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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 01:32 pm
Rebuilding of Baghdad

Here is the kind of news reporting and comment you don't see in the mainstream press. Persevere with it, it's worth the trouble to read properly.

www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,38189,00.html
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 01:45 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
48%
26%
14%
12%
100%

I don't understand your question about the turnout. (As far as I understand this number, 58% out those, who registered, voted.)


When it comes to things like this I am unaccountably slow. But I was wondering if only 58% of the people voted who were registered to vote how could the total percentages of all list end up being more than the people who voted?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 01:47 pm
Those 58% make 100% out of whom 48% voted ...
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 01:55 pm
I knew I shouldn't have asked.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 02:03 pm
Quote:
Analysis:
Votes Show Islam Party Strength

Sunday February 13, 2005

By SALLY BUZBEE

Associated Press Writer

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - For years, opponents of free elections in the Arab world have whispered warnings that if democracy ever came to this region, Islamic fundamentalists would sweep to power.

Now, with votes counted in Iraq and Saudi Arabia, it's clear there's truth to the idea that strongly conservative, Islam-driven candidates fare well.

In Iraq, a coalition linked to the country's main Shiite Muslim cleric won 48 percent of the votes in the first free elections in a half-century. And in the first phase of Saudi elections for city councils, seven candidates with Islamist leanings won in Riyadh, the capital.

Neither vote means a new wave of fundamentalism will soon flood this oil-rich region.

In Iraq, the cleric's coalition will be forced to reach out to other parties to form a government, and its leaders have said they do not want an Iranian-style theocracy. In Saudi Arabia, a government already strongly Islamic could moderate the councils through appointments - and tribal candidates did well outside the capital.

Yet at a time when Islamic governments hostile to the West send a shiver down European and American spines, the results clearly show that in countries like Iraq, Saudi Arabia and even Egypt, religious parties have a natural advantage.

With their charity networks and their history of opposing the region's dictators, Islamic parties are sometimes all that Arab voters know or trust.

``They are more organized and they invested a lot of effort to mobilize people to go to vote for them,'' said Mohammed Abdel Jabar, editor in chief of Baghdad's Al Sabah newspaper. ``There is a tendency to support the Islamist groups'' anyway in Iraq, he noted, because of the society's strong religious base.

In Iraq, that was even more pronounced because voters ``didn't find an alternative,'' Jabar said.

In Saudi Arabia, many of the winning candidates were either imams in mosques who preach conservative ideas, teachers in schools, or people who work for Islamic charities, said Mshari al Thaydi, a Saudi analyst and expert on Islamic groups in Riyadh.

``In a society where there is no cinema, no theater, no alternative culture, you have to expect that people know only those who talk to them in mosques and schools,'' al Thaydi said.

To him, that means democracy must wait. He believes in first trying to liberalize Saudi society, then moving toward democratic elections.

Losing Riyadh candidate Abdul-Rahman al-Humaidi is even more blunt. ``Let's forget about elections if these people are going to win,'' the pro-reform university professor said. ``Let's have appointments.''

It's an old argument.

In 1992, Algeria's military called off legislative elections in the world's second-largest Arab nation after it became apparent Islamic hard-liners were set to win. That drew few complaints from the West - which was worried about the hard-liners' ascent - but it also prompted a bloody Islamic insurgency.

Next door, many middle-class Tunisians support their authoritarian government, fearful that free elections would bring to power the now-underground Islamists who support head scarves, bans on the cinema and restrictions on women's work and rights.

In Egypt, a country of 70 million people brimming with young, under-employed men, President Hosni Mubarak is set to win his fifth term later this year under a system that outlaws opponents. Yet the United States never makes free elections its top priority in talks in Cairo - despite President Bush's push for democracy across the Middle East.

U.S. officials know, as does everyone else, that despite crackdowns over the years, Islamic groups would fare extremely well if Egypt held a truly open election.

Yet other Arabs and many Westerners, including U.S. officials, argue that even if Islamic groups are likely to win at first in the Middle East, democracy must start somewhere. They say governments might prove more moderate, and moderate candidates might fare better, as time goes on.

