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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 09:11 am
No...it is not "forever", McTag.

We will be rid of this slime that has infected our body politic...and we will regain our composure.

When we do...the change will be evident to all...and it is my opinion, that America will be counted as a positive force on our planet...rather than an out-of-control schoolyard bully run by stupid, arrogant, simpleminded people.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 09:28 am
Responding to Hamburger's post: even before President Bush used the term "crusade", we were already known as "crusaders" in the assorted texts issued by Osama bin Laden. See e.g. his "Declaration of War" published in the late 1990s (and sadly ignored, even by the specialists) in which he declares war on "Jews and Crusaders".

That is no argument in favor of usage of the word by President Bush, simply a factual observation.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 11:20 am
HofT wrote : " even before President Bush used the term "crusade", we were already known as "crusaders" in the assorted texts issued by Osama bin Laden. " (it seems to me that osama was stating from history, was he not ?) ... so it would have been advisable not to use the word "crusade', since it confirmed to muslims what osama had told them. what a fine job to play into his hands ! ... have been doing a little more reding in longman's 'world history' re. crusades. the article concludes : 'despite individual gallantry and devotion, much of the history of the crusades is an inglorious chronicle of jealousy, greed and treachery; and their chief modern historian (sir steven runciman) has summarised them as "a long act of intolerance in the name of god" '. ... hmm, trying to think if anything similar happened more recently; still trying to figure it out ??? ... btw. the book was published in 1985. hbg
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au1929
 
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Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 11:32 am
The crusades the cruelty and intolerance of religion at work. Things have not changed one iota since. And as long as man allows religion to command his attention it never will.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 11:49 am
Hamburger - please follow your own reasoning to see why you're contradicting yourself:

1. either Osama was right in his nomenclature, or he was not.
2. if he was, and you do provide serious arguments to this effect, then
3. is your objection to President Bush's statement that he was telling the truth?

Of course it may be that you object to telling the truth generally; that would neatly eliminate the contradiction in your paragraph.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 11:57 am
HofT : my understanding is that the crusades did take place. are you telling us that the current "war" in iraq is not a war but again a "crusade" (call it a war under the cross, if you want to)? hbg
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 12:04 pm
au1929 wrote:
The crusades the cruelty and intolerance of religion at work. Things have not changed one iota since. And as long as man allows religion to command his attention it never will.
Source
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 12:17 pm
McG, There are black stains against most religions of this world. As for the catholic church, we only need to look at recent history to see how many of its preists have defiled thousands of children for which they kept secret for too long.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 12:20 pm
McG has a point, Hamburger: the entire history of the late Byzantine Empire was a struggle against the encroaching armies of Islam. The Crusades for the most part weakened Byzantium instead of helping it, so there's no simple answer along the lines of "cross vs. curved sword", or "us and them", if you prefer.

AU 1929 would know the answer to this: isn't it the case that the Jews during those centuries sided with Islam? At least that was Isabella's explanation for ordering their expulsion from Spain after the fall of Constantinople.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 12:20 pm
Mcg
The crusades were the result of Christian religious fervor and fanaticism. That fervor manifested itself against all who were not Christian. Many Jewish communities were decimated by these righteous people in the name of their religion on the way to the holy land as well. That aside, my point was that nothing has changed killings, massacres and wars continue to be waged under the banner of religion.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 12:24 pm
au1929 wrote:
The crusades the cruelty and intolerance of religion at work. Things have not changed one iota since. And as long as man allows religion to command his attention it never will.


au1929 wrote:
Mcg
The crusades were the result of Christian religious fervor and fanaticism. That fervor manifested itself against all who were not Christian. Many Jewish communities were decimated by these righteous people in the name of their religion on the way to the holy land as well. That aside, my point was that nothing has changed killings, massacres and wars continue to be waged under the banner of religion.


Misconceptions about the Crusades are all too common. The Crusades are generally portrayed as a series of holy wars against Islam led by power-mad popes and fought by religious fanatics.Source

Perhaps you should read the whole article...
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 12:36 pm
Hoft wrote
Quote:
AU 1929 would know the answer to this: isn't it the case that the Jews during those centuries sided with Islam? At least that was Isabella's explanation for ordering their expulsion from Spain after the fall of Constantinople.


Don't know, have never heard any that would even suggest that being a factor. However, considering that was after the crusades and the Catholic church had infected Europe with rampant Anti Semitism I could well understand if they sided with Islam. Again I do not know that was a factor. I doubt it since all a Jew had to do was to convert.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 12:41 pm
au, did you bother reading the article I linked to?

