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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 03:50 pm
ican711nm
How low can you stoop. To denigrate Kerry's service in Viet Nam. Where and when did you serve and if so what medals did you earn?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 04:10 pm
This sounds like Ted Turner, while not a buddy of Murdochs, isn't looking at him as if he's a problem:
Quote:

In the late 1960s, when Turner Communications was a business of billboards and radio stations and I was spending much of my energy ocean racing, a UHF-TV station came up for sale in Atlanta. It was losing $50,000 a month and its programs were viewed by fewer than 5 percent of the market.

I acquired it.

When I moved to buy a second station in Charlotte--this one worse than the first--my accountant quit in protest, and the company's board vetoed the deal. So I mortgaged my house and bought it myself. The Atlanta purchase turned into the Superstation; the Charlotte purchase--when I sold it 10 years later--gave me the capital to launch CNN.
Both purchases played a role in revolutionizing television. Both required a streak of independence and a taste for risk. And neither could happen today. In the current climate of consolidation, independent broadcasters simply don't survive for long. That's why we haven't seen a new generation of people like me or even Rupert Murdoch--independent television upstarts who challenge the big boys and force the whole industry to compete and change.
-Ted Turner
Remainder of article in Washington Monthly:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0407.turner.html
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 04:14 pm
au1929 wrote:
ican711nm
How low can you stoop. To denigrate Kerry's service in Viet Nam.


ican711nm wrote:
John Kerry's alleged heroic performance in his 4-month tour of duty serving in Vietnam allegedly prepared him well for his tour of duty as a multi-year lying villifier of his Vietnam fellow servers.


How did my statement denegrate Kerry's service? Oh, perhaps it's my use of the phrase "alleged heroic service." I often use the word "alleged" when I cannot personally verify my assertions.

I think an heroic four month tour of duty is something less than the heroic one-year tours of duty in Vietnam performed by many including those with whom I'm personally acquainted. These heroes obtained the same or greater medals for alleged heroism. Were these aquaintenances of mine and others likewise prepared to be multi-year lying villifiers of their Vietnam fellow servers? Rolling Eyes

au1929 wrote:
Where and when did you serve and if so what medals did you earn?


My point is valid regardless of my personal service, which is, of course, irrelevant. Whether or not I served, whether or not I served at the ages of 30 and 31, whether or not I earned the same or greater medals than Kerry, is beside the point of whether Kerry is qualified to be President because of his service.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 04:37 pm
ican
Whether he is qualified to be president is not my bone to pick with you at the moment. Your obvious denigration of someone who served is. Four months, four days or four minutes is irrelevant. I should note that Kerry enlisted and did not as the other guy did get dear old dad to use his influence to get into the Nat Guard and than well you know the end of the story.

As for whether he is qualified to be president? Hell by your standards if you feel the donkey in the white house is qualified a cardboard cutout should be able to satisfy you.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 04:40 pm
A cardboard cut-out would be far less likely to embarrass the nation so often, as well.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 04:45 pm
As I recall, Kerry denigrated his own medals and service when he claimed that he threw them over the White House fence. That he later admitted he lied that he threw them but rather threw some other guys' medals and a few of his own ribbons reverses that denigration I guess.

To accuse Ican of denigrating Kerry because he made a factual statement of Kerry's time in Vietnam and illustrate it by calling the President of the United States a donkey is just too profound for words.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 04:49 pm
Foxfyre
I guess birds of a feather stick together or is it lemmings. Now all I have to hear from is McG to complete the troika.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 05:26 pm
I wonder how the troika would respond to an attack add related to Georgie boys heroic service.
The flight to the Lincoln don't count.


Sen. John McCain said a campaign ad criticizing John Kerry's military service was "dishonest and dishonorable." The White House declined to comment.



WASHINGTON (Aug. 5) -- Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service ''dishonest and dishonorable'' and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.

The White House declined.

''It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me,'' McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, comparing the anti-Kerry ad to tactics in his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush.

