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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 09:16 pm
Sigh.

"And in the end it all comes down to what people BELEIVE about God or Allah or by whatever name they call a diety. In the case of militant fundamentalist Christianity, God favors them, hates the rest of us. That is the concern when it comes to Christianity."

No further coment at this time..... Crying or Very sad
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 09:32 pm
You said it, Adrian!

Icant:
"Iraq's "sacred texts" -- the government records that provide a documentary history of mass murder."

Oh, those are Iraq's sacred texts, are they? What a hateful thing to say, and to reprint! After reading that sentence, the bias is obvious and the rest of the article is moot. Kaplan aint worth the read.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 09:39 pm
The difference between Allah and the Christian God is that Christians believe God loves everybody and is not willing that any should perish. Nor does the Christian God advocate destroying the enemies of God. By the time Jesus showed up, religious thought was considerably advanced past the wrath of the God of the Old Testament.
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 09:40 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
There is no way that any of you can say that the Qu'ran does not contain numerous passages suggesting that all infidels, i.e. non-believers in Islam, be destroyed, including beheading as one of the options. You will find many more such passages in the Qu'ran of that type than you will find any suggesting tolerance and mercy for the infidels.


This is actually true.
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 09:52 pm
Rolling Eyes Well, I'll just go and take YOU'RE word for it heh?
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 10:00 pm
IronLionZion wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
There is no way that any of you can say that the Qu'ran does not contain numerous passages suggesting that all infidels, i.e. non-believers in Islam, be destroyed, including beheading as one of the options. You will find many more such passages in the Qu'ran of that type than you will find any suggesting tolerance and mercy for the infidels.


This is actually true.


Well that's not fair. Crying or Very sad All seems to be lost, and we can blame it on religion.

Hey, has anyone seen Fahrenheit 9/11 yet? What did you think of it? I believe it's popular in the States.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 10:07 pm
All is not lost I think McTag. It is just a fact of the way the world is today, and we will be well advised to be aware of what dangers exist.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 10:08 pm
Duplicate post - sorry
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 10:31 pm
ican711nm wrote:
FOLKS ON THE LEFT ARE SUCCEEDING IN THEIR EFFORTS TO WEAKEN BUSH'S RESOLVE. CONGRATULATIONS!


Bush's pigheaded resolve has involved his country and this one in an illegal and immoral occupation of another sovereign country and the murder of many of its citizens.

America's standing is now at its lowest, worldwide. The sooner Bush's "resolve" is confined to the trashcan of history, the better. There is a long period of rebuilding necessary now, not more neo-con warmongering.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 10:36 pm
Yeah, and it's awfully embarrassing when our president is unable to speak the English language, and our vice president will be known in history as the "go fxxx yourself" vp.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 03:44 am
Quote:
I think Tony is toast.



White or wholemeal?

I think so too McTag. Although unlike you I'm sorry. He took a gamble on Iraq. Probably he had no real option... I don't know. Anyway the gamble didn't pay off thanks to the incompetence of Bush and the neo cons.

Rumours abound that he might resign on Wednesday after 10 years leader of the Labour party? Do you think so?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:02 am
Quote:
Osama's public crticisms of Saddam were nothing more than a propaganda ploy to fool fools into believing that despite credible evidence to the contrary, Osama and Saddam were not working together.


So let me see if I understand this.

There is credible evidence of UBL-Saddam co-operation. But UBL criticises Saddam. Therefore, by this cunning ploy, people are deceived into thinking no such co-operation exists.

Laughing

Ican you are wandering off into the happy lands of fantasy.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:11 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Quote:
I think Tony is toast.

Rumours abound that he might resign on Wednesday after 10 years leader of the Labour party? Do you think so?


No, I think he will brazen it out to the bitter end. The man is convinced of his own overdue deification.

No leader should concern himself, aloud, with "his place in history". that is for others.

Tony's place looks pretty ignominious to me.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:24 am
Quote:
theology does evolve as humankind learns and matures.


...to such an extent that the more learned and mature among us regard theology as a branch of anthropology
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:27 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Quote:
theology does evolve as humankind learns and matures.


...to such an extent that the more learned and mature among us regard theology as a branch of anthropology


Either that, or the bastard son of mythology . . .
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:37 am
Quote:
No leader should concern himself, aloud, with "his place in history". that is for others.



I didnt know he said this. Don't dispute what you say but do you know where and when?

Agree it sounds really bad, if not positively deranged.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 06:51 am
ican711nm


Quote:
I'm quick to ask for evidence just in case that person was doing something more than merely expressing his or her own opinion.


