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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 09:31 am
McGentrix wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
I gave it previously.

Now I am waiting to see if Walter will give his impressions.

Why wouldn't you be as equally curious Geli?
I thought Walter answered when he said he was in the navy .... if you are recieving and returning fire, that would, in my mind, constitute major combat. How is it not?


I am referring to this post.

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, the published an esssay I wrote about military terminology, some years ago in the Navy's magazine. :wink:


Walter says he is a published author on military terminology, but now seems tentative about discussing military terminology. I figured he could settle this pretty quickly.


Sorry, I thought the subject was the accuracy of Bush's immature declaration of victory .... semantics lend no value to that debate so I'll butt out.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 09:40 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Sorry, I thought the subject was the accuracy of Bush's immature declaration of victory .... semantics lend no value to that debate so I'll butt out.


Perhaps the issue is what was "victory" at that time. In purely military analysis: Saddam was defeated; US in control of Iraq. That was a victory at that stage in the war.

It appears semantics is the entirety of the liberals' argument here.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 09:45 am
Quote, "...US in control of Iraq...." was very temporary at best. The only location under control were the oil fields. If that's control, you win. However, I must remind you that oil field fires have been regular occurances after they took "control."
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 09:51 am
McGentrix wrote:
Instead, you should rise above all of it and contribute. Especially if you have specific information on the material being discussed.


Actrually, McG, I was referring to this sentence by Lash:

Quote:
Its military terminology--so, I understand why you liberals don't understand.

There are quite a lot liberals with military experiences - I've just been a conscript, later a member of the alarm reserve (and a part-time editor for the naval magazine "Our Fleet" :wink: ).


I truely doubt that some are that interested here in the use of military naval terms and termology by German conscripts in the times of Wilhlem II and in the late 60's/early 70's.
(And besides, I had to look it up myself again - wrote that more than 30 years ago.)
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 09:52 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
Sorry, I thought the subject was the accuracy of Bush's immature declaration of victory .... semantics lend no value to that debate so I'll butt out.


Perhaps the issue is what was "victory" at that time. In purely military analysis: Saddam was defeated; US in control of Iraq. That was a victory at that stage in the war.

It appears semantics is the entirety of the liberals' argument here.

Perhaps not ......you saying it's so does little to convince me. Show some documentation.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:03 am
Excerpt:

Quote:
Franks: `Mission Accomplished' aimed to draw foreign involvement

BY DAVID TARRANT

The Dallas Morning News

DALLAS - (KRT) - After commanding the operation that toppled Saddam Hussein, Gen. Tommy Franks suggested that President Bush publicly mark an end to major combat in Iraq - an idea that led to the president's politically controversial appearance aboard an aircraft carrier.

Bush's announcement, under a banner that read "Mission Accomplished," took place just six weeks after the start of the war, generating harsh criticism as being a premature celebration and political grandstanding.

Franks, who retired a year ago, said he thought a public announcement would send a green light to countries that had balked at joining combat operations but had expressed willingness to join efforts to rebuild Iraq.

"That was not so everyone could have a victory lap," Franks said in a telephone interview Monday. "We'd been given to believe that once major hostilities were over, we would have lots and lots more help from the international community."


Source
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:07 am
I guess "timing" is of the essence to Frank's claim to "have lots and lots more help from the international community." Good article, Brand X. It should simmer down some of the rhetoric coming from the right.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:11 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
Sorry, I thought the subject was the accuracy of Bush's immature declaration of victory .... semantics lend no value to that debate so I'll butt out.


Perhaps the issue is what was "victory" at that time. In purely military analysis: Saddam was defeated; US in control of Iraq. That was a victory at that stage in the war.

It appears semantics is the entirety of the liberals' argument here.

Perhaps not ......you saying it's so does little to convince me. Show some documentation.


You require documentation of what? You need documentation that the anti-war leftists arguing on this site are caught up in the semantics of words on a banner hanging behind Bush as he spoke on the USS Lincoln? You need documentation that Saddam and his army was defeated, or that the US was in control of Iraq? Please clarify what you are unconvinced about, and feel you need documentation on.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:13 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
I guess "timing" is of the essence to Frank's claim to "have lots and lots more help from the international community." Good article, Brand X. It should simmer down some of the rhetoric coming from the right.


