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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 04:18 pm
Quote:
Well, to quote my good friend Frank... "Bush owns you!!!"


Once Bush has been out of office for four years, and I keep talking about him, then you can make the quote and be accurate.

You do understand what 'ownage,' sometimes written as 'pwnage,' means, don't you? lol

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 04:54 pm
Quote:
Baghdad Burning

... I'll meet you 'round the bend my friend, where hearts can heal and souls can mend...
Tuesday, March 08, 2005

You want a rabbit?
We are relieved the Italian journalist was set free. I, personally, was very happy. Iraqis are getting abducted these days by the dozen, but it still says something else about the country when foreigners are abducted. Iraqis have a fierce sense of hospitality that can border on the obnoxious sometimes. When people come to our houses, we insist they have something to drink and then we insist they stay for whatever meal is coming- even if its four hours away. We cringe when journalists and aide workers are abducted because it gives us the sense that we're bad hosts.

People are always wondering why they abduct journalists, and other innocents. I think its because the lines are all blurred right now. It's difficult to tell who is who. Who is a journalist, for example, and who is foreign intelligence? Who is a mercenary and who is an aide worker? People are somewhat more reluctant to talk to foreigners than they were at the beginning.

The irony of the situation lay in the fact that Sgrena was probably safer with her abductors than she was with American troops. It didn't come as a surprise to hear her car was fired at. Was it done on purpose? It's hard to tell. I can't think why they would want to execute Giuliana Sgrena and her entourage, but then on the other hand, I can't think how it could have possibly happened that they managed to fire that many rounds at a car carrying Italian intelligence officers and a journalist (usually they save those rounds for Iraqi families in cars).

There really is no good excuse for what happened. I've been racking my brain trying to figure out what the Pentagon will say short of an admission that it was either on purpose or that the soldiers who fired at the car were drunk or high on somethingĀ…

I have a feeling it will be the usual excuse, "The soldiers who almost killed the journalist were really, really frightened. They've been under lots of pressure." But see, Iraqis are frightened and under pressure too- we don't go around accidentally killing people. We're expected to be very level-headed and sane in the face of chaos.

I wager that this little incident will be shoved aside with one of those silly Pentagon apologies that don't really sound like apologies, you know: "It was an unfortunate incident, but Sgrena shouldn't have been in Iraq in the first place. Journalists should stay safely in their own countries and listen for our daily military statements telling them democracy is flourishing and Iraqis are happy."

I don't understand why Americans are so shocked with this incident. Where is the shock? That Sgrena's car was under fire? That Americans killed an Italian security agent? After everything that occurred in Iraq- Abu Ghraib, beatings, torture, people detained for months and months, the stealing, the rapeĀ… is this latest so very shocking? Or is it shocking because the victims weren't Iraqi?

I'm really glad she's home safe but at the same time, the whole situation is somewhat painful. It hurts because thousands of Iraqis have died at American checkpoints or face to face with a tank or Apache and beyond the occasional subtitle on some obscure news channel, no one knows about it and no one cares. It just hurts a little bit.

The event of the week occurred last Wednesday and I was surprised it wasn't covered by Western press. It's not that big a deal, but it enraged people in Baghdad and it can also give a better picture of what has been going on with our *heroic* National Guard. There was an explosion on Wednesday in Baghdad and the wounded were all taken to Yarmuk Hospital, one of the larger hospitals in Baghdad. The number of wounded were around 30- most of them National Guard. In the hospital, it was chaos- patients wounded in this latest explosion, patients from other explosions and various patients from gunshot wounds, etc. The doctors were running around everywhere, trying to be in four different places at once.

Apparently, there weren't enough beds. Many of the wounded were in the hallways and outside of the rooms. The stories vary. One doctor told me that some of the National Guard began screaming at the doctors, telling them to ignore the civilians and tend to the wounds of the Guard. A nurse said that the National Guard who weren't wounded began pulling civilians out of the beds and replacing them with wounded National Guard. The gist of it is generally the same; the doctors refused the idea of not treating civilians and preferring the National Guard over them and suddenly a fight broke out. The doctors threatened a strike if the National Guard began pulling the civilians out of beds.

The National Guard decided the solution to the crisis would be the following- they'd gather up some of the doctors and nurses and beat them in front of the patients. So several doctors were rounded up and attacked by several National Guard (someone said there was liberal use of electric batons and the butts of some Klashnikovs).