Only 149,000 out of 600,000 eligible Saudis even registered to vote, al Thaydi notes. That may have given outsized influence to Islamic-leaning voters highly motivated to participate - influence that could wane if more Saudis vote in the future, he said.

In Iraq, the winning Shiites have not said they want to form a religious government similar to Iran's, where clerics have a direct role, notes Stephen M. Walt, a professor of international relations and expert on Islam at Harvard University.

The Shiites do want Iraq's constitution to have an Islamic foundation. But they must reach out to other groups - most probably the largely Sunni Kurds - to form a government, meaning those groups will have an impact on the eventual constitution.

Many see that as, quite frankly, a relief.

Says Sen. Rick Santorum, a conservative Republican in the U.S. Senate: ``It was a good thing that the Shiites can't just sort of dictate how things are to go.''

---

Sally Buzbee is chief of Middle East news for The Associated Press, based in Cairo, Egypt.
Source
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 02:26 pm
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050213/wl_mideast_afp/iraq&cid=1514&ncid=1480

Shiites win resounding victory in Iraq's landmark election

14 minutes ago


BAGHDAD (AFP) - Iraq (news - web sites)'s long-oppressed Shiite majority scored a resounding victory in the first vote since Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s downfall, setting the stage for the first Shiite government in an Arab state in 1,000 years.


Although it mustered less than half of the votes, the counting method laid out by the country's electoral law means the main Shiite list backed by powerful spiritual leader Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani is on track for an absolute majority in parliament.


The Kurdish alliance was poised to become the country's second political force, while the list of incumbent Prime Minister Iyad Allawi was a distant third.


Shiite leaders swiftly offered a hand to the ousted Sunni elite in Iraq, where a continuing deadly insurgency has claimed thousands of lives since Saddam was ousted by US invading troops in April 2003.


"Iraq is bleeding and we need everybody at this juncture to work for solidarity and unity," said Finance Minister Adel Abdel Mahdi, a leading figure in the Shiite United Iraqi Alliance.


The Alliance won 48.1 percent of the vote and based on the complex counting system should have 140 out of the National Assembly's 275 seats. This would give it the majority necessary to form a government and legitimacy to demand top jobs.


But political entities also could change this by challenging the results within the next three days, election officials said. If there are no challenges, the results will be declared definitive.


The second powerful ticket, that grouping the two main Kurdish parties, took some 25.7 percent of the vote and should have 75 seats, making Kurds well-placed to become kingmakers of Iraqi politics after decades of struggle against successive Sunni regimes.


But the list put together by Allawi -- interim prime minister since the US occupiers handed power to Iraqis in June last year -- managed only a distant third with 13.8 percent and some 40 seats.


"Today marks the birth of a new Iraq and a free people," election commission official Farid Ayar told reporters.


Turnout was about 59 percent, with a total of almost 8.5 million people voting in what was the first free election in Iraq in more than half a century. To mark the event, January 30 has been declared a national holiday.


Despite threats of a bloodbath by Sunni Arab insurgents, election day passed without any major attacks and was internationally acclaimed as a success.


A government line-up is not expected immediately as officials have warned that it could take several weeks to reach an ethnic and religious balance acceptable to all parties.


Almost immediately, Kurdish leaders reiterated demands for the presidency or premiership -- their success set to make them powerbroker in national politics, serving as a bridge between Shiite religious parties and secular Arabs.


In a first reaction from the international community, British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw congratulated the people of Iraq on the results, saying: "The Iraqi people have taken another important step on the way to a secure and democratic future."


But officials and observers fear that Sunni marginalisation could further fuel an insurgency which has resulted in thousands of deaths over the past two years and crippled the country's economy.


Negotiations have already begun for the minority Sunni community which dominated Saddam's regime and all previous Iraqi governments to be included in the political process.


All key posts are due to be announced at the same time.

The members of parliament will have to select a president and his two deputies, who in turn will have to unanimously pick a prime minister. The new premier will then be tasked with choosing a cabinet that has to be approved by a majority in parliament.

According to the interim constitution, the new national assembly has to write a permanent one by August 15, but the parliament speaker and a majority of the chamber can decide on a non-renewable six-month extension.

