Started out that we were defending the Iraqi's right to be free ........ free fro tyranny. Now, the Iraqi's are fighting to defend their right to be Iraqi.
Where/when did we go from mutually inclusive to mutually exclusive? The guys that are wearing the white hats are killing the guys that are wearing the white hats????
Just having wakened up and come downstairs and read about 25 posts, I don't know which to answer. I think I disagree with Frank this time, about folding and coming home. I decided a while ago that now that the invasion is a fact (God knows I argued hard enough against it) then there was no alternative to pressing on. But it's devilish situation, an impossible choice now. And I was thinking this morning that the old Kenny Rodgers song
"You gotta know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away, and
Know when to run-
You never count your money
When the cards are on the table
There'll be time enough for counting
When the dealing's done"
is a song about life and death.
It's a hard choice on whether this war in Iraq is worth all the sacrifice simply because we just don't know what the future holds. For one thing, I believe we are fighting the war with 1) bad/inadequate equipment, 2) not enough troops, and 3) bad planners in Washington DC.
The question I would ask anyone who doubts that we should simply cut and run as soon as possible is...
...wouldn't it have been better to have done that in Vietnam early on...than to wait and do it after almost 50,000 young men and women had died...and ten times that many had been maimed?
THIS THING...AS MANY OF US PREDICTED...IS A DISASTER!
We are never going to win this war...in part because we simply did not learn the lessons Vietnam should have taught us.
If we are still in Iraq by the end oF next year...and some estimate we probably cannot get out in less than a decade...this will have become the most serious self-inflicted wound any country has ever had to endure.
MARK MY WORDS...if we are still in that country one year from now...it will be evidence positive that this thing I already call a disaster...has soured even further....to the point of catastophic.
I suspect our esteemed president already knows this...but why not just tell the American people that we "have to see it out"...and let the decision to finally pull out be made by someone else.
Nixon got screwed that way!
OCCOM BILL wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:Yep...cut and run. That is what I consider to be in our best interests right now...despite the fact that it is a very unpopular position.
Sortta like folding cased queens before the flop.
Not an easy thing to do.
But sometimes the not-so-easy-thing-to-do....is the right thing to do...and the best thing to do....as you probably know from holding onto cased queens when you knew you shoulda folded.
Love the example, Frank! Accept, we're not exactly short stacked here, are we? Comparative piles DEMAND them Qs get played.
All-in is the appropriate bet in such a situation and I think you know thatÂ… no? :wink:
We're gonna lose a lot of chips the way you are playing, Bill. And the top stack doesn't stay the top stack playing that way.
At some point we are gonna realize our only option is to fold 'em. Might just as well do that while our losses are still fairly small.
But I am a realist...and I realize that we are gonna tough it out.
How truly terrible this entire fiasco is. How very avoidable it was.
The evolving question is...what ought America to do now in Iraq.
Things aren't getting better, but are getting worse. Undeniably.
And so we begin to hear, not just from the lefty peaceniks and the Chamberlain-wimp appeasers and the raving Bush-haters, but from more and higher military and intelligence sources directly surrounding the endeavor that we, now, ought to face up to an unhappy dose of coming grim.
If it was tough trying to figure out what the US ought to do, morally and strategically, a year ago, it is a hell of a lot more difficult now.
There will be many more Americans and Brits and civilian workers maimed and killed...many more. And that number, whatever it turns out to be, will be a mere fraction of the Iraqis (men, women, children) who will be killed and crippled. Anti-American sentiment in Iraq and in the Muslim world and in the western world will further increase.
But imagining what a rational and moral agent might be expected to do in this situation is one thing. Imagining what America under the Bush administration might be expected to do in this situation is quite another thing, and probably requires some clear understanding of why America under the Bush administration is there at all. And who among us is confident we have that figured out? (Other than the "Bush is a great leader" crowd, it goes without saying). And without penetrating that question, predicting what the hell these guys will do next is no easy task.
Are we there because of oil? Well, behind oxygen, water, and food, what other commodity is so absolutely necessary to the maintenance of our lives here in the western world? It sure could be why we are there.
Or did we go there to help protect the client state of Israel? Ties between the neoconservative contingent and the Likud party under Ariel Sharon are easily close enough to make this possible motivation join our lineup of suspects.
Perhaps the Pentagon, with all the aligned and enmeshed web of weapons manufacturers and defence contractors, perceived an opportunity to sell their wares and expand their businesses and prove their manhoods. What good is peace and quiet to any of these folks? Functionally, war is their purpose, their raison d'etre.
Or are we, as Bush said before he didn't really say what he said, involved in a crusade? Are Muslims dirty and vicious and animal-like and perverse and following entirely the wrong god? Ariel Sharon doesn't much like Arabs or Muslims either, we note.
