THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

Then you have removed yourself from reality; because you know in your heart, that in the massive FUBAR'ed zone that is Iraq, this has happened over, and over, and over again, simply from a statistical point of view.

The fact that you choose not to face the facts that our troops are no more noble or great than anyone else's, Fox, is hardly surprising; you've displayed many times on A2K that facts don't matter as much as your beliefs.

Truly a sickening event, on a sad day. Let's add it to the growing list of sickening, regrettable events that have taken place since we invaded Iraq.

Cycloptichorn

We don't like good news - as some posters on this thread would have you believe.
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Unexpected Whiff of Freedom Proves Bracing for the Mideast
By NEIL MacFARQUHAR

Published: March 6, 2005


CAIRO, March 5 - The leaders of about half of Egypt's rickety opposition parties sat down for one of their regular meetings this week under completely irregular circumstances. In the previous few days, President Hosni Mubarak opened presidential elections to more than one candidate, and street demonstrators helped topple Lebanon's government.

The mood around the table in a battered downtown Cairo office veered between humor and trepidation, participants said, as they faced the daunting prospect of fielding presidential candidates in just 75 days. "This is all totally new, and nobody is ready," said Mahmoud Abaza, the deputy leader of the Wafd Party, one of Egypt's few viable opposition groups. "Sometimes even if you don't know how to swim you just have to dive into the water and manage. Political life will change fundamentally."

The entire Middle East seems to be entering uncharted political and social territory with a similar mixture of anticipation and dread. Events in Lebanon and Egypt, following closely on a limited vote for municipal councils in Saudi Arabia and landmark elections in Iraq, as well as the Palestinian territories, all combined to give the sense, however tentative, that twilight might be descending on authoritarian Arab governments.

A combination of outside pressure and internal shifts have merged to create this unique moment. Arabs of a younger, more savvy generation appear more willing to take their dissatisfaction directly to the front stoop of repressive leaders.

They have been spurred by the rise of new technology, especially uncensored satellite television, which prevents Arab governments from hiding what is happening on their own streets. The Internet and mobile phones have also been deployed to erode government censorship and help activists mobilize in ways previous generations never could.

Another important factor, pressure from the Bush administration, emboldens demonstrators, who believe that their governments will be more hesitant to act against them with Washington linking its security to greater freedom after the Sept. 11 attacks. Washington says it will no longer support repressive governments, and young Arabs, while hardly enamored of American policy in the region, want to test that promise.

Egypt's tiny opposition movement - called Kifaya, or Enough in Arabic, in reference to Mr. Mubarak's 24-year tenure - has drawn attention across the region even if the police easily outnumber the few hundred demonstrators who gather periodically outside courthouses or syndicate offices to bellow their trademark slogan. Before, protesters used to exploit solidarity demonstrations with the Palestinians to shout a few abusive slogans against Mr. Mubarak. Suddenly, they are beaming their frustration right at him.

"Everything happening is taking place in one context, the bankruptcy of the authoritarian regimes and their rejection by the Arab people," said Michel Kilo, a rare political activist in Damascus. "Democracy is being born and the current authoritarianism is dying."

Even so, the changes wrought in each country thus far appear minor and preliminary, even if the idea of challenging authoritarian rule more directly is remarkably new.

In Egypt, nobody expects anyone but Mr. Mubarak to win another six-year term this fall. Old rules against basic freedoms like the right to assemble, essential for a campaign, remain unaltered.

The al-Saud clan in Saudi Arabia has not ceded any real power in letting men, but no women, vote for only half the members of the country's nearly 200 councils.

"Congratulations and More Power," read a computer printout staffers hung on the wall of the office of Tarek O. al-Kasabi, the chairman of a prominent Riyadh hospital, after he won one of seven city council seats.

"People want to enlarge the decision-making process, which is a good and healthy thing," said Mr. Kasabi, a civil engineer by training, noting that he would rather move slowly than see the country destabilized. "We know how to reform better than anyone else. It is our life; nobody from outside can dictate how we live."

In Lebanon, young demonstrators with gelled hair or bare midriffs serve as an unlikely model for popular uprisings across the Arab world, especially since their goals do not quite apply elsewhere.

This, while the Bush administration continues to pay women 78 percent of what men earns. Nothing like equality in Egypt.

Calipari will be given a state funeral on Monday.
And today, Italy's president awarded him posthum the gold medal of valor for his heroism.

