0
   

THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 06:15 pm
dyslexia wrote:
vote early, vote often, vote Kucinich.


Laughing Hey, rascal!
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 06:17 pm
Quote:
I hope the vote goes well. Let's hear it for the brave Iraqis. The election workers and the candidates are worthy of the highest respect.


I am with you, McTag. Those who vote will be brave indeed. I heard an interesting hour on NPR today about the lists and what the vote really means. Too little of this has been in the US press. I hope that the turnout is large enough to make a statement.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 06:18 pm
hey X long time no see, did you miss me?
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 06:19 pm
dyslexia wrote:
hey X long time no see, did you miss me?


Hayell yeah!
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 06:20 pm
Lash, yes, Kucinich was authentic.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 06:31 pm
Brand X wrote:
Yeah, in addition it takes someone who knows what reality is...I mean this guy was all...Gore is the one! Then it was Dean is the one! Then it was Kerry is the one!

He isn't exactly in touch with reality now is he. Laughing


Who are you attempting to denigrate here? Me? Raja Musa (the schoolteacher in the the article)? Someone else?

If it's me, then you just haven't been paying attention. For a long while. Or are making an assignment that is simply inaccurate (and off-topic, naturally).

Not sure I can dial in your reality...

Pay attention to the discussion. There's a view linked from an Iraqi in Iraq about the elections next week. Not conjecture, not wishful thinking in red, white and blue type, not "I heard on the radio..."

Geli's right. Why do we even bother trying to have an adult conversation with people who are incapable of it? <shrugs>
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 06:33 pm
PDiddie wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Yeah, in addition it takes someone who knows what reality is...I mean this guy was all...Gore is the one! Then it was Dean is the one! Then it was Kerry is the one!

He isn't exactly in touch with reality now is he. Laughing


Who are you attempting to denigrate here? Me? Raja Musa (the schoolteacher in the the article)? Someone else?

If it's me, then you just haven't been paying attention. For a long while. Or are making an assignment that is simply inaccurate (and off-topic, naturally).

Not sure I can dial in your reality...

Pay attention to the discussion. There's a view linked from an Iraqi in Iraq about the elections next week. Not conjecture, not wishful thinking in red, white and blue type, not "I heard on the radio..."

Geli's right. Why do we even bother trying to have an adult conversation with people who are incapable of it? <shrugs>


Aw, you did miss me...I'm all misty eyed now.

Hey PD! Laughing
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 06:35 pm
You'll have to admit--you've been incredibly WRONG about American politics...
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 06:37 pm
Lash wrote:
You'll have to admit--you've been incredibly WRONG about American politics...


Well, apparently that wasn't enough, now he wants to be wrong about Iraq politics too.

Like Gels said, I don't know why he even bothers.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 06:39 pm
Hey--when you're on a roll--
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 06:45 pm
Lash wrote:
You'll have to admit--you've been incredibly WRONG about American politics...


Needless to say, no.

Besides backing the wrong horse, what do you think I've been "incredibly WRONG" about? No, on second thought, don't answer that.

It's just going to take us into ad hominem territory again; and while that's real estate you have deed to, it just wouldn't be a good idea for us to go there. Why don't you stop now so I don't have to get all ugly on you (again)?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 07:03 pm
You got ugly on me?

And you're still here?

I have GOT to start using that Report button.

If you change your mind--and want to know what you've been wrong about--just let me know...

<tee>
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 07:22 pm
Election or not the Iraqis will survive.... look back to Sumeria .... but will we survive Bush? Iran is next, no question .... and I don't think N. Korea will wait on the outcome.
The worst part ...... Bush knew what to expect, if he listened at all to his father....
Quote:

Bush tells Gulf vets why Hussein left in Baghdad

by S. H. Kelly

Former President George Bush took the opportunity at the "8th Annual Reunion of Our Victory in the Desert" Feb. 28 to explain his reason for stopping Operation Desert Storm after 100 hours.

