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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 08:36 am
it would also be good to see Sistani say "George Bush is just wrong, vote for Iraqs' future"
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 08:50 am
How it comes down ......


Quote:

Informed Comment

Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion Juan Cole is Professor of History at the University of Michigan
1. Bin Laden votes in Iraq and Shoots himself in the ...
Bin Laden votes in Iraq and Shoots himself in the Foot

Usamah Bin Laden's latest video was broadcast on al-Jazeera on Monday, in which he commanded Muslims to boycott the January 30 elections in Iraq, and expressed his approval of Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Zarqawi had been a rival of Bin Laden's in Afghanistan and had earlier declined to share resources with al-Qaeda. But in recent months al-Zarqawi changed the name of his group from Monotheism and Holy war to Mesopotamian al-Qaeda, and pledged fealty to Bin Laden.

In declaring "infidels" all who vote under the "infidel" interim constitution negotiated by Iraqi politicians with US civil administrator Paul Bremer last winter, Bin Laden is seeking to counter the decree of grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani that Iraqis must vote in the upcoming elections or they will be consigned to hell. Bin Laden is arguing, according to the Aljazeera.net in Arabic, that the interim constitution that is the framework for elections is artificial and pagan ("jahili", pertaining to the Age of Ignorance before Islam) because it does not recognize Islam as the sole source of law.

Bin Laden's intervention in Iraq was hamfisted and clumsy, and will benefit the United States and the Shiites enormously. Most Iraqi Muslims, Sunni or Shiite, dislike the Wahhabi branch of Islam prevalent in Saudi Arabia, and with which Bin Laden is associated. Nationalistic Iraqis will object to a foreigner interfering in their national affairs.

Zarqawi is widely hated in Iraq because the operations of his group often kill innocent Iraqis as opposed to American troops. The Shiites in particular despise Zarqawi, and are aware of his hopes of provoking a Sunni-Shiite bloodbath in Iraq. (The muted Shiite response to the US assault on Fallujah in November and December derived in large part from a conviction that the city had become a base for Zarqawi and like-minded Salafi terrorists). Zarqawi websites have claimed credit for the assassination in 2003 of Ayatollah Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim, a respected Shiite leader, which involved descrating the Shiite holy city of Najaf. The mainstream of the Kurds hates Zarqawi, because of his earlier association with the small Kurdish radical Muslim terrorist group, Ansar al-Islam, which targeted the two major Kurdish parties.

Bin Laden as much as declared Grand Ayatollah Sistani an infidel. But Sistani is almost universally loved by the 65% of Iraqis who are Shiites, and is widely respected among many Sunni Arabs, Kurds and Turkmen, as well. Bin Laden, the Saudi engineer, makes himself look ridiculous trying to give a fatwa against the Grand Ayatollah of Najaf. If anything, to have al-Qaeda menacing the Shiites in this way would tend to strengthen the American-Shiite alliance.

If Bin Laden had been politically clever, he would have phrased his message in the terms of Iraqi nationalism. By siding with the narrowest sliver of Sunni extremists, he denied himself any real impact. By adopting Zarqawi, who has killed many more Iraqis (especially Shiites) than he has Americans, he simply tarnishes his own image inside Iraq.

It appears that Bin Laden is so weak now that he is forced to play to his own base, of Saudi and Salafi jihadists, some of whom are volunteer guerrillas in Iraq. They are the only ones in Iraq who would be happy to see this particular videotape.

The only way Bin Laden could profit from this intervention in the least would be if a civil war between Sunni Arabs and Shiites really did break out in Iraq, and if the beleaguered Sunnis went over to al-Qaeda in large numbers. Since the Sunni Arabs are a minority of 20%, they and he would still lose, but for Bin Laden, who is now a refugee and without any strong political base outside a few provinces of Saudi Arabia, to pick up 5 million Iraqi Sunni Arabs, would be a major political victory. His recent videotape calling for the overthrow of the Saudi government suggests that he might hope to use any increased popularity in Anbar province as a springboard for renewed attacks on Saudi Arabia, especially on its petroleum sector.

