THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

Yes, there are similarities to Vietnam. Just as there are similarities to the Korean conflict, WW2, WW1, Balkans conflict, and every other war.

However, there are more differences to Vietnam than similarities. Some are just too defensive to admit that or too tied up in the propaganda to see it.

0 Replies

Though I don't typically attack sources, your last posting from the WSJ about Iraqi successes, Ican, is a little suspect. Why?

Quote:

Mr. Blackwell was President Bush's deputy national scurity adviser for strategic planning and also served as presidential envoy to Iraq. He is now president of Barbour Griffith & Rogers International, a lobbying firm.

The writer is basically a mouthpiece for the administration. The same administration which has made countless mistakes in judgement over the last few years (I'm sure you agree with this based upon past arguments....). Therefore; I wouldn't hold my breath that the predictions are, yaknow, accurate.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

I didn't think Kerry would win; I thought he was a loser from the very beginning - wrong candidate. No kareesema!

0 Replies

Deadpan doesn't play well in politics. You gotta smile like Ahnold.

0 Replies

McGentrix wrote:

Yes, there are similarities to Vietnam. Just as there are similarities to the Korean conflict, WW2, WW1, Balkans conflict, and every other war.

True enough.

But so what?

Quote:

However, there are more differences to Vietnam than similarities.

No, I don't think so...although I think many people, particularly the poor, deluded kneejerk conservatives, are just too defensive to admit that there are...or are too tied up in their right wing propaganda and ideology to see it.

Quote:

Some are just too defensive to admit that or too tied up in the propaganda to see it.

Oh, wow...what a coincidence!

Almost the same wording.

Except that you applied it to the wrong group.

0 Replies

I've always appreciated Frank's honesty, and I knew he'd answer that way.

I always get the feeling from his posts that although he sees the situation as bleak and parallel to Vietnam, he's hoping for a different outcome.

Perhaps others here feel the same, but it just doesn't always come across that way.

0 Replies

The big difference between Vietnam and Iraq is the simple fact that we didn't try to push democracy onto the Vietnamese people - a futile goal. Many Bush supporters think an election equates to democracy. They couldn't be more worng.

0 Replies

ican711nm wrote:

revel wrote:
Ican when did the US ask Saddam to get rid of AQ in the no fly zone time frame?

Quote:
D. To the UN, Colin Powell alleged, 2/5/2003:
OLD: www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2003/17300pf.htm
NEW: www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2003/17300.htm

1. Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network headed by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi an associate and collaborator of Usama bin Laden and his al-Qaida lieutenants.

2. When our coalition ousted the Taliban, the Zarqawi network helped establish another poison and explosive training center camp, and this camp is located in northeastern Iraq. ||| Those helping to run this camp are Zarqawi lieutenants operating in northern Kurdish areas outside Saddam Hussein's controlled Iraq. But Baghdad has an agent in the most senior levels of the radical organization Ansar al-Islam that controls this corner of Iraq. In 2000, this agent offered al-Qaida safe haven in the region. After we swept al-Qaida from Afghanistan, some of those members accepted this safe haven. They remain there today.

3. We asked a friendly security service to approach Baghdad about extraditing Zarqawi and providing information about him and his close associates. This service contacted Iraqi officials twice and we passed details that should have made it easy to find Zarqawi. The network remains in Baghdad. Zarqawi still remains at large, to come and go.

Note: These three excerpts from the speech of Powell's to the UN 2/5/03, constituted a third contact of Iraqi officials. The US invaded Iraq 3/20/03.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO405B.html

(I don't know if I go so far as to guess at the motives of those seeking war like the article, but the article is full of contradictions and lies from Colin Powell to the UN and so his speech is discredited imo)

0 Replies

revel, Thanks for looking into Powell's speech to the UN (and the world) in February 2003 where he lied with impunity. I remember many media accounts that challenged his claims after his speech, but more notably when we didn't find any WMDs after our preemptive attack. The guy lost too much credibility, and he was another sacrificial lamb of the Bush admin.

0 Replies

JustWonders wrote:

I've always appreciated Frank's honesty, and I knew he'd answer that way.

Thanks, JW.

Quote:

I always get the feeling from his posts that although he sees the situation as bleak and parallel to Vietnam, he's hoping for a different outcome.

With every fiber of my body...with every good intention I can muster.

There are even times where I want to "whistle a happy tune"...and try to convince myself to be more optimistically. But right now...it would be a sham...and I think there is more than enough "kidding of self" going around.