The mission was to eject Saddam Hussein from Kuwait, and that mission was accomplished, Bush told more than 200 Desert Storm veterans gathered for dinner Sunday night at Fort Myer, Va. Most of the veterans there had fought with VII Corps in the Gulf War which ended Feb. 27, 1991.

Bush said he didn't get into the business of second-guessing his military commanders when they told him the mission was complete.

Bush said he can understand those who say, "Why didn't you finish the job?" It burns me up, because we tried to finish the job -- peacefully," he explained, adding that he tried to do it with sanctions and by assuring Hussein that the coalition forces didn't want one single soldier sent in harms way.

It was only after all peaceful means failed, he said, "that we had to fight. We ended the war in, you ended it, what was it, a hundred hours."

"I'll never forget," he said, when Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Colin Powell "came over and said it was time to end the fighting -- mission accomplished. I said, 'Do [Gen. Norman] Schwarzkopf and the commanders agree.'"

Bush said that within 30 seconds Powell had Schwarzkopf on the phone assuring him that the mission had been accomplished.

"I don't believe in mission creep," he continued. "Had we gone into Baghdad -- we could have done it, you guys could have done it, you could have been there in 48 hours -- and then what?

"Which sergeant, which private, whose life would be at stake in perhaps a fruitless hunt in an urban guerilla war to find the most-secure dictator in the world?

"Whose life would be on my hands as the commander-in-chief because I, unilaterally, went beyond the international law, went beyond the stated mission, and said we're going to show our macho?" he asked. "We're going into Baghdad. We're going to be an occupying power -- America in an Arab land -- with no allies at our side. It would have been disastrous."

Bush said, "We don't gain the size of our victory by how many innocent kids running away -- even though they're bad guys -- that we can slaughter. ... We're American soldiers; we don't do business that way."

"Am I happy that S.O.B. is still there?" Bush asked, then answered, "No."

Bush said his memory of Vietnam influenced his thinking during the Gulf War. He recalled that politicians during the Vietnam War kept changing the conditions under which U.S. forces fought -- bombing halt
Quote:
s and cease-fires.

He said his view was different, and it was a view that was backed up by the secretary of defense and military leaders.

"Let the politicians do their diplomacy -- and we worked hard to bring about a peaceful solution. We didn't want any man or woman put into harm's way," Bush said.

"We worked hard to form an international coalition," he explained, calling it historic in originality, diversity.

"But once the military mission had been defined and the fighting begun, I thought we ought to get the hell out of the way and let the military fight the war and win, and that's exactly what you did. And God bless you for doing it," he said, gesturing to retired Gen. Frederick M. Franks Jr., who commanded VII Corps during Desert Storm.

Bush said the United States learned in World War II -- and learned it again before Operation Desert Storm -- that you can't appease an aggressor. "And had we gone for Saddam's ploys, had we capitulated to those advocating a more-passive course, had we relied totally on sanctions ... then we would have sent a signal of weakness to other would-be aggressors around the world," he said.

"But we didn't do that," he continued. "We were clear in our purpose from the start. And just for the record, we gave peace a chance. Between August and the time you had to go into battle, we gave it a chance.

"Once it was clear that our diplomacy had failed, that U.N. resolutions would not work, that Saddam had no interest in peace ... we did what we had to do -- no more, no less."

"We said this aggression would not stand," he said, adding that the soldiers kept his word.

"Three times when I was president, I was called upon to make a decision that only the president can make, and it's the toughest decision any president can make ... when you're going to send somebody else's kid into harm's way."

He said that, perhaps because of his own service in the military, the decision was never easy. He said it should never be easy for any commander-in-chief.

"The decision to go to war is one that defines a nation to the world, and perhaps more importantly, to itself."

He said that he knows he called on "all branches of our military to do some extraordinary things, but not once was I let down or was the country let down."