It is a desperate, crackpot hope. The narrow, sectarian and politically unskilfull character of this speech is the most hopeful sign I have seen in some time that al-Qaeda is a doomed political force, a mere Baader-Meinhof Gang or Red Army Faction with greater geographical reach.
Tue, Dec 28, 2004 0:35
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 08:52 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
It would be good to see someone of Al Sistani's stature come out and say Bin Laden is just wrong. Vote for your future.


Yeah...he should tell them to vote the way your American occupiers want you to vote.

America knows what is in your best interests.

That ought to increase his standing among the Iraqis!


Jesus Christ...do you have to prove you can think as simplistically as possible to become an American conservative...or is it just an accident of the confluence?


Give it a rest Frank.

Iraqs only hope to be rid of America is a stable government. Sistani, a respected Islamic leader, should do what is best for Iraq and for his people. That means backing a free election.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 08:58 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Just as I thought. All a half quote does is destroy context.
Laughing You call that thought? All this half quote does is focus in on your foolish remark, only because you disputed it after I quoted it in my last post. Idea
Gelisgesti wrote:
your quote of me

Quote:
. The insurgents, aka Iraqis, don't 'punish those who refuse to help them' ....

Wat I actualy said
Quote:
. The insurgents, aka Iraqis, don't 'punish those who refuse to help them' .... they punish those that help the occupiers.


Sounds a lot diferent .
Laughing One need only look up at the same exact quote in my previous post, to see it complete to your satisfaction. Rolling Eyes It tells the same tale, and your denial-game is no less boring this morning. Good day.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 09:01 am
McTag wrote:
I see BTW that an Osama tape is published today which says that all Iraqis who vote in this election should be considered infidels.
This is one fraught election.

I still think the US administration will consider any government "duly elected" when they get a government, they can do business with. Otherwise, the government will be considered by them not to be "duly elected". We shall see.
Yes, we shall. Tommy Franks commented that Bin Ladin fancies himself a cleric, but most Iraqis do not view him that way. He said something to the effect that he didn't think the largely secular Iraqi public would pay that much attention to him. Those who do will likely do so out of direct fear of Zarqawi... not some allegiance to Bin Ladin. The press will no doubt make Bin Ladin out to be a bigger factor than he really is... just like they did here.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 09:08 am
McGentrix wrote:
It would be good to see someone of Al Sistani's stature come out and say Bin Laden is just wrong. Vote for your future.


dyslexia wrote:
it would also be good to see Sistani say "George Bush is just wrong, vote for Iraqs' future"


These are both excellent suggestions! One need only look to the Ukraine to see how diligently people will work to protect their right to vote once they understand the benefits of doing so.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 09:12 am
Frank, I decided not to respond to your hysterical ranting this morning and instead concentrate on your rational thoughts...

Here goes; Good morning!
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 09:20 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
Just as I thought. All a half quote does is destroy context.
Laughing You call that thought? All this half quote does is focus in on your foolish remark, only because you disputed it after I quoted it in my last post. Idea
Gelisgesti wrote:
your quote of me

Quote:
. The insurgents, aka Iraqis, don't 'punish those who refuse to help them' ....

Wat I actualy said
Quote:
. The insurgents, aka Iraqis, don't 'punish those who refuse to help them' .... they punish those that help the occupiers.


Sounds a lot diferent .
Laughing One need only look up at the same exact quote in my previous post, to see it complete to your satisfaction. Rolling Eyes It tells the same tale, and your denial-game is no less boring this morning. Good day.


Pathetic ..
scroll
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 09:43 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Frank, I decided not to respond to your hysterical ranting this morning and instead concentrate on your rational thoughts...

Here goes; Good morning!


We'll see!

People like you were saying the same shyt during the Vietnam War...and they were wrong.

Every indication I see tells me you, and your fellow conservatives, are wrong again.

But there is something perversely amusing about watching people who were wrong about every goddam item leading up to this pathetic, counterproductive war...now insisting that they know best how to get us out of the mess.

Best for our county and the world that you folks stick to screwing things up. You are experts at that. Leave the "getting us out from the stupid messes you create" to others. You have shown absolutely no skill at that kind of thing.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 10:45 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Frank, I decided not to respond to your hysterical ranting this morning and instead concentrate on your rational thoughts...

Here goes; Good morning!


We'll see!

People like you were saying the same shyt during the Vietnam War...and they were wrong.

Every indication I see tells me you, and your fellow conservatives, are wrong again.

