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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 02:54 pm
SUMMARY OF THE REAL TERRORIST POKER GAME

Until I encounter sufficient evidence to show otherwise, I am assuming that all that follows is true and valid.

GCP = www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2003/17300pf.htm General Colin Powell to the UN, 2/5/2003, alleged the US administration advocated invading Iraq for the following five reasons:
1. Iraq has not disarmed as the UN demanded;
2. Saddam Hussein and his regime are concealing their efforts to produce ready-to-use WMD;
3. Iraq is harboring members of the al Qaeda confederation;
4. Three times in 2002 –2003, the US requested Saddam Hussein to remove Zarqawi, a leader of the AaI al Qaeda (i.e., Ansar an Islam al Qaeda) encamped in northern Iraq.
5. Saddam Hussein purposely perpetrates cruelty to his own citizens and neighbors.

CDR = www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/Comp_Report_Key_Findings.pdf Charles Duelfer's Report, 9/30/2004, alleged that Saddam Hussein intends to redevelop and reassemble WMD when UN sanctions on Iraq are lifted and/or become sufficiently ignored.

9-11CR = www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States Report, i.e., The 9-11 Commission Report, 8/21/2004, alleged the following:
1. Osama bin Laden in 1998 declared war on both civilian and military Americans with the objective of killing all of them wherever they be found;
2. President George Bush on 9/11/2001 declared to the National Security Council the United States would not just punish the perpetrators of terrorist attacks on Americans but also those who harbored them;
3. President Bush declared to the nation on TV the night of 9/11/2001 that we would make no distinction between the terrorists who committed terrorism against Americans and those who harbor them.
4. President Bush declared to Congress and to the nation on TV the night of 9/20/2001 that our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them… Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but does not end there … Our war on terror will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped, and defeated.
5. The al Qaeda are a confederation of multiple terrorist groups led by Osama bin Laden.
6. Osama bin Laden aided a group of Islamic extremists encamped in northern Iraq.
7. The Al Qaeda encamped in northern Iraq, suffered major defeats by Kurdish Forces in the late 1990s.
8. In 2001, the Al Qaeda remnant in northern Iraq, with Osama bin Laden’s help, re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam (AaI).
9. There is zero evidence that the Kurd’s again attacked the AaI al Qaeda in northern Iraq.
10. There is zero evidence that Saddam’s regime attacked the AaI al Qaeda in northern Iraq.
11. There is zero evidence that the US attacked the AaI al Qaeda in northern Iraq before 2003.
12. There is zero evidence that Saddam Hussein requested the Kurds to attack the AaI al Qaeda in northern Iraq.
13. There is zero evidence that Saddam Hussein requested the US to attack the AaI al Qaeda in northern Iraq.
14. There is zero evidence that Saddam Hussein was intolerant of the encampment of the AaI al Qaeda in northern Iraq.

GTF = General Tommy Franks in "American Soldier," 7/1/2004, alleged the following:
1. In 2003, the US attacked and defeated the AaI al Qaeda in northern Iraq.
2. Over 1,000 weapons and munitions dumps, some containing very high explosive materials, were found scattered throughout Iraq by the US in 2003 and 2004.
3. Thousands of buried, murdered Iraqi citizens were discovered throughout Iraq by the US in 2003 and 2004.

I conclude the following from the GCP, CDR, 9-11CR, and GTF evidence presented above:
1. Each one of the five reasons given in GCP for invading Iraq were sufficient reasons for invading Iraq.
2. Only one of those five GCP reasons, the WMD reason, proved invalid (4 out of 5; “not bad for government work”).
3. Al Qaeda were harbored in Iraq prior to our invasion with the knowledge, willingness, and tolerance of Saddam Hussein.
4. Sadda Hussein had to be removed from the governance of Iraq in order to remove the AaI al Qaeda from Iraq.
5. Saddam Hussein had to be removed from the governance of Iraq in the interest of the Iraqi people and the American people.


GTF, Chapter 10 The Plan, page 420.

Quote:
There was no question: Phase IV would be a crucial period. Having won the war, we would have to secure the peace. And securing the peace would not be easy in a country that had been raped and massacred for more than three decades under Saddam Hussein. There were deep divisions among Sunnis and Shias, Kurds and Arabs, haves and have-nots; the regions traditional tribal rivalries would be hard to overcome. It would take time—perhaps years. And the costs would be high, certainly in money and conceivably lives.