The doctors decided to go on strike.

It's difficult to consider National Guardsmen as heroes with the image of them beating doctors in white gowns in ones head. It's difficult to see them as anything other than expendable Iraqis with their main mission being securing areas and cities for Americans.

It seems that Da'awa Party's Jaffari is going to be the Prime Minister and Talbani is going to get the decorative position of president. It has been looking like this since the elections. There is talk of giving our token Sunni Ghazi Al Yawir some high-profile position like National Assembly spokesperson. The gesture is meant to appease the Sunni masses but it isn't going to do that because it's not about Sunnis and Shia. It's about occupation and Vichy governments. They all look the same to us.

What it seems policy makers in America don't get, and what I suspect many Americans themselves *do* get, is that millions of Iraqis feel completely detached from the current people in power. If you don't have an alliance with one of the political parties (ie under their protection or on their payroll) then it's difficult to feel any affinity with people like Jaffari, Allawi, Talbani, etc. We watch them on television, tight-lipped and shifty-eyed after a meeting where they quarreled about Kirkuk or Sharia in the constitution and it feels like what I imagine an out-of-body experience should feel like.

In spite of elections, they still feel like puppets. But now, they are high-tech puppets. They were upgraded from your ordinary string puppets to those life-like, battery-powered, talking puppets. It's almost like we're doing that whole rotating president thing Bremer did in 2003 all over again. The same faces are getting tedious. The old Iraqi saying sums it up nicely, "Tireed erneb- ukhuth erneb. Tireed ghazal- ukhuth erneb." The translation for this is, "You want a rabbit? Take a rabbit. You want a deer? Take a rabbit."

Except we didn't get any rabbits- we just got an assortment of snakes, weasels and hyenas.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 11:10 pm
Baghdad rocked by 'suicide blast'

A plume of acrid black smoke hung over central Baghdad
An explosion in the Iraqi capital Baghdad has shaken buildings and covered the area in a pall of smoke.
Reports quoting police sources say a suicide bomber blew up a garbage truck close to the ministry of agriculture and several hotels in the city centre.

At least one person died and 10 others were wounded in the blast. Volleys of automatic gunfire were heard before and after the explosion.

Suicide bombings are a tactic often employed by Iraqi insurgents.

The ministry building caught fire after the blast, but police said the main target of the blast may have been the nearby hotels, which are used by Iraqi police for training.

The BBC's Jim Muir in Baghdad says the feeling in Iraq is that the tempo of insurgent attacks against the US-backed authorities is rising again after a lull during February in the wake of elections.

The political process in Iraq is currently stagnant during efforts to form a government, our correspondent adds, allowing insurgents the opportunity to renew attacks.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 07:13 am
Quote:
Wed, 09 Mar 2005

IRAQ
US soldiers made DVD of abuses
Posted Wed, 09 Mar 2005

US soldiers abused at least one wounded prisoner in Iraq and showed disrespect to dead Iraqis as well as Iraqi civilians, according to a video made public on Monday.

The nearly 27-minute long video, dubbed "Ramadi Madness", was made early last year by members of the Florida National Guard who served in Iraq as part of the 124th Infantry Regiment and was investigated by the US military as part of its probe of alleged abuses committed by American troops in Iraq.

Results of the army's investigation of events contained in the video were unveiled by the Pentagon on Friday, with documents showing the military had decided not to bring any charges against the soldiers because they had displayed "inappropriate rather than criminal behaviour".

The video itself was not released at the time but it was obtained by The Palm Beach Post and displayed on its website on Monday.

Iraqi detainees held at gunpoint

One of the scenes displays wounded Iraqi detainees held at gunpoint by a US soldier.

The Iraqi man is moaning from obvious pain while the soldier looks at the camera and says: "This (expletive) shot at me."

The soldier then proceeds to kick the wounded man.

Another detainee is shown shirtless, with "b2-2" scrawled on his back in black marker.

The video shows another captured Iraqi being treated for a head wound while a voice off-screen tells him to "smile for the camera".

"Bad guy, bad guy, bad guy"

In another scene, the camera focused on a line of detainees, their hands tied with plastic handcuffs behind their backs, as an off-screen voice says: "Bad guy, bad guy, bad guy."

The film also shows soldiers of the same unit trying to examine an idled truck during the night.

They discover that its Iraqi driver has been shot and killed.