At the time of the collapse of the Soviet Union, he said, he was apprehensive that there was a lot that could go wrong with the situation in Central and Eastern Europe rapidly became more fluid. That, fortunately, did not happen, he said, and the confrontation -- the Cold War -- ended without a shot being fired.

Returning to the issue of Hussein's longevity, Bush jokingly called it "a sore spot with me" to be "out of work while Saddam Hussein still has a job. It's not fair," he asserted.

Still however, "he is no threat to invade another sovereign nation, and pillage its culture, and murder its citizens. He can brutalize his own people, and torment and torture them, but he can no longer pose a threat to his neighbors. And that's just one of the benefits" of Desert Storm.

"As a result of that historic victory, we also saw American credibility go up. You all did this," he said, gesturing to the assemblage.

Bush recalled Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Gorbachev calling him the second day of the bombings requesting a bombing halt. "'We have an arrangement with Saddam Hussein that he will leave the sands of Kuwait,' he said.

"We didn't need to consult," Bush explained. "I watched with horror bombing pauses of Vietnam when everybody kind of reinforced their positions, and our soldiers were the losers," Bush said.

"I said we don't need a bombing pause. He knows how he got in there -- all he's got to do is put his weapons down and walk out. Of course he wasn't prepared to do that at all," Bush said.

"In only a few times in America," Bush said, "does history present us the direct opportunity to shape the world we live in. And we can be proud that when our moment came eight years ago, we were ready.

"Looking forward, we can only hope that future generations will stand ready to take up the flag to preserve the legacy of leadership" left by the VII Corps and other units participating in the Gulf War. "We hope that generations to come will be ever mindful of President Eisenhower's observation that a soldier's path isn't so heavy a burden as a prisoner's chains," he concluded.

Sgt. 1st Class William F. Jackson Jr. and Master Sgt. Clistus B. Moon, both traveling to the reunion from Fort Stewart, Ga., shared the excitement of being singled out. Jackson said it was his first reunion. "I'm considering retirement right now, but I will make others if I get the chance."

It was also Moon's first Desert Storm reunion. He said he found out about it through the chaplains' office at Fort Stewart. "I'd like to see them publicize [the reunions] better," he said.

Jackson served with the 1st Engineer Battalion during Desert Storm. "We were responsible for breaching the Iraqi minefields for the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment," Jackson said. And Moon was in the 2nd ACR.

Before the speech, Bush had spent about 45 minutes socializing and taking pictures with dinner guests. After dinner, he helped present $2,000 scholarships to Jolanda R. Knowlin and Judith P. McCall-Moye, family members of VII Corps Desert Storm veterans.

The dinner was the last of three events honoring Desert Storm veterans in the National Capital Region Sunday. The first was a noon tribdied in the Gulf War. Schwarzkopf was the guest speaker. The other was a memorial service at Fort Myer's Memorial Chapel at which Franks was guest speaker.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 09:19 pm
NETWORKS SEND BIG GUNS TO IRAQI VOTE
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 09:24 pm
I'm glad they're considering it as important as it is.

They sure are plum targets for terrorists, though.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 09:26 pm
<Maybe the Marines will feed some bad intel to Dan Blather to "leak" to the terrorists>

And for the record, all the newspapers in Iraq refer to the "insurgents" as TERRORISTS!
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 09:40 pm
Maybe Kerry is embedded in with the reporters since he had a 'plan' to clear all that up anyway.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Jan, 2005 12:42 am
JustWonders wrote:


And for the record, all the newspapers in Iraq refer to the "insurgents" as TERRORISTS!

Since I don't know Arabic, I can't comment on this.

