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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 08:17 pm


You're awesome

This is not the first time you have supplied me with a link

Thx Smile
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 08:19 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Now, if only the all the other Muslims in other countries will also denounce Osama, that should being a good backlash that will eventually end his terrorist activities. He can't live forever.


With the bombing at the mosque in Iraq today I doubt they have any other choice.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 09:37 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
There are other "murderous dictators" in this world. We attacked (again) Iraq on false pretenses of WMDs and Saddam's connection to al Qaida to "Protectd the American People" - which was never proven to hold water aftewards.


Ah, but we are discussing Iraq, not some place else.

You said "They think a civil war will ensue in Iraq, because we have destablized it by our preemptive attack."

As though we invaded Norway and it became a destabilized area. It was never stabile and we have added a great stability to the region.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 09:40 pm
Thank God. The tide turns.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 09:45 pm
Quote:
The war on terror is not over, yet it is not endless. We do not know the day of final victory, but we have seen the turning of the tide.


G.W. Bush, May 2, 2003, USS Abraham Lincoln
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 09:59 pm
Quote, "As though we invaded Norway and it became a destabilized area. It was never stabile and we have added a great stability to the region." If that's what you call "stability" in the region, I hope we never experience that in the US.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 10:11 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
There are other "murderous dictators" in this world. We attacked (again) Iraq on false pretenses of WMDs and Saddam's connection to al Qaida to "Protectd the American People" - which was never proven to hold water aftewards.


Why do you keep repeating these lies?

While there are other murderous dictators in the world, not replacing some, because we cannot replace all at the same time is an obviously irrational idea.

President Clinton claimed Saddam's regime possessed ready-to-use WMD. What evidence do you have that President Bush believed otherwise?

The al Qaeda base in northern Iraq was proven to exist by our invading troops.

Colin Powell presented five reasons for invading Iraq. Ready-to-use WMD was the only reason that turned out to be false. Al Qaeda in 2001 did re-establish their base in northern Iraq before our invasion of Afghanistan, and that base did in fact grow subsequent to our invasion of Afghanistan.

Quote:
To the UN, Colin Powell alleged, 2/5/2003:
NEW: www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2003/17300.htm
1. Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network headed by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi an associate and collaborator of Usama bin Laden and his al-Qaida lieutenants.

2. When our coalition ousted the Taliban, the Zarqawi network helped establish another poison and explosive training center camp, and this camp is located in northeastern Iraq. … Those helping to run this camp are Zarqawi lieutenants operating in northern Kurdish areas outside Saddam Hussein's controlled Iraq. But Baghdad has an agent in the most senior levels of the radical organization Ansar al-Islam that controls this corner of Iraq. In 2000, this agent offered al-Qaida safe haven in the region. After we swept al-Qaida from Afghanistan, some of those members accepted this safe haven. They remain there today.

3. We asked a friendly security service to approach Baghdad about extraditing Zarqawi and providing information about him and his close associates. This service contacted Iraqi officials twice and we passed details that should have made it easy to find Zarqawi. The network remains in Baghdad. Zarqawi still remains at large, to come and go.


The Bush administration advocated invading Iraq for the following five principal reasons:
1. Iraq has not disarmed as the UN demanded;
2. Saddam Hussein and his regime are concealing their efforts to produce ready-to-use WMD;
3. Iraq is harboring members of the al Qaeda confederation;
4. Three times in 2002 –2003, the US requested Saddam Hussein to remove Zarqawi, a leader of the AaI al Qaeda (i.e., Ansar an Islam al Qaeda) encamped in northern Iraq.
5. Saddam Hussein purposely perpetrates cruelty to his own citizens and neighbors.

Whether you believe all these reasons or not is beside the point. These were infact among the reasons given by President Bush and his administration for invading Iraq.

All but one of these reasons (No. 2) was proven true. The horrible magnitude of reason No. 5 continues to be discovered by our military forces in Iraq to be larger than any previous estimate.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 10:14 pm
Clinton was prez until Jan 2000. Bush was the prez when we invaded Iraq with the claim that Saddam had WMDs. One thing funny about time; what was apparent last year may no longer be this year. Funny thing about time; facts don't follow like we want them to.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 10:16 pm
ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
There are other "murderous dictators" in this world. We attacked (again) Iraq on false pretenses of WMDs and Saddam's connection to al Qaida to "Protectd the American People" - which was never proven to hold water aftewards.


Why do you keep repeating these lies?


What's the lie, ican?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 10:22 pm
old europe wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
There are other "murderous dictators" in this world. We attacked (again) Iraq on false pretenses of WMDs and Saddam's connection to al Qaida to "Protectd the American People" - which was never proven to hold water aftewards.


Why do you keep repeating these lies?


What's the lie, ican?