Maybe we are there because bad things were happening to people and we don't like to see bad things happening to people and so we went in, buddies ever to the downtrodden? Meanwhile, after some twenty years, one of our largest chemical corporations has fought bravely to avoid paying a single penny of compensation for what happened to those peacefully sleeping folks (damn bad luck!) living near the Union Carbide plant in Bophal. Not a single penny. But we hate that, bad things happening to people. That's why all the folks here on A2K who support the liberation of Iraq are the very same people working every day to forward justice in the Bophal case. They mention it all the time.
blatham wrote: That's why all the folks here on A2K who support the liberation of Iraq are the very same people working every day to forward justice in the Bophal case. They mention it all the time.
"Oh...", he said, his face a mask of incredulity, "...they do??? But I've never heard any of 'em do that. Are you being facetious?"
Goodness, Country Joe makes the circle complete...
This will break your heart .........
Quote: Going to War with the Clothing We Have The Civ...
Going to War with the Clothing We Have
The Civil Air Patrol at Ramstein Air Force Base in Germany is making a plea for help for wounded US soldiers sent there. I quote the original letter below in full. Note that getting things all the way to Ramstein requires more postage than the APO address might suggest. I know the first reaction of most people when they read this message will be to be angry at political figures. But first send money, then be mad. By the way, this sort of treatment of US troops is common, even though they are all that stand between us and forces such as al-Qaeda. The grunts who do the heavy lifting aren't actually paid anything. The allowance given them to move from one base to another often doesn't cover their expenses. The Bush administration is even trying to take away Vets' lifetime health benefits. Tens of thousands of badly wounded US veterans are likely to be produced by the current round of wars, and some proportion of them will end up homeless.
From: Lori Noyes
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 12:28 AM
Subject: Request for Help for our wounded troops at LRMC
Dear CAP Friends:
I am writing is to tell you about a project the Ramstein Cadet Squadron at Ramstein Air Base, Germany, is starting. The Landstuhl Regional Medical Center (LRMC) here in Germany got an influx of about 500 wounded troops from Iraq last week and more arrive almost daily. They arrive straight from the battlefield, with only the torn, dirty, bloody clothes on their back. They have no clothes, underwear, or toiletry items. The hospital provides them with only a cotton gown or pajamas, robe, and disposable slippers. Some stay only a few days before being sent to hospitals stateside, while others are here up to several weeks. The military gives them a $250 voucher to buy clothing and toiletries at the BX, but many are not ambulatory, and those who are have to wait for a bus to get down to the BX on Ramstein 7 miles away. The BX runs out of the clothing and it takes weeks for more to come in. Those who can go to the BX still need something to wear to get there!
The cadets are collecting new clothing and toiletries to that they can take to the wounded at LRMC. Below is a list of items the wounded need. It is cold here in Germany and warm items are needed. Items need not be name brands . . .
For males - all sizes, but mostly medium and large
briefs
boxer shorts
undershirts or T-shirts
white crew sox
cotton turtleneck shirts
flannel shirts
sweatshirts (crew or zip-up hooded)
sweat pants
inexpensive athletic shoes
knit caps
knit gloves
For females - all sizes, but mostly medium and large
cotton briefs
cotton T-shirts
cotton turtleneck shirts
flannel shirts
bras - mostly sizes 34, 36, 38 with cup sizes B and C
white crew sox
sweatshirts (crew or zip-up hooded)
sweat pants
inexpensive athletic shoes
knit caps
knit gloves
Toiletry articles -
disposable razors
shaving cream - regular and/or travel size
deodorant - regular and/or travel size
tooth brushes
tooth paste - regular and/or travel size
nail clippers
combs
hair brushes
The hospital could also use new or used video tapes or DVDs of movies for the patients to watch. Comedies or light drama are best. Please avoid movies about war or those with excessive violence.
If your squadron would like to help, we would greatly appreciate it, no matter what the quantity. Every little bit helps.
If you wish to send money, make your check out to the Ramstein Cadet Squadron and put "Help for LRMC" on the memo line. We will use the money to purchase toiletry items and movies. But American-sized clothing listed below is what is mostly needed, which the BX is currently out of.
Send your donations to:
Lt Col Lori Noyes
PSC 2 Box 6037
APO AE 09012
or
Ramstein Cadet Squadron NHQ-OS-119
Unit 3395
APO AE 09094
We can get items to the hospital faster if they come to my mailing address, but feel free to send them to the squadron address.
Feel free to pass the word along to other CAP units in your wing. Thank you for your support of our troops.
In service,
Lori L. Noyes, Lt Col, CAP
Deputy Commander
Ramstein Cadet Squadron
For those who want to help the victims of bombings such as those at Najaf and Karbala recently, contributions can be sent to the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (click on "Iraq Humanitarian Crisis" at "I would like my contribution to go to . . .).