One of the soldiers moves the driver's hand and says, "Hold on, I'm going to make him say 'hi'."

Grisly footage

The video contains grisly footage of burned and dismembered bodies on the pavement following a massive explosion.

A soldier points to some remains and pokes them with his foot.

Some voices, belonging to soldiers who cannot be seen, exclaim: "Oh, that's part of his skull."

US troops are also shown riding through an Iraqi village honking their horn and shouting at Iraqis: "Get out of the way, we're trying to drive here!"

Anthony Romero, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said the new documents underscore the need for an independent special counsel and congressional hearings to investigate the abuses.

"Pieces of the puzzle are still missing. An outside special counsel is the only way to ensure that all civilians who violated, or conspired to violate the laws are held responsible for their crimes," Romero said in a statement.

AFP


Video ......(Quicktime required)
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 07:15 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Well, to quote my good friend Frank... "Bush owns you!!!"


Once Bush has been out of office for four years, and I keep talking about him, then you can make the quote and be accurate.

You do understand what 'ownage,' sometimes written as 'pwnage,' means, don't you? lol

Cycloptichorn


When this present Bush gets out of office I will gladly give up talking about him even if it means letting whoever takes his place get all the blame for all of Bush's actions and decisions that he set in motion. Having him gone would be worth anything at all. I am just thanking the good the Lord we do not yet have endless Presidents.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 07:16 am
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=IK1P043IZXSCKCRBAEKSFFA?type=topNews&storyID=7850248

Bomb Hits Baghdad After Headless Bodies Found
Wed Mar 9, 2005 06:46 AM ET

By Elizabeth Piper
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A suicide bomber in a garbage truck packed with explosives killed two policemen near a Baghdad hotel Wednesday and police found 41 corpses, shot or decapitated, in the heartland of Iraq's insurgency.

Al Qaeda's wing in Iraq, led by Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, said it carried out the Baghdad attack that wounded at least 20 others -- part of its relentless campaign to bring down the government and drive out U.S. troops.

The killings of the 41, some found in Qaim near the Syrian border and other south of Baghdad in what has become known as the "triangle of death," bore the marks of the insurgency -- some were shot in the back of the head, others beheaded.

Mainly Sunni insurgents have kept up a campaign of suicide attacks, car bombings and execution-style killings, denting Iraqi and U.S. officials' hopes that Iraq's landmark Jan. 30 elections would help stabilize the country.

Their ranks have been boosted by frustration at the U.S. occupation, a growing number of shootings of Iraqi civilians and by abuse of prisoners in U.S.-manned jails.

"Our brother Karim ibn al-Karim bin al-Karim, along with a group of mujahideen, targeted ... what should be called the hotel of the Jews because it is their safe haven and stronghold," Al Qaeda Organization for Holy War in Iraq said in a statement posted on an Islamist Web site.

"The mujahideen opened fire on the police and guards protecting the Jews and when the entrance was clear, the hero ... blew up the infidels," the group said, adding that the attack was timed to avoid harming any Muslim passers-by.

Huge plumes of thick smoke blackened the Baghdad sky as police, ambulances and fire engines rushed to the scene, their sirens piercing the early morning calm.

Hospital officials said two policemen were killed and dozens of others taken to hospital for treatment.

BODIES FOUND

In Qaim, 500 km (310 miles) west of Baghdad, the bodies of 26 people, including one woman, were found. A hospital doctor said the victims, in civilian clothes, had been shot two days ago.

Fifteen bodies -- some shot, others beheaded -- were found just south of Baghdad in the Sunni-dominated area now known as the "triangle of death," Iraqi army sources said.

In the southern city of Basra, a roadside bomb in the southern city of Basra killed one policeman, police said.

Insurgents have vowed to push their campaign until U.S. forces have left, trying to capitalize on the anger of many Iraqis who have become frustrated at what they say is daily harassment by U.S. soldiers.

Controversy over U.S. tactics in Iraq has been stoked by the fatal shooting of an Italian secret agent during a hostage rescue, and the accidental killing of a Bulgarian soldier.

An American general said Tuesday the U.S. military was investigating procedures at the often tense military checkpoints as part of a probe into the intelligence officer's killing.

Italy's Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini earlier rejected a U.S. account of how its forces killed the agent last Friday after he rescued a journalist held hostage in Iraq.

Agent Nicola Calipari died shielding reporter Giuliana Sgrena from U.S. gunfire as they drove to Baghdad airport.

