0
   

THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 07:11 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
Do we, ican?
I do, InfraBlue!
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 07:23 pm
And do you think the Iraqis think it's comparable?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 07:41 pm
ALSO
Kara wrote:
... Clarke had many and detailed recommendations on how to deal with terrorism, everything from infiltrating known terrorist training camps in Afghanistan to providing more and better intel and agents. He never suggested that we declare war and attempt to invade, so he answered the question honestly. One does not have to invade a country to win a war.
True! We won the cold-war with the USSR without invading the USSR. But the USSR while threatening to "bury" us never shot at us, nor did they harbor mass murderers who threatened and did murder us.

The idea that we can defeat the terrorists without invading the countries that harbor them (remember, only 19 were required to kill 3,000 on 9/11/2001) is not presently credible to me. While Clarke's recommendations can help rid us of terrorists at their many many destinations, I think it easier and far more productive to rid ourselves of terrorists at their relatively few origins by invading them at their origins. We should determine how successful the Russians, French and Germans are at ridding themselves of terrorists at their destinations without invading them at their origins, before we decide to try their way of dealing with their terrorist problem.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 07:48 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
And do you think the Iraqis think it's comparable?
Yes! They demonstrated that by their amazing life risking voter turnout as a first step toward designing and building their own democracy. They know they would not have had that privilege unless someone did for them what we did for them, and indeed what the French did for us (motivated by enlightened self-interest) in the 18th Century. Without the help of the French we would have needed a miracle to get the British to surrender.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 08:37 pm
Quote:
It wasn't suppressed until after the election. It was released after the election.

And why do you suppose only that part was released after the election and not before?

Quote:
Had it been released prior to the election what effect do you think it would have had on the election? I think zero.


My guess is as good as yours. I think it would have had a profound effect but probably too late to stop the Don't change horses in the middle of a war mentality.

Quote:
What do you think Vice-president "Negotiate", or Senator "Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time," would have done if instead he were elected back in 2000?


If you mean What if Gore had been elected (or appointed)? We would not have attacked Iraq, is what I think. Negotiation always leaves room for action. Hasty pre-emptive war leaves no fall-back position.

It is a logical fallacy to say that, "If things had been done differently, the outcome would be X." No one knows, because the scenario did not play out. I feel strongly that if Gore had been prez, he would not have rushed to war. He would not have indicted three countries as axes of evil -- Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. That pronouncement set the stage for all that has happened since.

If you were one of those countries, what would have been your reaction? Then one of them, Iraq, was attacked and trashed. Aha. Wake up call. We are next. Let's hustle up those nukes. Our only chance. If I were Iran or North Korea, I would have reacted just the way they have.

The Europeans have it right. We could learn a lot from Old Europe.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 08:43 pm
Quote:
True! We won the cold-war with the USSR without invading the USSR. But the USSR while threatening to "bury" us never shot at us, nor did they harbor mass murderers who threatened and did murder us.


Neither did Saddam Hussein. He was being contained. He never shot at us. Nor did he harbour mass murderers, although he was himself one. Such people can be taken care of without war. Richard Clarke knew lots of ways and told us about them.

If you want to discuss radical and fundamentalist Islam, now that I will talk about. That discussion has nothing to do with Iraq -- or very little, except for the fact that our invasion provided a vacuum that sucked in every radical within thousands of miles.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Feb, 2005 09:38 pm
Quote:
Kara, try what Pdiddle suggested ..... put some peanut butter on his nose ...


virtual or actual peebee? Sheesh, my magic will only lift so much weight.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 02:33 am
Quote:
Iraq's election commission expected to announce final results


Baghdad, Feb 13, SPA -- Iraqi election commission officials
are expected to announce final results from the landmark
Jan. 30 balloting at a news conference Sunday.
The news conference is scheduled for 1300 GMT.
Election commission spokesman, Farid Ayar, said on
Al-Arabiya television Saturday night that the commission
would meet Sunday morning to finalize some unspecified
issues and then announce the final figures in the
afternoon. The results will be considered official after a
three-day period.
--SPA

1116 Local Time
0816 GMT
Source
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 02:45 am
It might be of interest to some (of course not a certain poster :wink: ) to read this PDF-file The Osiraq Myth and the Track Record of Preventive Military Attacks (from the Ridgway Center for International Security Studies, University of Pittsburgh)