There was no doubt about the actions that would be required. Coalition military leaders across Iraq would provide civil affairs expertise, government assistance, security, and Humanitarian Assistance to millions of Iraqis. Our conventional forces and Special Forces teams had the capability and expertise to accomplish these tasks, and Gene Renuart’s fifty-pound brains had done a masterful job in identifying and providing the resources to Coalition units to do the job.

Given our key policy goal of establishing a representative government in Iraq, though, it would be necessary to establish civilian control across the country as soon as possible. The questions were: How long would it be necessary to maintain military rule in Iraq? How quickly could the Iraqis take over? What form should a “Provisional Authority” take? These are tough questions, and there was no easy recipe for the answers.

On one hand, larger Coalition military forces and martial law might b required to stay in country for years, in order to preserve security. On the other, the Iraqis might claim their country as their own: they might welcome the liberation and organize themselves swiftly to control Iraq without Coalition help.

These problems commanded hours and days of discussion and debate among CENTCOM planners and Washington officials. If a true consensus leader—a kind of Iraq Hamid Karzai—could be located, then a representative government might be possible in the short term. Majority and minority factions could be represented, and Iraq would become a model for the Arab-Muslim world. But where to find that consensus leader?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 03:06 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Japan and Germany "surrendered." You ain't gonna find terrorists surrendering. Quit equating Japan and Germany with Iraq; there's no comparison.
No! I rcommend you quit making a distinction where there is no difference. I agree the al Qaeda will not surrender, since they prefer death to life; or at least they say they do. The Terrorists (i.e., al Qaeda) are best dealt with by denying them any government willing to harbor them. I think democratic governments in Afghanistan and Iraq will accomplish such harboring denial for Afghanistan and Iraq.

But it is not the terrorists on whom we are imposing democracy. We are imposing democracy on the Iraqis. Strangely, the Iraqis, with the exception of their Baathist contingent, are welcoming democracy just like the Japanese and Germans did and do. So it isn't quite correct that we are imposing democracy on the Iraqis.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 03:21 pm
It's not a matter of any government harboring terrorists. It's knowing who the terrorists are and where they're hiding, and that's an almost impossible task. That's the reason why terrorist activity is world-wide.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 03:38 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
It's not a matter of any government harboring terrorists. It's knowing who the terrorists are and where they're hiding, and that's an almost impossible task. That's the reason why terrorist activity is world-wide.
The two, harboring and knowing, are not really separable problems. The problems created by harboring are less when the harboring is resisted and not tolerated. The problems of knowing are less when the harboring is resisted and not tolerated.

We must stop the harboring of terrorists throughout the world. To stop the harboring we or the governments of countries in which terrorists are located must learn who the terrorists are. Yes, that is difficult. But we have succeeded a little in doing that. Within each country, the terrorist problem is like the problem of finding and destroying other gangster organizations. The job is never completely finished because gangster organizations continue to spring up as others are destroyed. The trick is to be ever vigilant and continually destroy them as fast as they are detected.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 05:05 pm
Like the harboring of Osama in Afghanistan/Pakistan, the insurgents in Iraq, and the rest of the world where innocent people are suffering because the terrorists can attack almost at free will. It's a nice sounding ideal for governments not to harbor terrorists, but most don't have a choice. Bet there are a few roaming the USA, England, Ireland, France, and Germany. None intentionally harbor terrorists; most don't have a choice. Look how long Israel have been fighting terrorism. Get the picture?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 05:18 pm
Okay, everybody, take a break. HAPPY HOLIDAYS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/imposter222/santtaskitten.jpg
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 05:22 pm
ican711nm wrote:
But it is not the terrorists on whom we are imposing democracy. We are imposing democracy on the Iraqis. Strangely, the Iraqis, with the exception of their Baathist contingent, are welcoming democracy just like the Japanese and Germans did and do. So it isn't quite correct that we are imposing democracy on the Iraqis.


So which is it?

You've set another land-speed record for self-contradiction.

Listen pal, Merry Christmas and all that, but take a break from the forum before you spontaneously combust from the cognitive dissonance.

You're fast becoming the biggest, longest-running joke around here.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 05:23 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Okay, everybody, take a break. HAPPY HOLIDAYS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/imposter222/santtaskitten.jpg


And the same to you, cicerone.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 10:03 pm
Nice image, c.i.

Happy holiday season to everyone. It seems like Christmas to me, but the solstice is a turnaround brightening time for all people.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2004 02:37 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Okay, everybody, take a break. HAPPY HOLIDAYS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/imposter222/santtaskitten.jpg



Awww...ain't that cute.

Gotta love those little kitties.

Thanks ci.