The 60-second ad features Vietnam veterans who accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of lying about his decorated Vietnam War record and betraying his fellow veterans by later opposing the conflict.

''When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry,'' one of the veterans, Larry Thurlow, says in the ad. Thurlow didn't serve on Kerry's swiftboat, but says he witnessed the events that led to Kerry winning a Bronze Star and the last of his three Purple Hearts. Kerry's crewmates support the candidate and call him a hero.

The ad, scheduled to air in a few markets in Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin, was produced by Stevens, Reed, Curcio and Potham, the same team that produced McCain's ads in 2000.

''I wish they hadn't done it,'' McCain said of his former advisers. ''I don't know if they knew all the facts.''

Asked if the White House knew about the ad or helped find financing for it, McCain said, ''I hope not, but I don't know. But I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad.''
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 05:31 pm
And the DNC lawyers are putting heavy pressure on television stations to not run the ad.

The vets response to McCain
Quote:
Swift Boat Veterans For Truth Responds To Senator McCain
Thu Aug 05 2004 17:10:20 ET

"Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has more than 250 members, many of whom were wounded or highly decorated in Vietnam.

We purchased with our blood and service the right to be heard, to set the record straight about our unit, and to tell the truth about John Kerry's military service record.

We respect Senator McCain's right to express his opinion and we hope he extends to us the same respect and courtesy, particularly since we served with John Kerry, we knew him well and Senator McCain did not."

Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann (ret.), Founder and Chairman of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. (Drudge)
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 05:57 pm
Fox
Go to the google and look up Bush's religious agenda and you will find more than enough areas where Bush blurred the line and even crossed it. I do not intend to do your research. I object strenuously to a Jesus Christ day, week, month or year. I said it before but it bears repeating. Not only should we have freedom of religion we need freedom from religion as well. The US should not be Taliban country.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 10:13 am
au1929 wrote:
I guess birds of a feather stick together or is it lemmings. Now all I have to hear from is McG to complete the troika.


Attacking the arguer rather than the argument is standard behavior for the neo-libs. Are you a neo-lib? Are you, au1929 and Setanta, a couple of "birds" of the same feather, too--just different feathers?

I'll try again to focus attention on the qualifications of John Kerry to be President.

ican711nm wrote:
John Kerry's alleged heroic performance in his 4-month tour of duty serving in Vietnam allegedly prepared him well for his tour of duty as a multi-year admitted ("that was a little over the top") lying villifier of his Vietnam fellow servers. That in turn allegedly prepared him well for his multi-term tour of duty in the US Senate. (In the Senate Kerry repeatedly voted to limit our military capabilities and our intelligence capabilities.) That in turn has allegedly prepared him well for a tour of duty as the next President of the US.

Why is that?

Well hell, ain't that obvious? That's all because Tony Blair and George Bush are alleged liars about their motives for invading Iraq.
(I added the words in boldface since previously posting this quote of mine)

This "bird" here agrees that George Bush is fallible and has made many serious mistakes including his management of the recovery of Iraq and his management of domestic spending.

Bad as these mistakes by Bush have been, what are the rational (not neurotic/psychotic) reasons for believing that John Kerry will do a better job as President than has George Bush?

I've heard what has come to seem to me like programmed, repeated claims by the neo-libs, starting even before Bush was elected, that Bush is a liar and a fool. What rational reasons, if any, do you have for believing that?

A. I've personally heard and seen Kerry in a couple of television interviews earlier this year admit to lying about his fellow Vietnam veterans after he returned from his 4-month tour of duty.

B. I've personally examined Kerry's Senate voting record revealing his consistent opposition to strengthening and improving the US military and the US intelligence services.