The U.S. military has said its soldiers fired after the Italians' car approached a checkpoint at speed and failed to heed signals to slow down. But Fini said the team had been driving slowly and received no warning.

Bulgaria, a U.S. ally which has 430 troops in Iraq, has also accused U.S. troops of accidentally killing a Bulgarian soldier and demanded a full investigation.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 07:18 am
It seems my link don't work but it probably can be found almost anywhere at all.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:00 am
Six photos of the car Sgrena and Calipari were shot in from La Republica. See the 400 bullet holes?

http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/1.html
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:06 am
The photo and that link are identical to the previous posted ones - so nothing new within the last 24 hours, I think.

Btw: from where did you get that there where 400 holes IN the car? (You all must have heard/read a different version of what the foreign minister said.)
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:46 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Or perhaps you could take solace in knowing there is a lot of good news that never gets reported.


I'll relate a story for ya as to exactly why I agree with this in part, but partly not.

A good friend of mine named Travis recently got back from Iraq. He's not the same anymore; where he used to be loud and blustery, he is quiet and contemplative. He was there for almost two years.

The changes in my pal aren't all bad; I feel that he is much more serious and mature than when he left. The positive experiences that he had over there are things that he can carry with him, and build off of, his whole life. For example, he recounted a little tale about how one day, his unit was working on repairing a school which had been damaged during the fighting, and one of the Iraqi gentlemen that was working with them invited him home for dinner in broken English.

He said that they ate a bunch of wierd food, and noone could talk to him right but they kept trying in what he described as the 'worst, funniest english you ever heard.' Apparently they had a great time. Travis said that the meal, and the people, were fantastic.

I didn't ask him a bunch of questions about the bad stuff he'd seen/done; I mean, who wants to pester their buddy to recount bad memories? But he had a lot to say about the feeling of fear that pervaded many of the Army soldiers he dealt with. The IED bombs strike anywhere, a patrol he was on was hit though he himself wasn't hurt. He said ya never know when your number was going to come up, and in some soldiers (like him) this lead to sort of an existential state of peace; others dealt with it in worse ways.

We didn't talk about the fighting part of it other than for him to say that he thought he shot a guy, but couldn't be sure. He said that was the part that bugged him; he couldn't be sure if he killed a guy or not.

I think there are massively good things happening in Iraq, b/c most of our soldiers want to help while they are there. I think there are also massively bad things happening in Iraq, b/c it's a war zone. I suspect all war zones are basically the same when it comes to abuses and injustices; there are a sh*t ton of them. But now that they are in the public eye....

I am cheering for America to win this fight, and by win I mean stabilize Iraq and get the hell out. I don't know if it will happen or not. I guess I feel the worst for the US troops who are just trying to do a good job. I asked my buddy if he's going to go back to Iraq and he didn't know. He was pretty pissed off about the way the Army kept him in a lot longer than he was supposed to be in; he said a lot of people were pissed about that.

Hopefully in a year I can look back on the archive of this post and see that everything went well over the last year; but, honestly, I doubt it...

Cycloptichorn


Bravo! Top rate story!
Thx
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 10:14 am
revel wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Well, to quote my good friend Frank... "Bush owns you!!!"


Once Bush has been out of office for four years, and I keep talking about him, then you can make the quote and be accurate.

You do understand what 'ownage,' sometimes written as 'pwnage,' means, don't you? lol

Cycloptichorn


When this present Bush gets out of office I will gladly give up talking about him even if it means letting whoever takes his place get all the blame for all of Bush's actions and decisions that he set in motion. Having him gone would be worth anything at all. I am just thanking the good the Lord we do not yet have endless Presidents.


You wrote:
"Having him gone would be worth anything at all."

Comment:
Most "loyal" Americans have a limit...

Yes, like the dems and commies sympathizing with the terrorists who would just as soon saw their heads off. They don't get it, that terrorists hate democrats more than they hate repubs... The first thing that Saddam did when he got into power was kill all of the democrats off by firing squad. Yet, dems would still rather be part of the problem then join in and help the majority of their fellow countrymen rid the world of this scourge of terror...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 10:27 am
So you suggest, RexRed, exactly what to do with your main ally, the British?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 10:29 am
Quote:
Yes, like the dems and commies sympathizing with the terrorists who would just as soon saw their heads off. They don't get it, that terrorists hate democrats more than they hate repubs... The first thing that Saddam did when he got into power was kill all of the democrats off by firing squad.