Happy holidays to everyone. Even you, Ican.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2004 02:56 am
UNFINISHED BUSINESS:

I wrote:

Quote:
BUT...democracy will never be imposed from without...



In response, Ican wrote:

Quote:
Frank is wrong... Where do you guys get that stuff?

Tell the Japanese and the Germans that a democracy cannot come from without. The Japanese who never previously had a democracy, had a democracy imposed on them by a conquerer, namely the US. The Japanese have had that democracy over 50 years.

The Germans who previously had a democracy for less than 15 years (which was imposed by its WWI armistice agreement) before they had a dictatorship, had a democracy imposed on them by a conquerer, namely the US and its allies. The Germans have had that democracy over 50 years.



Ican, of course, is correct on this...and I was wrong.

I got carried away and completely overstated my case.

I still think we will not impose democracy in Iraq...and I suspect whatever they end up with will eventually be a greater thorn in our side than was Saddam.

In any case, I also think that the means to this particular end...whatever eventually results...will haunt us and the rest of the world on into the foreseeable future...and I think it sets precedents that make the world a much more dangerous place...not a safer one.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2004 07:47 am
Frank, do not be so quick to accept Japan and Germany as successful examples of imposed democracy. Both of those countries were homogeneous in ethnicity and culture and lent themselves to controlling from the top. The tri-partite divisions in the country known as Iraq do not lend themselves to such control unless we federalize the country and form three separate states, each with its own government (much as the Kurds have done,) and then create a national government to keep them from tearing each other apart.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2004 07:57 am
Kara wrote:
Frank, do not be so quick to accept Japan and Germany as successful examples of imposed democracy. Both of those countries were homogeneous in ethnicity and culture and lent themselves to controlling from the top. The tri-partite divisions in the country known as Iraq do not lend themselves to such control unless we federalize the country and form three separate states, each with its own government (much as the Kurds have done,) and then create a national government to keep them from tearing each other apart.


I understand what you are saying Kara...and I certainly agree that Iraq is a very, very different situation from either post-war Japan or Germany...and that the circumstances of the end games are polar.

But the fact is that the proposition "Japan and Germany both had democracies imposed by war" is more easily defended (A LOT MORE EASILY DEFENDED) than the proposition "Democracy will never be imposed by war."

I said the latter; Ican said the former.

I was wrong; Ican was correct.



No part of my concession, however, should suggest to anyone that I think democracy will be imposed by this misadventure in Iraq. The indications I see suggest it will not...and that Iraq and the world will be the worse for what what Bush and company have done here.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2004 08:04 am
Kara, you change your hair or something?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2004 08:08 am
Oops,
humor injected in wrong place .... sorrry.

Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2004 08:22 am
It is in my view a mistake to encourage Ican by suggesting he is right about anything. Smile Merry Crhristmas, Ike.

Germany and Japan were both in a state of collapse after the effect of the war and were at level zero and needed to be built up. Any system imposed on either at that time would have been "successful", any system which brought with it inward investment. Iraq is different, even though badly damaged now.

Also, the Americans need a compliant government so they can operate the bases and embassy they are building, which Panzade reminded us about. What the US is angling for, demanding I mean, is a "democratically elected" government which will comply with US aims for the region.

So any government suitable for this, which would agree to a continued US presence, will be seen as a puppet government by those against; who seem to be growing in number.

So in summary, I am forced to think that this will not be solved without a lot more bloodshed. The already ill-starred elections may be the start of more problems, not the end. Even a federation of Iraqi states, which is seemingly the best hope, will not work with continued US presence IMO.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2004 08:58 am
Quote:

A Terrible Love Of War

by James Hillman



James Hillman was trained as a Jungian psychologist, but in his recent work he eschews all Jungian vocabulary, practicing rather an "analysis" based on the careful weighing of words and their etymologies. He juxtaposes them against their roots, contrasts them to their supposed opposites, to their cultural variants, and culls a new "depth psychology" from this process. There is nothing in this book about the "anima", "animus" the "shadow" and all the other favored Jungian poetry. Instead Hillman goes, quite naturally, to poetry itself. By going deeper into words we find what we are really saying is often quite different than what we think. The external 'verities' of Freud and Jung manifest themselves in as a simpler, more coherent--- internal truth. Like Pascal, Hillman meditates on an opposition, an etymology, or a life story, quite often his own, until he has drawn from each a full cultural resonance, thus letting the process of the divine, which is the ultimately only what is most real, reveal itself.

"As a psychologist I learned long ago that I could not explain my patient's behavior, nor anyone's, including my own..."