Thu, Dec 23, 2004 0:10
FALLUJAH, Iraq -" U.S. Marines clashed with insurgents in the battered city of Fallujah on Thursday with warplanes dropping bombs and tanks shelling suspected guerrilla positions on a day when a first group of residents displaced by fighting were scheduled to return.
It was unclear what caused the clashes, but Marine officers said that both sides had suffered casualties.
The fighting erupted on the day that the first 2,000 residents displaced by last month's bloody U.S.-led offensive to retake the rebel stronghold were supposed to return to the city of 250,000 people. It was not immediately known what effect the fighting would have on the planned return, the first of tens of thousands due to go back."
The myth of the pacification of Fallujah continues. Peering through the newspeak I would venture that we suffered some serious casualties in this latest set to.
In order to provide potable water for Fallujah a fleet of water trucks will be needed, further complicating the repatriation of this destroyed city.
Gelisgesti
Your right it does. I am glad that the letters mentioned the needy in Iraq as well as our own troops. Sad all the way around.
In reality we thanks to Bush and company are between a rock and a hard place. We can't cut and run that IMO is unthinkable. And we cannot win against the insurgency by continuing with our present course of action. The problem is as it has been from the beginning, not enough boots on the ground. It makes little sense to fight and win a battle by clearing a city of insurgents only to leave and allow the insurgents to return. You must hold what you win. For that you need sufficient forces.
All the bullcrap coming out of the administration regarding how well things are progressing is just that. The insurgents are becoming stronger and more organized as evidenced by the increased casualty count.
Frank Apisa wrote:We're gonna lose a lot of chips the way you are playing, Bill. And the top stack doesn't stay the top stack playing that way.
At some point we are gonna realize our only option is to fold 'em. Might just as well do that while our losses are still fairly small.
But I am a realist...and I realize that we are gonna tough it out.
How truly terrible this entire fiasco is. How very avoidable it was.
You need a new metaphor dude. Of all starting hands Qs offer the third highest winning percentage. Every expert in the field will tell you to play at least the top 10 starting hands very aggressively when you're behind the big stack. This is how you win tournaments, Frank. The only exception I can fathom, short a good
read, would be if 2 other players beat you in... and even then it would be a tough lay-down. :wink:
Iraq is not Vietnam. There is no similarity between them that couldn't also be applied to any serious conflict. The first 7 points scored in a football game does not foretell the outcome. Nor does the first interception thrown.
If it were a fair comparison, then you would be advocating we stand down while the a couple million MORE people are exterminated... and leaving the other 20 million-plus worse off than when we started. Not a good idea Frank.
I think franks's point of which you missed entirely which is not surprising is that with the current administration and the current leaders of the military who are bush's yes men for the most part, we will still be in the same place years from now only more deaths on both and all sides. They can't fix the problem so why not let the Iraqi's fix the problem the way they want to in however manner they see fit?
If after the elections and if whoever wins the election ask the Americans to leave, we have to leave; we already said that we would leave if asked. Maybe that will be the answer to avoid a long drawn out disastrous tragedy.
OCCOM BILL wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:We're gonna lose a lot of chips the way you are playing, Bill. And the top stack doesn't stay the top stack playing that way.
At some point we are gonna realize our only option is to fold 'em. Might just as well do that while our losses are still fairly small.
But I am a realist...and I realize that we are gonna tough it out.
How truly terrible this entire fiasco is. How very avoidable it was.
You need a new metaphor dude.
Nothing wrong with this metaphor, Bill...it is doing just fine!
Quote:Of all starting hands Qs offer the third highest winning percentage. Every expert in the field will tell you to play at least the top 10 starting hands very aggressively when you're behind the big stack. This is how you win tournaments, Frank. The only exception I can fathom, short a good read, would be if 2 other players beat you in... and even then it would be a tough lay-down. :wink:
That was the point of the metaphor, Bill. It is a VERY TOUGH lay-down.
But sometimes the tough lay-downs are the ones that make you...and sometimes the tough lay-downs that don't get laid down are the ones that break you.
Quote:Iraq is not Vietnam. There is no similarity between them that couldn't also be applied to any serious conflict.
If you are talking about the countries...I agree. One is mostly jungle...the other mostly desert.
But if you are talking about the situation...YOU COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG.
We have set ourselves up for humiliation and defeat.
Here are a few words on the similarities:
Quote:
11-Step Program for Iraq Failure
The Bush Team is Repeating the Mistakes the U.S. Made in Vietnam.
by Lawrence J. Korb
In his press conference on April 13, President Bush argued that comparing the quagmire in Iraq with Vietnam would only be a disservice to our troops.
