cut and run or stay til the last american....

Quote:

I refuse to enter into a dialogue with people that insist they know what other people are thinking or what they intended to write but didn't. There is an inherent dishonesty or a lack of moral code in this practice.
In any event There is nothing to be gained in a discussion since they already know my personal thoughts and motivations.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

There is nothing to be gained in a discussion since they already know my personal thoughts and motivations.

Agreed. You make your personal thoughts and motivations crystal clear.

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I was going to post this outstanding editorial the other day. It now seems more appropriate to this thread than ever.

AMERICA HAS THE WRONG ARMY

America has the wrong Army. I don't know how it happened, but it did. We have the wrong Army. It's too small; it's not deployed properly; it's inadequately trained, and it doesn't have the right sort of logistical support. It's a shambles. I have no idea how those guys even manage to fight.

...I have another revelation for you. We also have the wrong Navy. And if you want to get down to brass tacks, we've got the wrong Air Force, the wrong Marine Corps, and the wrong Coast Guard.

If the Air Force's fighter jets are showing their age, critics will tell us that Air Force leaders are mismanaging their assets, and endangering the safety of their personnel. If the Air Force attempts to procure new fighter jets, they are shopping for toys and that money could be spent better elsewhere. Are you getting the hang of the game yet? It's easy; keeping old planes is the wrong answer, but getting new planes is also the wrong answer. There is no right answer, not ever. Isn't that fun?

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Click the link in the title to read the rest. Timely.

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gel, I agree completly with you and I also agree with the remedy.

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JustWonders wrote:

I was going to post this outstanding editorial the other day. It now seems more appropriate to this thread than ever.

AMERICA HAS THE WRONG ARMY

America has the wrong Army. I don't know how it happened, but it did. We have the wrong Army. It's too small; it's not deployed properly; it's inadequately trained, and it doesn't have the right sort of logistical support. It's a shambles. I have no idea how those guys even manage to fight.

...I have another revelation for you. We also have the wrong Navy. And if you want to get down to brass tacks, we've got the wrong Air Force, the wrong Marine Corps, and the wrong Coast Guard.

If the Air Force's fighter jets are showing their age, critics will tell us that Air Force leaders are mismanaging their assets, and endangering the safety of their personnel. If the Air Force attempts to procure new fighter jets, they are shopping for toys and that money could be spent better elsewhere. Are you getting the hang of the game yet? It's easy; keeping old planes is the wrong answer, but getting new planes is also the wrong answer. There is no right answer, not ever. Isn't that fun?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click the link in the title to read the rest. Timely.

stupid article. The facts speak for themselves. We have messed up in the after math of the war, we do have fewer people joining the military than we did in 2000 and we still haven't caught Osma Bin Laden.

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revel wrote:

stupid article. The facts speak for themselves. We have messed up in the after math of the war, we do have fewer people joining the military than we did in 2000 and we still haven't caught Osma Bin Laden.

I think your selection of the facts that "speak for themselves" is hightly selective and self-serving. The Iraqis are formiong a government involving the Shiites, the Sunnis and the Kurds; the Lebanese have risen up, in the first ever unity anong Moslems and Christians, demanding that the Syrians end their illicit occupation of their country; the Syrians have abandoned their former arrogance and bugged out, tails between their legs; Kadaffi has abandoned his WMD programs and opened his doors for real inspection and verification; Egypt has made, admittedly very tentative, steps toward the toeration of a political opposition; the Palestinians have made their first attempts at the development of a responsible government, as opposed to mere terrorism; and more. Certainly there are risks ahead on all fronts and it would be idle to claim that these long-stanting problems have been finally solved. However we have seen more signs of real, significant progress in the last few months than occurred in the previous two decades.

One of the hallmarks of intelligence is the ability and inclination to observe the unfolding of facts and events and to reassess previously fixed positions and ideas, based on them.

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georgeob, We certainly must give president Bush the credit for the initial motivation of other Muslims/Arabs to seek more freedoms in other countries, but that should be the end of Bush's credits. It's the Muslim/Arab People that should be given the credit (period). No country is changed from inside the white house; they must be done by the people of the country involved.

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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

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