This admission of "defeat" is really a victory, for now the scientist can see for the first time what he has been missing: the imagination. "The Gods" manifest themselves today as psychic tension or as behaviors, but they are anything but metaphors, rather they are truth, as we can know it. More truth, in fact, than we can handle.

This book is a meditation in four chapters, entitled: "War Is Normal, War is Inhuman, War is Sublime, and Religion Is War". In the first of these chapters the author disabuses us of the comforting notion that Peace and War are opposites or distinct states, and that love can overcome that hate which leads to War, a traditional assumption of many progressive, high-minded people. War is not an opposite state to "Peace" rather "Peace" is the brief interval before the next War. As the philosopher and student of Martin Buber Emanuel Levinas says "Being reveals itself as War", at least in the West. War is of the earth, is perhaps even driven by those earthy powers, those ancestors whose bodies are the very dust of the earth which absorbs the blood of war. Is this mere metaphor? Think again:

"There have been five-thousand six-hundred years of written history and fourteen-thousand six hundred wars have been recorded."

There have been roughly two and a half wars going on for every year of recorded history. This sentence is surely enough to the give the reader of Kant's essay On Perpetual Peace pause. Can it be doubted that not only is war "normal", but that it is a manifestation of a force as powerful to our species as is Eros or Death, and far more permanent than the Peace it outstrips? What, after all, is 'Post Traumatic Stress Disorder', but the very presence and preparation for the next war, hovering ominously, even in the moment of "Peace"?

"De Tocqueville describes "a new kind of servitude" where a supreme power covers the surface of society with a network of small, complicated rules, minute and uniform, through which the most original minds and energetic characters cannot penetrate to rise above the crowd. The will of man is not shattered but softened, bent and guided; men are seldom forced to act, but they are constantly restrained from acting. Such a power does not destroy; but it prevents existence; it does not tyrannize, but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrial animals, of which government is the shepherd...The state becomes the sole guarantor of self-preservation...Thus do conditions become right for the Prince, who, as Machiavelli wrote, "Should have no other thought but War..."

Enemies always abound. Pretexts abound. In fact, it is the imagination of the enemy which MAKES (in both senses) that enemy.

Being reveals itself as "War" in the West not because of Homer's glorification of it, but because it is nourished by the extreme monotheism of Christianity, an "Old Testamament'warrior' God of Jaweh, tacked onto a New Testament without War ("Turn the other cheek, and give your enemy your cloak). War becomes "a self-replicating" pattern of behaviour possessed of a dynamism not unlike that of a living organism." Meanwhile the methods of war evolve. Instead of Dreadnoughts it is now the "cool" presence of the hand behind the computer who causes cities to explode and burn from hundreds of miles away, unseen, and without participation in the ensuing horror. Now war has become "Apollonic" because "It was Apollo who chases, but fails to consummate his relations in closeness." Here Hillman does not hesitate to draw the inevitable conclusions from the fact that Ares always lies down with Aphrodite, the Goddess of Love. From ancient Sumner to present day Iraq the story is the same: the thrill, the glory, and the 'erotics" of war pass every other experience in intensity and delight. The hold of war is as powerful as Eros, indeed, IS Eros: "There is no beauty like it, because its beauty is evil" said one soldier, echoing Baudelaire. Can anyone be so foolish as to blieve that this violence is only incidental, only or purely contextual? The much touted "Sex AND violence" of the so called "conservatives"? Do we think that television generates it?

"The high paid-speechwriters, spin doctors, press conferences gauged to conceal and rebuff in the name of higher principles like "national security", the well-groomed and dispassionate news anchors, the non-commital hypocrisy of "balanced reporting" , the sentimntalities following the accidents, the pharmecuetical ads meant to arouse fear in the name of healing, the Sunday preachers, the titillation of interruptions ("We're out of time I have to cut you off") before any conclusions can be reached, the unrelenting bombardment of the people with the toxins of hypocrisy, TV's own weapon of mass destruction, there is indeed call for sanctions and censorship---not by the government--- but of the government----"

Were we, in America, able to be true warriors, and equal to the mission of the preservation of the civilization with which we have been entrusted--- we might be able to imagine a real enemy, a enemy WORTHY of our opposed strength:

"Imaginging the enemy means allowing the other to enter and to occupy whole areas of your soul, to submit to be penetrated, but not possessesd. This too is from Aphrodite. She took all lovers to herself, but was herself never taken (Instead) the center of culture in the United States since its colonial days has been faithfully promised to the plain style of Protestant literalism, direct, unambiguous, uncompromising...the American imagination in dance and in music and in writing is receives world wide recognition, but the penetration of this culture to into AMERICAN POLITICAL CULTURE arrives only in the armoured car of money delivery. The civilizing influence of the asethetic imagination never makes it to the mall. It is as if the nation were immune to its own culture, protected against it as against something freak, unnatural, a disease of decadence, a corrupting of what Americans REALLY live by and for, forward marching under the flag, against all enemies. Culture, which could possibly "leash" the violence of war with a love of equal strength is so blasted by America's ways of belief, that we can must conclude that religion is war's sinister grandfather..."