However, if one reviews the list of mistakes that former Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara claims we made in prosecuting the war in Vietnam, it is clear that Bush, his advisors and the American people can learn a great deal about how we got ourselves into the current situation in Iraq and how we can get out of it.
In his book "Retrospect," McNamara argues that he and his colleagues in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations made 11 mistakes in their handling of Vietnam.
The first, and presumably the most egregious, was to exaggerate the dangers our adversaries posed to us, something the Bush administration did in Iraq by exaggerating intelligence about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and its ties to Al Qaeda.
Bush's comments about how we are fighting the enemy in Baghdad so we will not have to fight it in Boston (or Brooklyn) are eerily reminiscent of President Johnson's comments about how we were fighting communists in Saigon so we would not have to fight them in San Francisco.
McNamara's next four mistakes concern our misjudgments about the political forces, nationalism and the history and culture of Vietnam as well as our ability to shape every nation in our own image.
It is now clear that our lack of knowledge about Iraq, coupled with the belief that America could shape Iraq in its own image, led the Bush administration to assume that we would be greeted as liberators, and that the Sunnis, the Shiites and the Kurds would agree to set up a federal republic modeled after our own.
Another three of McNamara's criteria focus on the use of military power. He warns that high-technology military equipment is insufficient to win the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.
He also says Congress and the American people should be drawn into a full, frank debate on the pros and cons of large-scale military involvement, and that military action should be carried out only in conjunction with the real support of the international community.
Casting these lessons aside, the Bush administration failed to heed the advice of military professionals that our overwhelming conventional military power would not be enough to translate a military victory into a stable peace without the deployment of a large number of ground troops for a long time.
The administration failed to let Congress and the American people have a full, frank debate about the reasons for going to war or how long it would take or how much it would cost. Finally, though 30 nations lent their political support to the cause, the only significant practical support has come from the British; more than 90% of the casualties and the cost has been and will be continued to be borne by the United States.
Two of McNamara's mistakes concern the failure to explain to Americans when and why unanticipated events forced us off course and to make it clear to the people that in international affairs we may have to live in an imperfect, untidy world.
The Bush administration has still not explained why it was mistaken about the primary reasons for going to war. Even in the face of recent setbacks, it has yet to acknowledge that creating a stable Iraq will be a long, difficult and costly endeavor and cannot be accomplished by an artificial deadline like June 30. The president has not recognized that we may have to live with an Iraq that is not a Jeffersonian democracy.
The final mistake that we made in Vietnam was to not organize the executive branch to deal with the complex range of political and military issues that situation presented. If anything, the organizational failures are worse in Iraq. The State Department began planning for the Iraqi reconstruction about 18 months before the invasion, but when the Pentagon was unexpectedly given responsibility for reconstruction, its first viceroy, Lt. Gen. Jay Garner, was not even allowed to consult with the State Department. Moreover, the invading troops were not given any guidance about what to do when the regime fell and even a year after the fall of Baghdad it remains unclear who is in charge of reconstruction and stabilization.
Not learning from our mistakes in Vietnam would be the real disservice to our troops and the country. In fact, learning from those mistakes might be the best, if not the only, way to understand how we got into the current mess in Iraq and how we might get out of it.
Lawrence J. Korb is a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress in Washington and senior advisor to the Center for Defense Information.
Copyright 2004 Los Angeles Times
Quote: The first 7 points scored in a football game does not foretell the outcome. Nor does the first interception thrown.
If it were a fair comparison, then you would be advocating we stand down while the a couple million MORE people are exterminated... and leaving the other 20 million-plus worse off than when we started. Not a good idea Frank.
No...your idea is better (he says sarcastically!).
First...sustain as much more in the way of losses of personel and resources...and then get out and let the people who are going to be killed because of our stupid misadventure be killed.
C'mon, Bill. Wake up.
Shyt is gonna happen now...or later.
If we wait until later to cut our losses...the only difference will be the further damage we will have self-inflicted because of this pathetic administration.
I think Bill sees it, Revel...but like so many of the Bush backers...he cannot bring himself to acknowledge the consequences.
This is a horrible situation all the way around...and no choice is good.
I do hope that the newly elected government...mostly stooges we have set up for victory...tells us to get the hell out immediately.
That will provide cover for the cowards in Washington to do what has to be done.
Revel, do you even know the game we've been referencing? When someone follows a point with their own, that doesn't mean they 'missed' anything. I seriously doubt Frank would elect you to speak on his behalf and I most certainly don't need you to illuminate his points for me. Thanks anyway.
Oops, you beat me there.
I understand why you make the comparison... but short of a quick victory, I can't imagine why you wouldn't. It is an example of a failure, nothing more.
Aside: Frank, have seen the "Fog of War"? McNamara's candor is amazing.