Quote:
"The 1981 Israeli aerial Strike on Iraqi nuclear facilities at Osiraq is frequently cited as a successful use of preventive military force, and may be used to justify similar attacks in the future. However, closer examination of the Osiraq attack reveals that it did not substantially delay the Iraqi nuclear program and may have even hastened it. Attempts to replicate the 'success' at Osiraq are likely to do even worse, as proliferating states are now routinely dispersing and concealing their nuclear, biological, and chemical programs to decrease their vulnerability to air strikes. Given the poor track reacrod of preventive attacks in controlling the spread of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons, American interests will be best served in the future by embracing other tools of counterproliferation."
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 07:39 am
While stil waiting for the results from the press conference ...



Quote:

If you think the UN's oil-for-food program was leaky, take a look at the Coalition Provisional Authority's oil-for-reconstruction scheme.


Where Has Iraq's Money Gone?
By George Monbiot, AlterNet
Posted on February 10, 2005, Printed on February 13, 2005
http://www.alternet.org/story/21227/
The Republican senators who have devoted their careers to mauling the UN are seldom accused of shyness. But they went strangely quiet last Thursday. Henry Hyde became Henry Jekyll. Norm Coleman's mustard turned to honey. Convinced that the United Nations is a conspiracy against the sovereignty of the United States, they had been ready to launch the attack which would have toppled the hated Kofi Annan and destroyed his organization. A report by Paul Volcker, the former chairman of the U.S. federal reserve, was meant to have proved that, as a result of corruption within the UN's oil-for-food program, Saddam Hussein was able to sustain his regime by diverting oil revenues into his own hands. But Volcker came up with something else.

"The major source of external financial resources to the Iraqi regime," he reported, "resulted from sanctions violations outside the [oil-for-food] Program's framework." These violations consisted of "illicit sales" of oil by the Iraqi regime to Turkey and Jordan. The members of the UN Security Council, including the United States, knew about them but did nothing. "United States law requires that assistance programs to countries in violation of United Nations sanctions be ended unless continuation is determined to be in the national interest. Such determinations were provided by successive United States administrations."

The government of the United States, in other words, though it had been informed about a smuggling operation which brought Saddam Hussein's regime some $4.6 billion, decided to let it continue. It did so because it deemed the smuggling to be in its national interest, as it helped friendly countries (Turkey and Jordan) evade the sanctions on Iraq.The biggest source of illegal funds to Saddam Hussein was approved not by officials of the United Nations but by officials in the United States. Strange to relate, neither Mr. Hyde nor Mr. Coleman have yet been bellyaching about it. But this isn't the half of it.

It is true that the UN's auditing should have been better. Some of the oil-for-food money found its way into Saddam Hussein's hands. One of its officials, with the help of a British diplomat, helped to ensure that a contract went to a British firm, rather than a French one. The most serious case involves an official called Benon Sevan, who is alleged to have channelled Iraqi oil into a company he favored, and who might have received $160,000 in return. Kofi Annan, the UN Secretary-General, has taken disciplinary action against both men, and promised to strip them of diplomatic immunity if they are charged. There could scarcely be a starker contrast to the way the United States has handled the far graver allegations against its own officials.

Four days before Paul Volcker reported his findings about Saddam Hussein, the U.S. Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction published a report about the Coalition Provisional Authority, the U.S. agency which governed Iraq between April 2003 and June 2004. The Inspector General's job is to make sure that the money the authority spent was properly accounted for. It wasn't. In just 14 months, $8.8 billion went absent without leave. This is more than Mobutu Sese Seko managed to steal in 32 years of looting Zaire. It is 55,000 times as much as Mr. Sevan is alleged to have been paid.

The Authority, the Inspector General found, was "burdened by severe inefficiencies and poor management." This is kind. Other investigations suggest that it was also burdened by false accounting, fraud and corruption.

Last week a British adviser to the Iraqi Governing Council told the BBC's File on Four program that officials in the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) were demanding bribes of up to $300,000 in return for awarding contracts. Iraqi money seized by U.S. forces simply disappeared. Some $800 million was handed out to U.S. commanders without being counted or even weighed. A further $1.4 billion was flown from Baghdad to the Kurdish regional government in the town of Irbil, and has never been seen since.