If the initial deadline is met, the new basic law will be submitted to a referendum on October 15 before fresh polls are held on December 15.

In the latest violence on Sunday at least 16 people were killed, including a senior army officer gunned down in an ambush. The network of Al-Qaeda's Iraq frontman, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, claimed in an internet statement that it had killed an Iraqi general.

And three unidentified tortured corpses were discovered in Baghdad, police said.

Ahead of the vote, Zarqawi, the most wanted man in Iraq, had pledged to wage holy war against the Shiite majority, whose expected political empowerment has fuelled the anger of Sunni Arab hardliners.

More than 100 people have been killed over the past week. The Pentagon (news - web sites) says more than 1,450 US troops have been killed since the invasion, while the independent website Iraqi body count reports that more 15,000 civilians have died over the same period.

Insurgents have also carried out almost daily attacks against the country's vital oil infrastructure, hampering a much-needed economic recovery, and have kidnapped hundreds of people, some of whom have been later killed and their deaths put on video tape.

Ailing Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II, making his first public appearance since leaving hospital, called for the release of all hostages in Iraq during prayers in Rome on Sunday.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 03:23 pm
It has occurred to me that for some decades, the majority Shi'a's were under the minority (but favored) Sunni thumb and were quite mistreated, abused, used, and oppressed as a result.

It is Sunni insurgents, bolstered by Al Qaida operatives, who are perpectuating virtually all the violence leading up to, through, and subsequent to the historic election.

Now if you were a Sunni, wouldn't it occur to you that pissing off the ruling majority now could be a really bad idea and maybe it would be a really good idea to kiss and make up? Do things work all that differently in that part of the world?
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 03:33 pm
Do people in America who vote kiss up to those who don't?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 03:46 pm
No, but they sure as as hell don't blow them up with car bombs either.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 04:35 pm
foxfire wrote : " Now if you were a Sunni, wouldn't it occur to you that pissing off the ruling majority now could be a really bad idea and maybe it would be a really good idea to kiss and make up? Do things work all that differently in that part of the world? " ... from what i've read about the middle-east, things often work differently than from what we are used to in the west. i have also read in a number of books and articles that there is not a simple separation into shi'a/sunni/kurd groups. apparently there are major divisions within those groups and also crossover groupings depending on local loyalties, the power of(war)lords, mullahs. many writers who have lived for extended periods of time in the middle-east think that we cannot simply look at our western (north-american) way of doing things and expect that people in the middle-east would do things in the same(or at least in similar) fashion than we do. of course we do things different from people in the middle-east and wouldn't want to adopt their style either in most cases. looking at europeans we know that there are distinct variations in life-styles, politics, religions etc from country-to-country and region-to-region, and in both the united states and canada we are not homogeneous entities either. in my opinion we have to be prepared to be patient and watch things unfold slowly in the middle-east (give help and encouragement and hope for the best). after all the middle-east has a much longer historical record than either europe or north-america. the people of the middle-east have survived all kinds of deprivations, invasions, wars, plagues of various kinds over the centuries; they'll no doubt survive the current problems. the outcome may not be what we in the western world want, but i think that hardly matters. hbg
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 05:23 pm
Interesting stuff Hamburger. I was listening to an Iraqi expert on the radio this afternoon. The stuff he was talking about was terribly interesting but I failed to note his name before I was interrupted. Basically he was saying that the Shia's have been infinitely patient with the murderous Sunni's because they so much want this to work and they know they have to include everybody. Maybe their culture is so accustomed to murder and blood and gore they don't take it as personally as we Americans would. I think if some group in America by whatever name was systematically blowing up market places, police stations, and killing hundreds of innocent civilians, we wouldn't care what measures were used to stop them and wouldn't give a tinker's damn whether they were included or not.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 05:48 pm
I don't think this has been posted yet.

Allawi miscalculated and never connected with Iraqis, analysts say

BY TOM LASSETER

Knight Ridder Newspapers


BAGHDAD, Iraq - (KRT) - Sunday's election results suggest that interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi and the U.S. administration that backed him made a bad bet.