C. I've personally heard and seen Kerry in a several television speeches (including his acceptance speech at the Democratic convention) reveal his incompetence in economics by announcing his intention to both increase taxes on those earning more than 200 grand per year and increase federal spending, while increasing the number of "good" jobs in the US and reducing the federal deficit. Whether we in the 15% tax bracket like it or not, reducing the disgressionary income of the more wealty will decrease their continued investment in the economy, and will thereby reduce not increase "good" jobs, and will increase not reduce the federal deficit.

If A, B, and C are true, then Kerry is not more competent than Bush to serve as President of the United States.

It would be great if you choose to debate my claims, A, B, C, and D. However, if you choose to instead debate my feathers, I will conclude you believe yourself incompetent to debate my claims.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 10:31 am
Hey big bird.
You have personally done this and that and come to your own conclusions. You sound like that great intellectual Idol of yours The schrub.
I would like to clear up another misconception of yours. Everyone that dislikes or in my case dislikes is too mild a word Bush. Is not a flaming liberal. Just someone with the ability to reason.

As to the cardboard cutout in the White House. He has a proven record of incompetance how can any thinking individual want to put that incompetant back in the White House.

As to the cardboard cutout in the White House. He has a proven record of incompetance how can any thinking individual want to put that incompetant back in the White House.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 10:39 am
Quote:
Whether we in the 15% tax bracket like it or not, reducing the disgressionary income of the more wealty will decrease their continued investment in the economy


Is this proven? Or conjecture?

Cycloptichorn
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 10:44 am
The long history of the on-going brouhaha over a capital gains tax shows no noticeable increase or decrease in investment based upon such a tax. Wealthy people invest because that is how they earn money in excess of any salary they could expect to gain. Additionally, tax cuts for the working class and the middle class can easily stimulate consumer buying. A wealthy man needs only a single washing machine. A poor man needs only a single washing machine. If a tax cut to the wealthy meant each an every one of them went out to buy a washing machine, durable goods orders would increase by about 3,000,000. If every member of the working class were given a tax cut, and were inclined therefore to go out to buy a washing machine, durable goods orders would increase by tens of millions, easily by more than one hundred million.

The math is not hard to do, but it is incovenient to a defense of an administration which has as the only goal of its tax policies to give hand-outs to those who predictably make large political contributions.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 10:53 am
au1929 wrote:
Hey big bird.
You have personally done this and that and come to your own conclusions. You sound like that great intellectual Idol of yours The schrub.
I would like to clear up another misconception of yours. Everyone that dislikes or in my case dislikes is too mild a word Bush. Is not a flaming liberal. Just someone with the ability to reason.


I dislike Bush too, and I'm sure as hell no neo-lib.

The important question is: Is Kerry a better choice? Or if you prefer: Is Kerry a better cardboard cutout than is Bush? More sensibly, has Bush learned enough by his mistakes to correct them next time around; is Kerry likely to do a better job, regardless?

au1929 wrote:
As to the cardboard cutout in the White House. He has a proven record of incompetance how can any thinking individual want to put that incompetant back in the White House.


As to the "cardboard cutout" trying to get into the White House. He has a proven record of incompetence. How can any thinking individual ever want to put that incompetent into the White House.

So the question comes down to: Which "cardboard cutout" is the better choice for the White House?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 10:57 am
Some years ago, Bush the first went along with a Congressional initiative to place a luxury tax on high end purchases such as yachts, jewelry and private airplanes. The rich didn't stop buying these things; they just stopped buying them in America. The result was devastating decimation of our private boat and plane building industries and loss of many thousands of jobs resulting in a net loss to the U.S. treasury.

It isn't that cutting taxes on the rich increases purchases of washing machines. It is that cutting taxes on the rich encourages the rich to do business in the U.S.; i.e. savings (which provides more capital for others to borrow); investment in stocks and bonds (which boosts all investers, including the working people's 401Ks), or spending which boosts the U.S. economy no matter what they spend it on, or plowing it back into their own companies allowing for new jobs or increased benefits to employees. Raising taxes on the rich eliminates capital for all these things while encouraging the rich to funnel addtional capital into tax shelters that help no one.