But not any religion, but rather, especially, MONOTHESTIC religion: especially the three: Islam, Judaism and Christianity, who myths, origins and even sacred geography are largely shared or related. Can this be only coincidence? Can anyone point to any wars which have occured or are likely to occur between POLYTHESTIC believers? Shintos against Hindus? Taosists against Buddhists? Animists of one sort against animists of another? I don't think so. James Hillman suggests that we ought to think hard about that is the case. I think he's right.

Thanks for your wisdom, and your book, Mr. Hillman.

Will Morgan


Dcember 23, 2004
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2004 09:01 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Quote:

A Terrible Love Of War

by James Hillman



"There have been five-thousand six-hundred years of written history and fourteen-thousand six hundred wars have been recorded."

There have been roughly two and a half wars going on for every year of recorded history. Thanks for your wisdom, and your book, Mr. Hillman.

Will Morgan


Dcember 23, 2004



At times like this, it is always wise to remember that 87.6% of all statistics are made up right on the spot!
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2004 09:27 am
THE SECRETARY

U.S. Can Beat Insurgents, Rumsfeld Tells Troops

By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.

Published: December 25, 2004

AGHDAD, Iraq, Dec. 24 - Iraq "looks bleak" and is a "tough situation," but there is no question that the United States will prevail over insurgents, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld told troops on a Christmas Eve visit to several hostile Iraqi regions three days after a bombing in Mosul that killed 18 Americans.

"There's no doubt in my mind this is achievable," Mr. Rumsfeld told troops in Mosul, where he visited some wounded in the bombing. He criticized those he called "the naysayers and the doubters who say it can't be done, and that we're in a quagmire here," saying there have always been skeptics who have second-guessed military campaigns.

Insurgent violence continued on Friday. In Baghdad, one person was killed and 19 were wounded when a fuel tanker exploded near the Libyan Embassy in the affluent Mansour district, said Capt. Brian Lucas, a military spokesman.

The nationality of the victims was not immediately known, though no American or allied troops were hurt, he said. News agencies reported that the blaze had been triggered by a bomb and that many of the wounded had suffered severe burns.

Also, the Marines said a group of masked insurgents had destroyed the mayor's office in the restive city of Ramadi on Wednesday by detonating two boxes of explosives. The Marines said in a statement that no one was hurt in the blast.

As Mr. Rumsfeld sought to rally the troops, the military pressed its investigation of the deadly bombing at an American mess tent in Mosul on Tuesday. Brig. Gen. Richard P. Formica, who has investigated abuse of detainees, was appointed to oversee the inquiry and has already taken control of it, a military spokesman said.

Investigators have determined that the blast was probably caused by a suicide bomber wearing an Iraqi military uniform who detonated an explosive-laden vest inside the tent. General Formica's "task is to determine exactly what happened and why," said Lt. Col. Paul Hastings, a military spokesman in Mosul.

Mr. Rumsfeld's trip comes amid criticism from lawmakers in both parties who say he has appeared insensitive to the needs of the troops. Aides to Mr. Rumsfeld said the trip had been planned for weeks and was not in response to the criticism.

In addition to Mosul, Mr. Rumsfeld visited a base in Tikrit, where he told soldiers that "the task you have is not to create a country, but to create an environment so that they can do it on their own."

He also went to Falluja, where he told marines who wrested control of the city last month from insurgents that "you folks have made a name for yourselves."

"The whole world was watching," he said, "and you did your job."

Falluja residents who left before the invasion continued to return on Friday, the second official day of resettlement, finding many houses damaged and sewage in the streets.



What Rumsfeld neglected to say was how long and at what cost to people and treasury..

To those who were gung ho about our invasion of Iraq, do you still feel that the end if indeed we meet our objectives justifies the means? I should note that the polls are beginning to reflect a negative attitude toward our in ivolvement in Iraq and Bush's war.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2004 09:30 am
Quote:
At times like this, it is always wise to remember that 87.6% of all statistics are made up right on the spot! [/quote

Frank, why bring Ican into this?? Smile
0 Replies
 
 

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