Quote:
The Crusades were wars, so it would be a mistake to characterize them as nothing but piety and good intentions. Like all warfare, the violence was brutal (although not as brutal as modern wars). There were mishaps, blunders, and crimes. These are usually well-remembered today. During the early days of the First Crusade in 1095, a ragtag band of Crusaders led by Count Emicho of Leiningen made its way down the Rhine, robbing and murdering all the Jews they could find. Without success, the local bishops attempted to stop the carnage. In the eyes of these warriors, the Jews, like the Muslims, were the enemies of Christ. Plundering and killing them, then, was no vice. Indeed, they believed it was a righteous deed, since the Jews' money could be used to fund the Crusade to Jerusalem. But they were wrong, and the Church strongly condemned the anti-Jewish attacks.

Fifty years later, when the Second Crusade was gearing up, St. Bernard frequently preached that the Jews were not to be persecuted:

Ask anyone who knows the Sacred Scriptures what he finds foretold of the Jews in the Psalm. "Not for their destruction do I pray," it says. The Jews are for us the living words of Scripture, for they remind us always of what our Lord suffered.... Under Christian princes they endure a hard captivity, but "they only wait for the time of their deliverance."

Nevertheless, a fellow Cistercian monk named Radulf stirred up people against the Rhineland Jews, despite numerous letters from Bernard demanding that he stop. At last Bernard was forced to travel to Germany himself, where he caught up with Radulf, sent him back to his convent, and ended the massacres


Now stop with this Catholic anti-semitism crap. Individuals actions cannot be allowed to represent the whole.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 12:42 pm
An aside about the above mentioned A Concise History of the Crusades:

Quote:
This Concise History will prove an excellent, economical addition to most libraries. Some caution should be made about suggesting it to undergraduates in isolation. Read alongside some of the titles reviewed in the critical bibliography this text would be a solid start. Attention should particularly be paid to reading something extra on the Reconquista in Spain and one of the more recent works on the social history of the Crusades. Without a little extra reading, it would be difficult to follow current discussions on the Crusades unless one understood something about Madden's "periphery."
Source
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 12:52 pm
And then there's still current news.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/29/international/middleeast/29cnd-iraq.html?ex=1262062800&en=e1e2bd9261e97929&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 03:48 pm
McGentrix
I beg to differ with you. Anti Semitism in Europe was the Child of the Catholic Church.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 03:56 pm
Just the facts please: did Jews side with Islam (specifically at the time the Ottoman Empire) before the fall of Constantinople or not?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 04:04 pm
In Iraq, a clear-cut bin Laden-Zarqawi alliance

Audiotape of Al Qaeda leader, released Tuesday, coincided with deadly insurgent attacks.

By Dan Murphy | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

AMMAN, JORDAN – The connection between Osama bin Laden and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was cemented with Mr. bin Laden's latest taped statement on Tuesday, in which he praised the Jordanian militant and said anyone who participates in Iraq's Jan. 30 election will be considered an infidel and fair game for attack. When Mr. Zarqawi's terrorist movement emerged in Iraq more than a year ago, intelligence analysts saw it as separate from Al Qaeda, with more ferocious rhetoric than the better-known terror group and a willingness to kill large numbers of Muslim civilians.
But now, the US and its allies face a grave and growing threat: an alliance of mutual interests and convenience between the group that carried out the 9/11 attacks in the United States and the one that has contributed so much to Iraq's chaos.

"There were certainly some differences between bin Laden and Zarqawi,'' says Rohan Gunaratna, a terrorism expert at Singapore's Institute of Defense and Strategic Studies. "But these differences were minor compared to the biggest things they have in common - their desire to hit at the US."

Continued at:
http://csmonitor.com/2004/1230/p01s03-woiq.html


For this we owe the good offices of our compassionate leader a vote of thanks. He has managed to get the terrorists to present a common front.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 04:13 pm
HofT wrote:
Just the facts please: did Jews side with Islam (specifically at the time the Ottoman Empire) before the fall of Constantinople or not?

excuse my ignorance here, what is this relevant to?
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 04:26 pm
To HofT's question-- I don't think so. Fresh from a Western Civ class--and didn't hear anything about Jews siding with Muslims. Heard a lot about Christians and Muslims killing Jews, though.

I found this--

There were also a large number of Jews living in the Byzantine world. However, the Romans had considered the Jews in comparison to Christians to be narrow, dogmatic, and intolerant people, and had little love for them. Under Roman law Jews had legal protection as long as they did not proselytize among Christians, build new synagogues, or attempt to enter public office. Whereas Justinian adopted a policy of voluntary Jewish conversion, the later emperors ordered all Jews to be baptized, and granted tax breaks to those who voluntarily complied. Neither effort was successful in converting the Jews of the Empire.

------
Earlier, you said something about the Spanish Inquisition re Jews. They were killed for the same old reason they're always killed. They're Jews. (Does it every time.)

They were given an opportunity to convert, as the excerpt above says--but were disbelieved and killed again. The massacre was stopped for a while, as the Spanish noticed they were killing the best doctors and businessmen. They were plucked out and the murder started again.
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