However, I do know that that the use of 'insurgent' and 'terrorist' in various not only in different languages but has a lot to do with with each one's political/historical/cultural point of view as well.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Jan, 2005 12:54 am
JustWonders wrote:
Dan Blather
Laughing Laughing Laughing http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/party/party-smiley-017.gif
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Jan, 2005 01:05 am
Quote:
Only one in four will cast vote, Iraqi minister warns
By Patrick Cockburn in Iraq
26 January 2005


Gunmen struck across Baghdad yesterday, killing 11 policemen and a judge, as senior politicians said they expected a low turnout in the election on 30 January.

The gaunt face of an American hostage pleading for his life was once more pictured on video, showing that Iraq remains a very dangerous place for foreigners. Roy Hallum, seized last November in Baghdad, said he was arrested by a "resistance group" because "I have worked with American forces". He added: "I am not asking for help from President Bush because I know of his selfishness and unconcern for those who have been pushed into this hell-hole."

Seven policemen were killed in an ambush in the Rashad district of Baghdad as they checked out a report of a car bomb. There was a gun battle in the same area when police opened fire on men handing out leaflets calling on people not to take part in the election.

Qais Hashim Shameri, the Secretary General of the judges' counsel in the Justice Ministry, died with his bodyguard on his way to work as his car was sprayed with bullets. The Ansar al-Sunna Army, an insurgent group, claimed responsibility, saying he was "one of the heads of the infidelity and apostasy of a new Iraqi government".

The government is planning exceptional security measures for the polls, which will include banning the movement of cars for three days. Voters must walk to cast their ballot and will not be allowed to leave their home district. Many businesses plan to close for five days.

Even so, political leaders suspect there will be a very low turnout. Ayham al-Samarrai, the Minister of Electricity, said yesterday "the vote all over Iraq might be only 25 per cent. I asked 18 senior managers in my ministry if they were going to vote; only one said he would."

The biggest turnout is likely to be in Iraqi Kurdistan, because the Kurds support the US presence and the interim government. It is also safe for them to go to polling stations. Shia voters in southern Iraq may also have little to fear, and Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the most revered Shia leader, has said that all Iraqis ought to vote.

But Baghdad and the Sunni Arab districts of northern Iraq are very dangerous. Many here will boycott the poll, seeing it as hopelessly tainted because it is taking place under the auspices of the US occupation. Mr Samarrai noted that "a police colonel working to protect our electrical power facilities called Nadir Hassan, along with his five-year-old daughter, were shot to death in their car this morning." He did not think people in middle-class suburbs in Baghdad would care to vote in the circumstances.

A reaction against the religious fanatics leading the Sunni resistance and the Shia religious parties is likely to benefit Iyad Allawi, the interim Prime Minister. "Allawi is now posing as the champion of secularism, though his list is a hotchpotch," Adnan Pachachi, the elder statesman of Iraqi politics and former Foreign Minister, said yesterday. He had sought to get the election postponed, largely because the Sunni community was infuriated by the bloody US assault on Fallujah last November.

Mr Pachachi believed the electoral coalitions, particularly the Shia list put together under the auspices of Grand Ayatollah Sistani, "will disintegrate after the elections". He expects the government that emerges to be similar to those in Lebanon, with a cabinet made up of representatives of different factions and communities.

The Iraqi government seems determined that, however limited its authority over Iraq, it will keep control of the hundreds of foreign journalists who have arrived to cover the election. Many were queuing up yesterday in the Convention Centre in the Green Zone for the required four types of identity card. Everybody entering the building was searched three times.

The willingness of the US government to provide space on helicopters to move journalists around the country shows that Washington is determined to present the election as a success. There is no doubt that many of the four million Kurds and 15 to 16 million Shias are eager to vote, but the poll is likely to crystallise their differences with the five million Sunni Arabs.

The armed resistance is now so experienced and entrenched that the election is unlikely to have much effect on it. Insurgents have distributed blood-curdling leaflets in Baghdad threatening to deluge polling stations with rockets and mortar fire. A voter "will not be able to imagine what will happen to him and his family for taking part in this crusader's conspiracy to occupy the land of Islam", they said.
Source
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