It would be nice if it would make those on the left understand the reason for the announcement of the end of major combat operations.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:24 am
Quote:

Perhaps the issue is what was "victory" at that time. In purely military analysis: Saddam was defeated; US in control of Iraq. That was a victory at that stage in the war.

It appears semantics is the entirety of the liberals' argument here.

Quote:

You require documentation of what? You need documentation that the anti-war leftists arguing on this site are caught up in the semantics of words on a banner hanging behind Bush as he spoke on the USS Lincoln? You need documentation that Saddam and his army was defeated, or that the US was in control of Iraq? Please clarify what you are unconvinced about, and feel you need documentation on.


Documentation of your statements marked in bold. If you have none please say so.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:26 am
Quote from above, "The Dallas Morning News

DALLAS - (KRT) - After commanding the operation that toppled Saddam Hussein, Gen. Tommy Franks suggested that President Bush publicly mark an end to major combat in Iraq - an idea that led to the president's politically controversial appearance aboard an aircraft carrier.

Bush's announcement, under a banner that read "Mission Accomplished," took place just six weeks after the start of the war, generating harsh criticism as being a premature celebration and political grandstanding."

If numbers mean anything in war, "major combat operatings" really began after Bush made the announcement "the end of major combat operations." No, Lash, we are not privy to any clues to military terminology as used by Bush; but then only a few righties liike yourself understands his rhetoric. Have you recently asked anybody in the US Army or Marines now in Iraq if they thought "the end of major combat operations" occurred after Bush's speech?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:31 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Quote:

Perhaps the issue is what was "victory" at that time. In purely military analysis: Saddam was defeated; US in control of Iraq. That was a victory at that stage in the war.

It appears semantics is the entirety of the liberals' argument here.

Quote:

You require documentation of what? You need documentation that the anti-war leftists arguing on this site are caught up in the semantics of words on a banner hanging behind Bush as he spoke on the USS Lincoln? You need documentation that Saddam and his army was defeated, or that the US was in control of Iraq? Please clarify what you are unconvinced about, and feel you need documentation on.


Documentation of your statements marked in bold. If you have none please say so.


The sun rose in the East this morning. I have neither documentation of that event, nor the inclination to convince you of its occurrence. Some folks just like being obtuse and combative. You appear to be one of those folks.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:44 am
revel wrote:
not till they ask us to

not unless they ask us to

before the war one didn't have one thing to do with another, now it may be a different story, unless of course the outside terrorist follow us wherever the administration takes us next.

I think war should [NOT?]be necessary and freeing others from dictators is not practical because you can't free everybody.

Do you have proof that any of the so called bad articles are false? If so which ones and how are they false? (Actual proof please, not just observations. )


Thank you for answering all five of my questions.

As you already know, regardless of what the administration thought or thinks (or is alleged to have thought or to think), I thought and think the invasion of Iraq was/is a major step toward solving the worldwide terrorist problem: East, West, and Middle East. I perceived the al Qaeda base established in Iraq in 2001 to be an even greater growing threat to the US than was the al Qaeda base established in Afghanistan in 1988. Saddam's regime had a far greater weapons and munitions cache available to support al Qaeda terrorist activities than the Taliban ever had.

Also, I don't buy the argument that if one can't save all then one should not try to save some.

Over a week ago, I posted to you some of the evidence I had, besides Rather-blather, that I think supports my contention that ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, NYT, BG, WP, and LAT are not trustworthy news sources. If you can't find that post let me know and I'll look for it. The most recent example in 2005, that I gave you was CNN's now former news chief now admitted false allegation that reporters in Iraq were being targeted by our soldiers in Iraq. That news chief was the same one who agreed on or before 1990 not to disclose Saddam regime atrocities in return for remaining in Iraq.

revel wrote:
btw-the word, "infer" is getting old.

I use the word infer to express my significant uncertainty regarding whether my assertion that follows the use of that word is true or not. For example, I infer from your btw-statement that my continued use of the word infer will annoy you. While I do not wish to annoy you and hope I am wrong about it annoying you, I will nonetheless continue my use of the word infer when I think it an appropriately simple way to express my significant uncertainty.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:49 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
Quote:

Perhaps the issue is what was "victory" at that time. In purely military analysis: Saddam was defeated; US in control of Iraq. That was a victory at that stage in the war.