Allawi's political ticket, which had said it expected to finish strong, ended up a distant third with about 1.2 million votes, far behind the Shiite cleric-led United Iraqi Alliance, which got about 4 million. A coalition of Kurdish parties nearly doubled Allawi's ticket's total.

What happened? Many Iraqi politicians think that Allawi, a longtime exile who was once a member of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party, spent so much time with Americans, behind barricades, that he never connected with the people of Iraq.

Allawi's gamble was that Iraqis wanted a strongman willing to call for U.S. tanks to suppress uprisings, a leader who rode around in expensive armored sport utility vehicles, even a leader whose followers had once taken CIA money.

Other exiles, including top officials in the Iraqi Alliance, failed to connect with fellow-Iraqis, too, when they first came home. But the winners quickly used the shared religion of Shiite Islam to build bridges. Though a Shiite, Allawi never went out of his way to profess his faith in public or seek the favor of Shiite ayatollahs.

While it's too early to write his political obituary - Allawi is nothing if not a crafty politician - he plainly miscalculated in thinking that a strong-willed nationalist could win against a Shiite Muslim population whose clerics wanted a more devout leader.

Iraqi voters agreed, and that was no surprise to Sadoun al-Dulame, director of the Iraq Center for Research and Strategic Studies, a Baghdad think tank and polling center. Dulame's organization's polls showed that Iraqis backed Allawi as an individual politician, but supported more fervently the Alliance and its ultimate leader, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

The Jan. 30 election, while officially a vote for a national assembly to choose an interim government and draft a constitution, turned out to be more a referendum on religion than politics, Dulame said.

It was a dynamic that Allawi did not see until it was too late, he added.

Allawi's campaign also made some tactical errors. He campaigned mainly using TV, for example, although erratic power supplies and poverty made it impossible for many Iraqis, especially in the Shiite south, to watch TV. The Shiite faithful often got their news and commentary about politics from their mosques - not places where Allawi, who lives in the American-patrolled Green Zone behind massive concrete walls and American tanks, had much visibility.

For that matter, when Allawi cast his vote, he wore a navy blazer and khaki pants that would not have looked out of place at a U.S. country club brunch. Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, the man in the top slot of the Alliance's list, cast his vote wearing a cleric's robe and black turban denoting his lineage to the prophet Mohammed.

As interim prime minister, Allawi gave the green light for U.S. troops to roll into the holy Shiite Muslim cities of Najaf and Karbala. He did the same, without apology, to the Sunni towns of Samarra and Fallujah.

"He represented powerful authority over the people, but not WITH the people," said Amer Fayadh, a political science professor at Baghdad University and a political candidate on a secular list of technocrats.

"Allawi's government hit Najaf, Karbala, Fallujah and Sadr City. And through those offensives he lost his credibility among the people."

As rumors of his disappointing performance seeped out this week, Allawi and his staff became hard for reporters to find. They turned off their cell phones.

Hussein al-Sadr, a candidate on Allawi's list, sounded bitter when asked about the Alliance's progress.

"Those who voted for Allawi list are the intellectual and educated people," he said. "The majority of the naive and simple people voted for UIA because they were under the influence of (clerics)."

Hussain Shahristani, who helped form the Alliance ticket, scoffed when asked about Allawi's future in Iraqi politics.

"A lot of people have buried it," he said. "There are a lot of perceptions that he is the U.S.-backed candidate."

Although Allawi's been working furiously on a deal that would have him remain prime minister, he's not on the newly powerful Iraqi Alliance's list of candidates.

Several people in Allawi's camp said on Sunday that he is already looking to December, when elections for the permanent prime minister will be held.

They would not say whether he planned to remain a secular candidate.

---

(Knight Ridder Newspapers Special Correspondent Huda Ahmed contributed to this report from Baghdad.)

---

© 2005, Knight Ridder/Tribune Information Services.
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 05:55 pm
I remember back when I used to post here more often there were something like thirty posts per page. Now it's down to about ten. Did they change the format, and if so, can I change it back somehow? Clicking through several pages to get the gist of a discussion is really annoying.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 06:00 pm
I like long pages best also.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 06:17 pm
IronLionZion wrote:
I remember back when I used to post here more often there were something like thirty posts per page. Now it's down to about ten. Did they change the format, and if so, can I change it back somehow? Clicking through several pages to get the gist of a discussion is really annoying.