But there is something perversely amusing about watching people who were wrong about every goddam item leading up to this pathetic, counterproductive war...now insisting that they know best how to get us out of the mess.

Best for our county and the world that you folks stick to screwing things up. You are experts at that. Leave the "getting us out from the stupid messes you create" to others. You have shown absolutely no skill at that kind of thing.
EeeerrraaaaSo hows the weather up by you? :wink:
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 10:59 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Frank, I decided not to respond to your hysterical ranting this morning and instead concentrate on your rational thoughts...

Here goes; Good morning!


We'll see!

People like you were saying the same shyt during the Vietnam War...and they were wrong.

Every indication I see tells me you, and your fellow conservatives, are wrong again.

But there is something perversely amusing about watching people who were wrong about every goddam item leading up to this pathetic, counterproductive war...now insisting that they know best how to get us out of the mess.

Best for our county and the world that you folks stick to screwing things up. You are experts at that. Leave the "getting us out from the stupid messes you create" to others. You have shown absolutely no skill at that kind of thing.
EeeerrraaaaSo hows the weather up by you? :wink:




Snow. No golf. Giants finishing a shyt season.

Bad combo!

Gotta take it out on somebody.

Nancy can kick my ass...and I don't wanna I kick the cat.

Sooooo..... :wink:
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 11:19 am
Laughing
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 11:35 am
Quote:


Iraq: In This Mire Of Death, Lies And
Atrocities, We Glimpse The Ghost Of Vietnam
by Robert Fisk, The Independent of London
December 27th, 2004


WHO SAID this and when? "The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiques are belated, insincere, incomplete. Things have been far worse than we have been told, our administration more bloody and inefficient that the public knows... We are today not far from a disaster."

Answer: TE Lawrence (of Arabia fame) in The Sunday Times in August, 1920. And every word of it is true today. We were lied to about weapons of mass destruction. We were lied to about the links between
Saddam Hussein and September 11, 2001. We were lied to about the insurgents - remember how they were just "dead-enders" and "remnants"? - and we were lied to about the improvements in Iraq when the entire country was steadily falling outside the hands of the occupying powers or of the government of satraps that they have
set up in their place. We are, I suspect, being lied to about elections next month.

Over the past year, there has been evidence enough that our whole project in Iraq is hopelessly flawed, that our Western armies - when they are not torturing prisoners, killing innocents and destroying one of the largest cities in Iraq - are being vanquished by a ferocious guerrilla army, the like of which we have not seen before
in the Middle East. My own calculations - probably conservative, because there are many violent acts that we are never told about -suggest that in the past 12 months, at least 190 suicide bombers have blown themselves up, sometimes at the rate of two a day. How
does this happen? Is there a suicide-bomber supermarket, an off-the-shelf store? What have we done to create this extraordinary industry? Time was, in Lebanon, when a suicide bombing was a once-a-month event. Or in Palestine/Israel a once-a-week event. Now,
in Iraq, it is daily or twice daily.

And American troops are sending home increasingly terrible stories of the wanton killing of civilians by US forces in the towns and cities of Iraq. Here, for example, is the evidence of ex-marine staff sergeant Jimmy Massey, testifying at a refugee hearing in
Canada earlier this month. Massey told the Canadian board - which had to decide whether to give refugee status to an American deserter from the 82nd Airborne - that he and his fellow marines shot and killed more than 30 unarmed men, women and children, including a
young Iraqi who got out of his car with his arms up.

"We killed the man," Massey said. "We fired at a cyclic rate of 500 bullets per vehicle." Massey assumed that the dead Iraqis didn't understand the hand signals to stop. On another occasion, according to Massey, marines - in reaction to a stray bullet - opened fire and
killed a group of unarmed protesters and bystanders.

"I was deeply concerned about the civilian casualties," Massey said. "What they the marines were doing was committing murder." The defector from the 82nd Airborne, Jeremy Hinzman, told the court that
"we were told to consider all Arabs as potential terrorists... to foster an attitude of hatred that gets your blood boiling".