According to media (here: South African News24 (link), the shooting late on Friday was overheard by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's office, which was on the phone with one of the secret service agents, said Scolari [companion of freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena]. "Then the US military silenced the cellphones," he charged.

"The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home.

"They were 700m from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints."

Quote, "Then the US military silenced the cellphones," he charged. I'm not sure how this administration is gonna win friends and influence people for the foreseeable future. Do you?

Well, c.i., I don't know if all that is really true - althought is been broadcasted/published now since 6 hours in various languages/countries.

And you automatically believe the report which gives not one quote, not one instance of what the other side says--willing to believe the worse with no qualification. Amazing. And some wonder why some of us think the left is anti-military to the point of making it much more dangerous for the military in a war zone.

No, I don't believe that, Foxfyre. You obviously frequently missinterpret my posting.



I'd really like that you post the other quotes, and not just only refer to them.

re 'the left': Italy's media and government are really quite on the right, even in US-American eyes.

Fox, For whatever it's worth, when the Italian media and others cover this news, most peope are gonna have negative reactions to what they read - whether you like it or not. Public perception is very powerful in this world - believe it not. Whether it's right or wrong won't matter much if the truth doesn't come out - soon.

I don't care what the anti[war Italians say C.I. The news reports show them taking to the streets making the most possible out of this to show how evil we Americans are. I posted earlier that the Italians are no doubt initially very angry. We would be too if one of ours was killed under similar circumstances. And of course our anti-war people would make political hay out of it too. I am sorry that the Italian leaders are catching more hell over it because they truly have tried to do the right thing through all this.

My quarrel, however, is with Americans who are more than willing to believe on the sketchiest of information that our military was in the wrong. I seem to be the lone voice giving any credit or possibility that our people acted properly. If their version is correct, they did. If it turns out they didn't, they will be prosecuted. But until there is any evidence that they acted improperly, I don't give a flying fig what the anti-war people want to make out of it and will give our troops the benefit of the doubt.

Fox, Your presumption of innocence of our soldiers will not fly; not today and surely not tomorrow. No military of any country is sqeaky clean of atrocities, and that includes the US.

With the current alligations of widespread rape by UN "peace keepers". Them, fathering and abandoning aids infected children throughout the world. What do we expect these UN "peace keepers" to teach the Iraqis when they "train" them? Is this trading one evil for another? I think the Iraqis deserve better. There needs to be more clarity on UN protocols for this kind of misconduct.

Certainly the Coalition Forces assigned to the Multi-National Force-Iraq might have acted correctly by shooting at this car and killing that agent.

Now again my previous question: from where did you guess that I belieb´ve these reports?

And could you please post one quote, one instance of what the other side says?
(Besides: "At approximately 8:55 p.m. on March 4, Coalition Forces assigned to the Multi-National Force-Iraq fired on a vehicle that was approaching a Coalition checkpoint in Baghdad at a high rate of speed. The recently freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was an occupant in the vehicle and was apparently injured. It appears a second person in the automobile was killed. Ms. Sgrena is being treated by Coalition Force medical personnel. The incident is under investigation and additional details will be provided when they become available.")

Walter you gave no indication you were not in sympathy with those criticizing the American troops and you are posting the same criticisms and as much as said you wanted to hear what those in the car said before making up your mind. If you think the American troops acted properly, all you have to do is say so. So far you haven't.

As far as the rest of you ready to condemn them, well I expected no better I guess. I don't know why I am continually frustrated and disappointed over stuff like this.

Which UN peace keeping are or are going to teach/train the Iraquis?

Is it possible that you are mixing up some different news?

Just type in a search for the two words UN and Rape on the internet and you will find articles like this.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/09/27/255.html

http://www.global-conspiracies.com/un_troops_accused_of_systematic_rape_in_sierra_leone.htm

To Walter: One correction. You did say this:


Thank you for that. THat's all I ask--benefit of the doubt.

I infer from this post that you presume our soldiers are guilty. Exactly of what do you presume them guilty.

Foxfyre has repeatedly stated she presumes the soldiers are innocent of intentionally firing on the vehicle without adequate cause to do so. Do you presume the soldiers guilty of intentionally firing on the vehicle without adequate cause to do so?

RexRed

And how do you get by those sources that UN peacekeepers are or will train/teach in Iraq?

Until now, I haven't heard at all about a UN mandate there.