It appears semantics is the entirety of the liberals' argument here.

Quote:

You require documentation of what? You need documentation that the anti-war leftists arguing on this site are caught up in the semantics of words on a banner hanging behind Bush as he spoke on the USS Lincoln? You need documentation that Saddam and his army was defeated, or that the US was in control of Iraq? Please clarify what you are unconvinced about, and feel you need documentation on.


Documentation of your statements marked in bold. If you have none please say so.


The sun rose in the East this morning. I have neither documentation of that event, nor the inclination to convince you of its occurrence. Some folks just like being obtuse and combative. You appear to be one of those folks.


Since you have no documentation I must assume that your arguement is based on personal opinion to which you are allowed, I can see no reason to assume the validity of those opinions.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:49 am
Every now and then I get the mistaken impression that you're something of an independent, Ican, but you're really a Neo-Con who sometimes has a brain of his own. To you, the ends justify the means; because it's the long-run that matters, right?

Quote:
Over a week ago, I posted to you some of the evidence I had, besides Rather-blather, that I think supports my contention that ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, NYT, BG, WP, and LAT are not trustworthy news sources


I note you left FOX, the least trustworthy of them all, off the list. No surprise though.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:56 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
The sun rose in the East this morning. I have neither documentation of that event, nor the inclination to convince you of its occurrence. Some folks just like being obtuse and combative. You appear to be one of those folks.


Since you have no documentation I must assume that your arguement is based on personal opinion to which you are allowed, I can see no reason to assume the validity of those opinions.


Knock yourself out.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:58 am
Cool
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 11:26 am
[my comments are in blue]
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Every now and then I get the mistaken impression that you're something of an independent, Ican, but you're really a Neo-Con who sometimes has a brain of his own. To you, the ends justify the means; because it's the long-run that matters, right?

[I infer Smile from this comment that you think I am an independent with a brain of my own only when I post things you agree with. I in turn infer from that you generally think me a stupid fool. I in turn infer from that you are a poor judge of people. Crying or Very sad ]

Quote:
Over a week ago, I posted to you some of the evidence I had, besides Rather-blather, that I think supports my contention that ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, NYT, BG, WP, and LAT are not trustworthy news sources


I note you left FOX, the least trustworthy of them all, off the list. No surprise though. Cycloptichorn

[I infer Smile you have no other basis for your remark about FOX News than they often present news you do not want to believe is true. I have detected in FOX News's presentation amazingly few errors. Also amazing to me is the fact that FOX News often corrects its errors sometimes on the same day. However, what I like most about FOX News is their explicit separation of opinion from their news broadcasts. I am not troubled or even annoyed at all by the fact that their opinion programs sometimes fail to conform to my opinion. I'm certainly use to that from my participation in this able2know forum. I don't make the mistake here of damning able2know for the many false opinion articles posted here. They too are easily recognized as such.]
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 11:43 am
Don't get the wrong impression; I would never think you a fool, ever. The fact you disagree with me on issues has nothing to do with foolishness. So your 'inferrences' are a little off this time.

Quote:
I have detected in FOX News's presentation amazingly few errors.


I just don't see how you can think this is true. Fox, whether you divide up the news from the opinion or not, has more factual errors and intentional mis-representations of facts than the rest of the networks combined! They INTENTIONALLY change people's quotes, mis-represent statistics, and such, every day.

The fact that they correct themselves the same day is immaterial, as they follow the same mantra as the rest of the GOP: say whatever you want, no matter what the facts are, b/c 20 million are going to see you say it, and 1 million are going to see the retraction. It's a net-win situation.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 11:49 am
Cyclop writes
Quote:
I just don't see how you can think this is true. Fox, whether you divide up the news from the opinion or not, has more factual errors and intentional mis-representations of facts than the rest of the networks combined! They INTENTIONALLY change people's quotes, mis-represent statistics, and such, every day.


As my observations of Fox news parallels Icon's, I'm going to have to ask for some proof of this statement. Or I will accept if you retract it and admit that this is what you've been told. I cannot believe that you came to this opinion by actually watching.
0 Replies
 
 

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