The CPA awarded contracts to U.S. companies without any financial safeguards. They were issued without competition, in the form of "cost-plus" deals. This means that the companies were paid for the expenses they incurred, plus a percentage of those expenses in the form of profit. They had a powerful incentive, in other words, to spend as much money as possible. As a result, the authority appears to have obtained appalling value for money. Auditors at the Pentagon, for example, allege that, in the course of just one contract, a subsidiary of Halliburton overcharged it for imported fuel by $61 million. This appears to have been officially sanctioned.

In November, The New York Times obtained a letter from an officer in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers insisting that she would not "succumb to the political pressures from the ... U.S. Embassy to go against my integrity and pay a higher price for fuel than necessary." She was overruled by her superiors, who issued a memo insisting that the prices the company was charging were "fair and reasonable," and that it wouldn't be asked to provide the figures required to justify them.

Other companies appear to have charged the authority for work they never did, or to have paid sub-contractors to do it for them for a fraction of what they were paid by the CPA. Yet, even when confronted by cast-iron evidence of malfeasance, the authority kept employing them. When the Inspector-General recommended that the US army withhold payments from companies which appear to have overcharged it, it ignored him. No one has been charged or punished. The U.S. Department of Justice refuses to assist the whistleblowers who are taking these companies to court.

What makes all this so serious is that more than half of the money the CPA was giving away did not belong to the U.S. government but to the people of Iraq. Most of it was generated by the coalition's sales of oil. If you think the UN's oil-for-food program was leaky, take a look at the CPA's oil-for-reconstruction scheme. Throughout the entire period of CPA rule, there was no metering of the oil passing through Iraq's pipelines, which means that there was no way of telling how much of the country's wealth the authority was extracting, or whether it was paying a fair price for it. The CPA, according to the international monitoring body charged with auditing it, was also "unable to estimate the amount of petroleum ... that was smuggled."

The authority was plainly breaching UN resolutions. As Christian Aid points out, the CPA's distribution of Iraq's money was supposed to have been subject to international oversight from the beginning. But no auditors were appointed until April 2004: just two months before the CPA's mandate ran out. Even then, they had no power to hold it to account or even to ask it to cooperate. But enough information leaked out to suggest that $500 million of Iraqi oil money might have been "diverted" (a polite word for nicked) to help pay for the military occupation.

I hope that Messrs Hyde and Coleman won't stop asking whether Iraqi oil money has been properly spent. But perhaps we shouldn't be surprised if their agreeable silence persists.
Source
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 07:43 am
The results for the Transitoinal National Assembly (and the six -until now missing- Governorates as well as those for the Kurdistan Assembly are published just now.


... and the violence is up to the level seen in Iraq before the election.


Obviously, the Shiites didn't get as said before 60% but 'only' 47.6 percent of the Iraq vote.
A coalition of the two main Kurdish parties won 25.4 percent and a bloc led by Interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi got 13.6 percent.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 08:09 am
Kara wrote:
Quote:
Kara, try what Pdiddle suggested ..... put some peanut butter on his nose ...


virtual or actual peebee? Sheesh, my magic will only lift so much weight.


Why not try
a metaphysical spread?
taste so yummy
on metaphysical bread
the incantation's easy
three words are said
Ican ... Proboscis ..... Pb
then
crunchy please

Or if you don't mind the mess you could just spread the pb on his icon
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 08:32 am
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 08:38 am
The other side

Quote:
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 10:24 am
Quote:
Or if you don't mind the mess you could just spread the pb on his icon


Smile Smile

Love the pome, D.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 10:44 am
PROVISIONAL RESULTS
Shia list: 48%
Kurdish list: 26%
Iyad Allawi list: 14%
Others: 12%
Turnout: 58%
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 12:13 pm
Well, I could be showing my ignorance but how in the world do the numbers add up correctly and be balanced by the turnout?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 12:38 pm
48%
26%
14%
12%
100%

I don't understand your question about the turnout. (As far as I understand this number, 58% out those, who registered, voted.)
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 12:48 pm
revel wrote:
Well, I could be showing my ignorance but how in the world do the numbers add up correctly and be balanced by the turnout?


That chore was contracted by Haliburton who then sub-contracted the duties to a firm in Florida called 'Harris voter tabulation" Little is known in regard to HVT whose motto is reported to be "Get over it"
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 12:56 pm
walter

thanks kindly for the CPA piece.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.07 seconds on 07/18/2025 at 12:24:30