Rex,

you seem nice; yet disconnected from reality. I mean, where do you come up with this? Can you link to sourcing on this? Did someone tell you that Saddam killed all the Democrats in Iraq? Do you think that the terrorists and Saddam are the same, or even have anything to do with one another?

Seriously.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 10:40 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
So you suggest, RexRed, exactly what to do with your main ally, the British?


I am not really sure how your question relates to my last comment.

I will continue... the democrats have four more years to try and make this war blow up in George's face and our own, and of course help cut off our sacrifices in the middle east and elsewhere, for democracy, if possible... all out of partisan hatred and I guess idiocy. Then where will the dems be? They will not have gas for the car to go out and pick up crack for their kids? Dean is against the war? Look how many dems love him! He can write them a prescription for something real strong... But it can make one feel faint... ask Hillary.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 10:45 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Yes, like the dems and commies sympathizing with the terrorists who would just as soon saw their heads off. They don't get it, that terrorists hate democrats more than they hate repubs... The first thing that Saddam did when he got into power was kill all of the democrats off by firing squad.


Rex,

you seem nice; yet disconnected from reality. I mean, where do you come up with this? Can you link to sourcing on this? Did someone tell you that Saddam killed all the Democrats in Iraq? Do you think that the terrorists and Saddam are the same, or even have anything to do with one another?

Seriously.

Cycloptichorn


First it is the shock value that I go for, and in that is the proof of it's accuracy.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 10:49 am
Quote:
First it is the shock value that I go for, and in that is the proof of it's accuracy.


You are incorrect.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 10:53 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
First it is the shock value that I go for, and in that is the proof of it's accuracy.


You are incorrect.

Cycloptichorn


So are you saying that Saddam shot the repubs? Give me your reasoning on this.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 10:53 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I mean, where do you come up with this? Can you link to sourcing on this? Did someone tell you that Saddam killed all the Democrats in Iraq? Do you think that the terrorists and Saddam are the same, or even have anything to do with one another? Cycloptichorn

Why the double standard, Cyclo? You repeatedly express your undeclared opinion by making disparaging declarations about the Bush administration without even the pretense of offering some evidence to support such declarations. Why then do you demand that RexRed do that which you yourself don't do. RexRed too was merely expressing his opinion?

Here's my opinion. You pretend to a moral conduct you yourself do not exhibit.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 11:05 am
If I have overstepped some sort of etiquette that I did not realize in this post then I am sorry. I have read most of the entire post so I am not in the dark on what is being said. I will try and more clearly designate when I am speaking from my own opinion or quoting something I have read somewhere else so there is no such confusion. Don't be surprised if I might answer you and say I read it in "God's" newspaper. I do it only to boggle and shock. Smile

Some things you just know, yet some still deny...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 11:12 am
Quote:
So are you saying that Saddam shot the repubs? Give me your reasoning on this.


Our terms 'Republican' and 'Democrat' don't transalate to Iraq at all. Therefore, you can't say that he shot all of one or the other; there aren't any republicans or democrats in Iraq as far as we use the term (other than the ones we sent there).

Ican't:
Quote:
Why the double standard, Cyclo? You repeatedly express your undeclared opinion by making disparaging declarations about the Bush administration without even the pretense of offering some evidence to support such declarations. Why then do you demand that RexRed do that which you yourself don't do. RexRed too was merely expressing his opinion?

Here's my opinion. You pretend to a moral conduct you yourself do not exhibit.


My disparaging declarations against the administration have a large body of evidence behind them. I'm by far not the only one who feels that we are being controlled by thugs and thieves.

This is quite a different example than saying 'Saddam shot all the Democrats.' I can say that Bush is a liar and show you reams of evidence that he and his people lie constantly for their own gain; you can disagree if you want; but you could never show that Saddam shot or didn't shoot all the Democrats, as the concept of our Democratic party doesn't transalate to Iraq. It doesn't make any sense.

Your argument would be valid if I claimed that Bush rounded up and shot all the baathists here in America that were against him... wait a minute; you are so far out of touch with reality, I don't even know why I'm bothering to answer you, as I'm sure it will lead to a post full of infers and probably and assumptions and other odd tactics you fall back upon when your argument is shot; and I don't have time to waste on it today, sorry Smile

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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