I seem to recall they changed the display to 10 posts a page for the folks on dial-up.

Yes, it discourages reading back (as if that needed additional discouragement).
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 06:32 pm
One thing is the Iraqis turning out to vote to build democracy, ican, another thing is equating the US' enabler role in Iraqi democracy with the US' use of Iraq as a front so that the US itself doesn't become a front.

It wasn't necessary to open Iraq to terrorism in order for them to build a democracy there. Those two objectives are necessarily counterproductive: to use a country as a war front, and to try to establish a democracy there simultaneously. So, to keep Iraq as a war front, it would be in the US' interests that Iraq never becomes a democracy that effectively deals with its terrorism, a terrorism that is being waged for internal, nationalist reasons. If Iraq ever effectively deals with its terrorism, or if the terrorists win and drive us out, we'd have to go looking for another country in which to create another war front, another place for the "terrorists to make a stand," to continue to make us feel more secure.

The French didn't open the colonies up to terrorism in their assistance thereof.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 06:32 pm
Quote:
(as if that needed additional discouragement).


cute
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 06:35 pm
I was going for my stock-in-trade: smart-alecky.

Of course, maybe that's what you meant by 'cute'... :wink:
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 08:45 pm
Hamburger, good post. It is true as you say that elections in different parts of the world mean totally different things. It will be months or years before we understand the allegiances, tribal or otherwise, that will come of the Iraqi election.

I'd give a lot to know what behind-the-scenes stuff is going on about secular vs clerical influence in positions of power.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 09:55 pm
Let the dickering begin........

Quote:

1. Distribution of Seats in Iraqi Parliament Al-Haya...
Distribution of Seats in Iraqi Parliament

Al-Hayat [Arabic link] has printed the number of seats won by all the small parties in the Iraqi elections. The total number of seats is 275. What it shows is that the religious Shiites easily have a majority if they pull in a few small parties. I count 6 obvious Shiite seats that could be picked up by the UIA for most votes important to religious Shiites. That would give them 50.5 percent of the vote. They'd just need one or two other independents to win most votes.

AFP is convinced that the UIA may all by itself be given 140 seats, not 133, because of a "complex counting system" to be employed in seating delegates. Andrew Arato writes, "This would be so, because wasted votes for very small parties . . . would have to redivided. Say it is 8%. 48% of that is 4%. Even of 5 half is 2.5% that would put them over." If this procedure yields an extra percentage to the UIA, and if we add in the religious Shiite tiny parties, the UIA could well have a comfortable majority in the parliament.

United Iraqi Alliance (Shiite): 133 seats
Kurdish Alliance: 71
Iraqiya (Allawi = Secular Shiites) 38
Iraqiyyun (al-Yawir= Sunni Arabs) 5
Turkmen Front of Iraq 3
Cadres and the Chosen (Sadrist Shiites) 3
People's Union (Communist) 3
Kurdish Islamic Coalition 2
Organization of Islamic Action (Shiite) 2
Democratic National Alliance (Abd Faisal Ahmad) 1
National Mesopotamian List (Christian) 1
Welfare and Liberation Bloc (Mash'an al-Juburi, Sunni) 1
Caucus for Iraqi National Unity (Nahru Muhammad Abdul Karim, Sunni) 1
Independent Democrats (Adnan Pachachi, Sunni) 1
Iraqi Islamic Party (Muhsin Abdul Hamid, Sunni; had withdrawn) 1
Islamic Dawa Movement (splinter of Dawa, headed by Adil Majid) 1
Iraqi National Caucus (Husain Muhammad Abdullah) 1
Constitutional Monarchy Movement (Sharif Ali b. Husain) 1
Royal Iraqi Hashimi Caucus (Sharif Ma'mul al-Naysan) 1
National Democratic Alliance (Malik Duhan al-Hasan) 1
Democratic Iraqi Caucus (Ahmad Jabir Abdullah) 1
National Front for Iraqi Unity 1
Sun, Feb 13, 2005 11:49
0 Replies
 
 

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