It is my opinion that every cloud has a silver lining. I will keep looking.

For the record...David Brooks op-ed column in the NY Times was probably one of the best for the "things can work out" position. Hope you read it. Take a look here.

0 Replies

Frank Apisa wrote:

Except that you applied it to the wrong group.

I guess my poor, deluded, kneejerk reaction to this would be that there's only one "group" that matters.

So far, I haven't seen overwhelming evidence that the men and women participating in the struggle in Iraq see it as being "Vietnam all over again". Quite the contrary, but then I haven't spoken to every single person serving there.

0 Replies

Great article, Frank, thanks. I'd seen the poll numbers in a few other places, and that's what continues to give me hope regarding the Iraqis' doing their part in all of this.

0 Replies

JW - you don't have to speak to everyone in Iraq to see the same question looming there as did in Vietnam, to wit: "What is the definition of "winning this war" here"????

Pls drop any platitudes about "spreading democracy" and suchlike nonsense - our Marines are turning into hamburger in the deserts much as they did in caves in Khe-San. If you have an answer to the basic question above I certainly wish to hear it.

0 Replies

HofT, with that attitude, I suspect anything I could offer at this point would only be seen as "platitudes".

My point was that I don't get the impression from those serving that they share Frank's (and apparently your) opinion that the war in Iraq is a mirror image of Vietnam.

0 Replies

Allawi has now changed his tune about the January 30 elections - or has he? Is this really democracy?
*************

Allawi Says Parts of Iraq May Not Be Secure Enough to Vote
By TERENCE NEILAN

Published: January 11, 2005

Some areas of Iraq will probably not be secure enough to take part in the Jan. 20 elections, Prime Minister Ayad Allawi said today, even as he announced plans to increase the size of Iraq's army from 100,000 to more than 150,000 amid continuing attacks by insurgents.

Hostile forces are trying to hinder the security situation and hamper the "guarantee for the participation of all in the election," Dr. Allawi said.

0 Replies

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/01/10/news/brits.html

Quote:

Ukraine to pull all 1,600 troops from Iraq
Reuters [/size]

Another one bites the dust.

But don't forget about Poland.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

JustWonders wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Except that you applied it to the wrong group.

I guess my poor, deluded, kneejerk reaction to this would be that there's only one "group" that matters.

So far, I haven't seen overwhelming evidence that the men and women participating in the struggle in Iraq see it as being "Vietnam all over again".

My guess is that the young men and women participating are every bit as indoctrinated with the propaganda the military, of necessity, must instill in every fighting person. And, being young, they tend, I am sure, toward altruism....and toward certainty of victory of some kind.

But...I suggest that many of the young men and women participating in Vietnam during that war didn't realize what a hopeless quagmire they had been thrown into...right up untill the day we started evacuating Saigon.

That is just the way things work when you are fighting a way.

The least convincing argument that we are not in another Vietnam...is that the people fighting the war don't think we are.

In fact, one of the many things this war shares with Vietnam...is that very thing!

0 Replies

It's likely pleasurable to whistle in the dark but sometimes it bites one in the ass. I don't believe Bush is that happy about being re-elected. Now, as Bill Maher has stated, he has to clean up his own mess. What fools these mortals be. Puck must be glaring down on the Bush adminstration as the epitome of the Shakesperean tragedy.

0 Replies

Ok Frank...

Where's the opposing army we fought in Vietnam?
Where's the jungle the enemy hid in?
Where's the world power supplying arms and ammo to the opposing army?
Where's the divide between the armies?
Where's the threat to democracy?
Where's the huge death toll?
Where's the crowd's of people spitting on our soldiers?
Where's the enemy supply lines?
Where's the draft?
Where's the support for the enemy from outside nations?
Which part of Iraq can US forces not operate in?
Where are the enemy POW camps?

War is hell. Every war can be compared to the next and there will always be comparisons made. But to keep using the Vietnam battle cry is nothing more than a false sentiment that tries to bolster oppostion to the war.

0 Replies

Nah, it's just that we've shown a tendency to win certain types of war, and lose others.

What's the tactic to use against a vastly superior force? Guerilla tactics. Wear them down. Hit and run. Blend in. Exactly what is being done to us. Last time we fought in such conditions, we lost resoundingly by underestimating the enemy. We seem to be doing the same thing now. This worries people.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know