Foolish question since you know the answer. However, only someone with blind faith could believe otherwise. Our president, thinks, believes he is being directed by GOD. Is that any different from people who believe that they are G. Washinton or Napoleon. You know where they end up.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 07:06 am
ican711nm

I should add it is not the existence of God that I dispute but the falsity of the religions [cults] that have been promulgated by man to describe and worship the entity we call GOD.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 09:28 am
Critics of President Bush are citing the recent Senate Intelligence Committee Report as buttressing their charges that the president manipulated the CIA's pre-war weapons analysis and recklessly led the nation into war.

We strongly believe that these critics are wrong on both counts. First: The committee unanimously concluded that it "did not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce, influence, or pressure analysts to change their judgments." Second: Based on the facts as they were known at that time ?- and, indeed, based on what we know today ?- President Bush acted properly in going to war against Iraq and removing Saddam Hussein. Indeed, to have done otherwise in the post-9/11 world would have been irresponsible.

To see all this in proper perspective, consider the reaction if Iraq had attacked Americans with chemical or biological weapons in the Middle East, in Europe or in our cities here at home ?- or if terrorists carried out these attacks using Iraq's WMD ?- and the president tried to explain away the attacks by claiming there was no "hard" intelligence that Iraq possessed WMD or had any formal relationship with al Qaeda or other terrorist groups.

The American people ?- including the two of us ?- would have been outraged and demanded the president be removed for dereliction of his most basic obligation to provide for the common defense.

It would have been pointed out that in 1995, after insisting for four long years that Iraq had never produced biological weapons, Saddam Hussein was forced to acknowledge that Iraq had in fact produced 8,500 liters of anthrax, 19,180 liters of botulinum toxin and 10,000 liters of ricin.

Saddam made this admission only after being presented with documents provided to U.N. inspectors by his two sons-in-law who had defected. At that time, the inspectors located 16 warheads with anthrax and five warheads with botulinum toxin. Saddam, after being caught in the initial falsehood, still insisted he had destroyed the remaining anthrax, botulinum toxin and ricin ?- but offered absolutely no proof of the destruction.

As for chemical weapons, Saddam also admitted in 1995 to having possessed 3.9 tons of the deadly VX nerve gas and 10 tons of precursor chemicals. Not only did he fail to account for the VX, the U.N. inspections team in the late '90s concluded that Iraq might have enough precursor chemicals to produce as much as 200 additional tons of VX. (One drop of VX to uncovered skin results in death). Saddam also claimed to have "misplaced" 6,500 aerial bombs containing 700 tons of mustard gas.

Throughout the 12-year period following the end of the Gulf War, Saddam refused to cooperate with U.N. inspectors and violated 17 U.N. resolutions. This resulted in the imposition of economic sanctions which cost Iraq more than $100 billion in oil revenues over a 10-year period. Why would Saddam have continued to obstruct inspections and suffer such massive financial losses if he had nothing to hide?

No wonder that the CIA and every major intelligence agency in the world ?- including the French, Germans and Russians ?- concluded that Iraq had WMD. No wonder Bill Clinton said in 1998 "There should be no doubt that Saddam's ability to produce and deliver weapons of mass destruction poses a grave threat to the country and the world."

No wonder that, in 2002, Al Gore said, "We know Saddam has stored away many supplies of chemical and biological weapons throughout his country"; John Kerry said, "The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real"; and John Edwards said, "Iraq and Saddam Hussein provide the most severe and imminent threat."

A president cannot disregard the daily warning of the CIA director, George Tenet, not when the latter refers to the existence of weapons of mass destruction as a "slam dunk."

As to Saddam's relationship with al Qaeda, the Senate report acknowledges numerous contacts between the two but said these "did not add up to an established formal relationship." In this post-9/11 world, did anyone actually expect to see Saddam and al Qaeda enter into a formal Hitler-Stalin type accord?

And that is what this is all about. Unlike his detractors, George W. Bush realized that, ever since 9/11, we no longer had the luxury of giving an evil dictator in the most volatile region of the world the benefit of the doubt as to whether he still had the WMD which he admitted having and for which he refused to account.

President Bush did the right thing by liberating Iraq. As a result, the region and the world are safer and other terrorist dictators such as Libya's Moammar Khadafy have gotten the message that America means business.

That is why, as Sen. Joe Lieberman recently said, "We've come a long way in the cause of our national security and the freedom of the Iraqi people. We've got a lot to be proud of and to celebrate."

Indeed we do. Instead of brickbats from the loonies, craven and ideologues, President Bush is entitled to thanks from those with common sense.

link
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 10:06 am
"did not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce, influence, or pressure analysts to change their judgments." McG, This is not the problem. The problem is that this administration used unconfirmed intelligence information without questioning it's veracity to justify the war in Iraq. 100 percent of their information came from Iraq expats; and they all lied. In order for any president to justify war on the basis of 1) WMDs, 2) Saddam's relationship with al Qaida, and 3) Saddam's propensity to share WMDs with terrorists, turned out to be ALL WRONG. When this country sends our military into harms way, we must be 100 percent certain about the information used to justify war.
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