All this, of course, is part of the "withholding of information". It took months before the Abu Ghraib torture and abuses were made public - even though the International Red Cross had already told the American and British authorities. It took months, for that
matter, for the British Government to respond to the outrageous beatings - and one killing - carried out on defenceless Iraqis in Basra, first exposed by The Independent. In the first seven months of last year, the authorities maintained that they still "controlled" Iraq, even though - when I drove 70 miles south of Baghdad in August - I found every checkpoint deserted and the
highways littered with burnt American trucks and police vehicles.

Still we are not told how many civilians were killed in the American attack on Fallujah. The Americans' claim that they killed more than 1,000 insurgents - only insurgents, mark you, not a single civilian among them - is preposterous. Still we are not free to enter the city. Nor, given the fact that the insurgents still appear to be
there, is it likely that anyone can do so. Why are American aircraft still bombing Fallujah, weeks after the US military claimed to have captured it?

It is difficult, over the past year, to think of anything that has not gone wrong or grown worse in Iraq. The electrical grid is collapsing again, the petrol queues are greater than they were in the days following the illegal invasion in 2003, and security is non-existent in all but the Kurdish north of the country.

The proposal to put Saddam's minions on trial looks more and more like an attempt to justify the invasion and distract attention from the horrors to come. Even the forthcoming elections are beginning to look more and more like a diversion. For if the Sunnis cannot - or
will not - vote, what will this election be worth? Donald Rumsfeld
gave us the first hint that things might not be going quite to plan when he spoke before the American election about a poll in "parts" of Iraq. What does this mean?

Yet, still the invaders go on telling us that things are getting better, that Iraq is about to enter the brotherhood of nations. Bush even got re-elected after telling this lie. The body bags are returning home more frequently than ever - we are not supposed to
ask how many Iraqis are dying - yet still we are told that the invasion was worthwhile, that Iraqis are better off, that security will improve or - my favourite, this one - that they will get worse, the nearer we get to elections.

This is the same old story that Bush and Rumsfeld used to put about last spring: that things are getting better - which is why the insurgents are creating so much violence; in other words, the better things are, the worse things are going to get. When you read this nonsense in Washington or London, it might make sense. In Baghdad,
it is madness. I wouldn't want to try it out on the young American soldiers who were so arrogantly informed by Rumsfeld that "you go to war with the army you have".

It would be pleasant to record some happiness somewhere in the Middle East. Palestinian elections in the New Year? Well, yes, but if the colourless and undemocratic Mahmoud Abbas is the best the Palestinians have to look forward to, after the far too colourful Yassir Arafat, then their chances of achieving statehood are about as dismal as they were when Arafat resided in his Ramallah bunker.

The Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, is not trying to close down illegal Jewish settlements in Gaza because he wants to be nice to the Palestinians; and his spokesman's dismissive remarks about the West Bank - that the Gaza withdrawal will put Palestinian statehood into "formaldehyde" - does not suggest that the occupied
are going to receive statehood from their occupiers. Which means, one way or another, that the intifada will restart. At which point, the Israelis will complain that Abbas cannot "control his own people", and the Israelis and the Palestinians will return to their hopeless conflict.

It is impossible to reflect on the year in Iraq without realising just how deeply the Israeli-Palestinian struggle affects the entire Middle East. Iraqis watch the Palestinian battle with great earnestness. Saddam Hussein's support for the Palestinians was one
with which many Iraqis could identify - even if they loathed their own dictator. And I doubt very much if the suicide bomber would have come of age so quickly in Iraq without the precedent set by the suicide bombers of Palestine and, before them, of Lebanon.

It is this precedent-setting capacity of events in the Middle East - not the mythical "foreign fighters" of George Bush's fantasy world - that is costing America so much blood in Iraq. When Sharon tries to prevent Palestinian statehood, Iraqis remember that his closest ally is represented in Iraq by an army which most of them regard as occupiers. When US forces learn their guerrilla warfare techniques from the Israelis - when they bomb houses from the air, when they abuse prisoners, when they even erect razor-wire round recalcitrant villages - is it surprising that Iraqis treat the Americans as surrogate Israelis?

We shouldn't need the evidence of ex-marine Massey to show us how brutal the occupying armies have become - and how irrelevant Iraq's "interim" government truly is. In Washington or London, these "ministers" play the role of international statesmen, but in Baghdad, where they hide behind the walls of their dangerous little enclave, they have as much status as rural mayors. Besides, they
cannot even negotiate with their enemies.