In my opinion, it may make us feel satisfied and righteous that the rich get gouged by the government, but every time we do it, it does not hurt the rich anywhere near as much as it hurts the little guy.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 11:12 am
Quote:
Raising taxes on the rich eliminates capital for all these things while encouraging the rich to funnel addtional capital into tax shelters that help no one.


Proven, or Conjecture?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 11:52 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Whether we in the 15% tax bracket like it or not, reducing the disgressionary income of the more wealty will decrease their continued investment in the economy


Is this proven? Or conjecture?


It is neither proven or a conjecture. There is considerable evidence that this is more probably true than not.

When Carter was President, the maximum income tax rate was 70%. We then had a so-called double digit inflation rate, interest rate, and unemployment rate.

When Reagan slashed the maximum income tax rate to net 33% (first he cut it to 28%, then subsequently increased it to 33%), we subsequently enjoyed a so-called single digit inflation rate, interest rate, and unemployment rate. Federal revenue from the income tax doubled over the Reagan 8 years. However, federal expenditures almost tripled.

Both the terms of Presidents Bush-41 and Clinton benefited despite their increasing the maximum income tax rate to 35%(Bush-41) and to 39.7%(Clinton).

By the way, President John Kennedy's term also witnessed sharply increasing federal revenues from a large reduction in the maximum income tax rate.

What is the explanation for this phenomena? What logic can explain it? After all, it seems logical that increasing the tax rate will always produce more total federal income tax revenue, while reducing the maximum tax rate will always produce less total federal income tax revenue.

The practical explanation is: Taking a higher percentage of the income of the more wealthy and giving it to the government reduces the amount of total private economy investment available. That in turn reduces the rate at which new and old private businesses grow. That in turn reduces private economic growth. That in turn reduces the rate at which jobs in the private economy grow. Yes, the rate at which government jobs grow is enhanced by a higher maximum income tax rate, but that growth is much smaller than if the same money were invested privately in the private economy.

The theoretical explanation is the Laffer Curve. Laffer argues that total income tax revenue is zero at two different maximum income tax rates. Obviously, a maximum income tax rate of zero%, will produce zero federal income from the income tax. I think it also obvious that a maximum income tax rate of 100% will also produce zero federal income from the income tax. Who will work for nothing? So the optimum maximum income tax rate is that rate which will produce the greatest total federal income from the income tax. What is that optimum? Knowing that is clearly important because a maximum income tax rate that is greater or less than that optimum will produce less total federal income from the income tax.

The optimum is highly dependent on other major expenses that must be paid by the whole private economy. For example, when the price of energy (e.g., oil) is low, the optimum will be higher than it will be when the price of energy is high.

The current cost of energy is high now. Consequently, I estimate that the current optimum is probably well under 30%. My estimate is based on historical economic data gleaned from my library of almost 40 years of Britannica Year Books.

Thanks for asking!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 12:15 pm
Setanta wrote:
The long history of the on-going brouhaha over a capital gains tax shows no noticeable increase or decrease in investment based upon such a tax.


I claim that is not true! However, my remarks were not limited to the capital gains tax. Whatever way the income is earned, the maximum tax on income has a significant impact on total federal income from the income tax (regardless of its source).

Setanta wrote:
A wealthy man needs only a single washing machine. A poor man needs only a single washing machine.


It's not a matter of need! It is a matter of want!

The wealthy want more than one air, land, or sea charter/rental, more than one airplane, more than one car, more than one boat, more than one home, more than one vacation trip, etc. All of these provide significant employment. However, the greatest boost to employment occurs because the wealthy want more and therefore invest more directly or indirectly in businesses. But let's be honest! Both the wealthy and the less wealthy want more! The less wealthy also want and do invest directly or indirectly in businesses in the private economy because they want more. Take away our money via the income tax and we all will have less. Take away the wealthy's money via the income tax and we all will have less.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 12:21 pm
Bullshit
0 Replies
 
 

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