The lies are emphasized here in boldface by me.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 10:23 pm
By CNN.COM: "


Is lying about the reason for a war an impeachable offense?
By John W. Dean
FindLaw Columnist
Special to CNN.com
Friday, June 6, 2003 Posted: 5:17 PM EDT (2117 GMT)

LAW DICTIONARY

(FindLaw) -- President George W. Bush has got a very serious problem. Before asking Congress for a joint resolution authorizing the use of U.S. military forces in Iraq, he made a number of unequivocal statements about the reason the United States needed to pursue the most radical actions any nation can undertake -- acts of war against another nation.

Now it is clear that many of his statements appear to be false. In the past, Bush's White House has been very good at sweeping ugly issues like this under the carpet, and out of sight. But it is not clear that they will be able to make the question of what happened to Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) go away -- unless, perhaps, they start another war.

That seems unlikely. Until the questions surrounding the Iraqi war are answered, Congress and the public may strongly resist more of President Bush's warmaking.

Presidential statements, particularly on matters of national security, are held to an expectation of the highest standard of truthfulness. A president cannot stretch, twist or distort facts and get away with it. President Lyndon Johnson's distortions of the truth about Vietnam forced him to stand down from reelection. President Richard Nixon's false statements about Watergate forced his resignation.

Frankly, I hope the WMDs are found, for it will end the matter. Clearly, the story of the missing WMDs is far from over. And it is too early, of course, to draw conclusions. But it is not too early to explore the relevant issues.

President Bush's statements on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction
Readers may not recall exactly what President Bush said about weapons of mass destruction; I certainly didn't. Thus, I have compiled these statements below. In reviewing them, I saw that he had, indeed, been as explicit and declarative as I had recalled.

Bush's statements, in chronological order, were:

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."

United Nations address, September 12, 2002


"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."

Radio address, October 5, 2002


"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."

"We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."

"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" -- his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."

Cincinnati, Ohio speech, October 7, 2002


"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."

State of the Union Address, January 28, 2003


"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

Address to the nation, March 17, 2003
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 10:25 pm
ican711nm wrote:
old europe wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
There are other "murderous dictators" in this world. We attacked (again) Iraq on false pretenses of WMDs and Saddam's connection to al Qaida to "Protectd the American People" - which was never proven to hold water aftewards.


Why do you keep repeating these lies?


What's the lie, ican?


The lies are emphasized here in boldface by me.


But the US attacked. On false pretenses. Of WMD. And a connection of Saddam to Al Qaeda.
And it was never proven to hold water afterwards.

But we talk about the "protection of the American people", if you want....
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 10:25 pm
Who's lying again?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 10:25 pm
RexRed wrote:


You're awesome

This is not the first time you have supplied me with a link

Thx Smile


An excerpt from JustWonders' link:
Quote:
Spain Muslims Issue Fatwa Against Bin Laden

MADRID, Spain (AP) -- Muslim clerics in Spain issued what they called the world's first fatwa, or Islamic edict, against Osama bin Laden on Thursday, the first anniversary of the Madrid train bombings, calling him an apostate and urging others of their faith to denounce the al-Qaida leader.

The ruling was issued by the Islamic Commission of Spain, the main body representing the country's 1 million-member Muslim community. The commission represents 200 or so mostly Sunni mosques, or about 70 percent of all mosques in Spain.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 10:26 pm
I'm glad the European Muslims are so smart....!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 10:52 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Who's lying again?

I think you are repeating the lies of whoever it was who first claimed to know that President Bush didn't believe what he said he believed.

Quote:
The Constitution of the United States of America
Effective as of March 4, 1789
...
Article II
...
Section 4. The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.
...


Let me know when you think you have enough evidence to prove President Bush did not believe the reasons for invading Iraq that Powell presented to the UN, and Bush presented to the Nation and the Congress prior to the US invasion of Iraq.

If you can prove that Bush did not believe the reasons he gave, then you owe it to the American people to present that evidence. If it is true, that would easily constitute at least a "high crime." If you don't have such evidence, then I think you are guilty of repeating another person's or persons' libel or slander.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 10:56 pm
Quote:
"He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."


24 Feb 2001
Secretary of State Colin Powell in Cairo


But, of course, that was before 9/11....
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 11:00 pm
"Did not believe?" NOw, how the fxxx you gonna prove that? All we know is that 1) we had UN weapon's inspectors looking for those weapons when Bush forced them our of Iraq, 2) Bush said "Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past." Colin Powell even showed those photographs to the UN Security Council, and claimed we knew the location of those weapons, 3) he continued to REPEAT THOSE LIES when the intelligence community insisted that the information was weak and unreliable, because they have not been independently reconfirmed by our intel, and 4) he lied to congress. Senator Diane Feinstein said they were lied to; that most of the Democrats who voted for war would not have done so if they did not hear those lies.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 04:31 am
Ican, you wrote in boldface type:-

The lies are emphasized here in boldface by me.

So presumably as its in boldface, that was a lie. That means the lies were not emphasised or you didn't emphasise them. Or it was one of those funny sentences with a built in logical paradox, e.g. "I always lie".

Do you always lie? And if so, how do we know?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 05:43 am
old europe wrote:
I'm glad the European Muslims are so smart....!


I agree completely, I read the article yesterday and it gave me a lot of hope.
0 Replies
 
 

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