Which leads us to the one clear fact about the last year of chaos and anarchy and brutality in Iraq. We still do not know who our enemies are. Save for the one name, "Zarqawi", the Americans - with all the billions of dollars they have thrown into intelligence, their CIA mainframe computers and their huge payments to informers -
simply do not know whom they are fighting. They "recapture" Samarra- three times - and then they lose it again. They "recapture" Fallujah and then they lose it again. They cannot even control the main streets of Baghdad.

Who would have believed, in 2003, as US forces drove into Baghdad, that within two years they would be mired in their biggest guerrilla war since Vietnam? Those few of us who predicted just that - and The Independent was among them - were derided as nay-sayers,
doom-mongers, pessimists.

Iraq is now proving all over again what we should have learned in Lebanon and Palestine/Israel: that Arabs have lost their fear. It has been a slow process. But a quarter of a century ago, the Arabs lived in chains, cowed by occupiers and oppressive regimes. They were a submissive society and they did as they were told. The
Israelis even used a "Palestinian police force" to help them in their occupation. Not any more. The biggest development in the Middle East over the past 30 years has been this shaking off of fear. Fear - of the occupier, of the dictator - is something that you cannot re-inject into people. And this, I suspect, is what has
happened in Iraq.

Iraqis are just not prepared to live in fear any more. They know they must depend on themselves - our betrayal of the 1991 rising against Saddam proved that - and they refuse to be frightened by their occupiers. It was we who warned them of the dangers of civil
war, even though there never has been a civil war in Iraq. As a people, they watched Westerners turn up by the thousand to make money out of a country that had been beaten down by a corrupt dictatorship and UN sanctions. Is it any surprised that Iraqis are
angry?

The American columnist Tom Friedman, in one of his less messianic articles, posed a good question before the 2003 invasion. Who knows, he asked, what bats will fly out of the box when we get to Baghdad? Well, now we know. So we should repeat Lawrence's chilling remark -
without the quotation marks and the date 1920. We are today not far from a disaster.

Iraq Occupation Watch Center
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 11:46 am
Quote, "That means backing a free election." You guys have lost all concept of what a "free election" is. How would you feel when the candidates are being assassinated and also told that to go to the polls might be your last day? Get real; but that's asking for too much. You guys keep pushing the party rhetoric without understanding the meaning of "occupation" or "puppet regime." If the whole situation was turned around, and we were in the shoe of the Iraqis, would you really think you'll be voting in a "free election?"
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 12:11 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Quote, "That means backing a free election." You guys have lost all concept of what a "free election" is. How would you feel when the candidates are being assassinated and also told that to go to the polls might be your last day?
Fair question. How would you answer it? If I'm not mistaken, Bin Ladin did threaten us with the same rhetoric shortly before our last election. How did you respond? If he had murdered 20,000 more people on November 1st, would you have stayed home on the 2nd? I suspect the turnout would have been even bigger than it was. I'd like to think so anyway.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 12:26 pm
Fisk is just a bit lower on the "McGentrix likability scale" than Hitlary...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 12:32 pm
I've been watching Hillary over the last few months and, in my opinion, she has obviously been reinventing herself and morphing into a conservative somewhat right of Bill. That includes being pro tax cuts, pro education reform, and pro Iraqi independence. All this of course is in advance of her virtually certain (in my opinion) run for the presidency in 2008. Look for Carville and Begala to be heavily involved in that and nobody reads the political winds better than those two do.

The next question is: with her new pro-military, pro-war stance, how much influence will she have in the Senate to effect some positive help for the initiative in Iraq?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 12:37 pm
Fisk is good. John the Baptist was a voice in the wilderness too. Many tend to attack the messenger when they do not like the message. Fisk knows the Middle East better than anyone. He has also, BTW, won international journalism awards and is a highly-respected figure here.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 12:39 pm
Arafat was awarded a Nobel Peace prize too.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2004 12:42 pm
Foxy wrote
Quote:
The next question is: with her new pro-military, pro-war stance, how much influence will she have in the Senate to effect some positive help for the initiative in Iraq?


What help are you looking for and what initiative in Iraq are you referring to? Bush by his blunder has erased all options. We are f***ed and no longer in control of the situation. The situation controls us.
0 Replies
 
 

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