THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

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Years and years of agony and despair, while the condemned UN traded with our oil revenues in the name of world stability and peace.

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We thank all those, including those of Britain and the U.S. , who took to the streets in protest against this war and against Globalism. We also thank France, Germany and other states for their position, which least to say are considered wise and balanced, til now.

Ya, that guy sounds real informed. Laughing

Great scoop.

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By the way, folks. Did anyone catch Dick Gephardt this morning (in a sort of "goodbye" speech) saying he thought people all over the world deserved to be free.

He then said "And, it's America's job to free them".

Interesting, no?

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

Gelisgesti wrote:
Sound like anyone?
Yup.

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There is also a connotation of dishonesty about the troll's real identity.
Just exactly who is Gelisgesti anyway? Is that a real picture of you? Who do you work for?

A more recent picture .... perhapsa bit metaphoric.

'?

http://www.platypuspranks.com/RAVES/graphics/chupacabra.jpg

What is the nature of your inquiry and may I ask in turn, who inquires?

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JW writes

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By the way, folks. Did anyone catch Dick Gephardt this morning (in a sort of "goodbye" speech) saying he thought people all over the world deserved to be free.

He then said "And, it's America's job to free them".

Interesting, no?

I always thought of all the Democrat presidential wannabe's, Gebhardt and Lieberman were the two who had the right stuff. Both have been wounded at having to toe the party line including keeping the most radical leftwing fringe happy, and I never believed either really had their heart in it. For pure intelligence, common sense, and integrity, both are heads and shoulders above all the others.

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InfraBlue wrote:

ican, I had pointed out that you had provided reiterations of the 9/11 report's statements that amount to the words "indications," "tolerance" and "may even have helped" as confirmations of your "some evidence" which itself was the 9/11 report's statements that amount to the words "indications," "tolerance" and "may even have helped." That is circular reasoning, ican.

This is not a valid characterization of my posts on this subject. Look especially at the last two posts. In those posts, I assume the two paragraphs that I excerpted from the 9-11 Commission Report are true. Perhaps you were unable to comprehend my last two posts on this subject. Perhaps that's my fault so I'll try again by reposting the last one again after this post, and then invite you to critique it line by line. Maybe that way I can learn why you continue to mischaracterize my posts on this subject. We'll see.

InfraBlue wrote:

About the harboring of Ansar al Islam in Iraq, what is clear is that they were a group of KURDISH Islamist separatists operating in northern Iraq, Iraqi Kurdistan, an area that was, as acknowledged by Stars and Stripes, Voice of America and THE 9/11 COMMISSION ITSELF (or are you questioning the reliability of the 9/11 commission's report-the source of your evidence--itself?), outside the control of Baghdad, i.e. Saddam. The extremist groups that the 9/11 commission refers to were KURDS, EXTREMIST KURDS, they suffered major defeats by OTHER KURDS, THOSE OPPOSED TO THE EXTREMISTS.

That group of KURDISH Islamist separatists you refer to was aided by bin Laden, but defeated by the Kurds in the late 1990s; Here I'll call them the 1999s. The group to which I refer to was set up with the aid of bin Laden in 2001; Here I'll call them the 2001s. Both the 1999s and the 2001s were part of the al Qaeda confederation. It was the 1999s that the Kurds attacked and defeated. It was the 2001s that the Kurds chose not to attack. It was the 2001s that Saddam could have responded to the US demands and easily removed these al Qaeda by asking the Kurds to attack and defeat them too. Or, Saddam could have attacked and removed the 2001s with his own forces. Either way by his failure to exercise either choice, Saddam demonstrated that he tolerated harboring the 2001s in Iraq. Perhaps he also tolerated harboring the 1999s, in Iraq. Either way, the Kurd's made it clear by their actions that the 1999s were not under their protection. They exercised whatever control they had by defeating the 1999s.

What evidence do you have that the Kurd's changed their minds and decided in 2001-2003 to control and protect and not defeat the 2001s? What reason do you think they may have had for doing that if you think they actually did that?

I read:

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A group known as Jund al Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by al-Shafii, seized control of several villages near Halabja in September 2001 and established a local administration governed according to Sharia law. Mullah Krekar formed Ansar al Islam in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al Islam and a splinter group of his Islamic Movement in Kurdistan. In the area then under its control, Ansar barred women from education and employment, confiscated musical instruments and banned music both in public and private, banned satellite receivers and televisions, and threatened the use of Islamic punishments of amputation, flogging, and stoning to death for offenses such as theft, the consumption of alcohol, and adultery, according Human Rights Watch.

Regardless of whether or not this last quote is true, it does not refute my reasoning and my conclusion--Saddam harbored al Qaeda--from the 9-11 Commission Report. The quote is simply irrelevant. It is a "red herring."

I think you are making the error of thinking information that you have provided contradicts what I claim is probably true. It doesn't. If you wish to argue this further, please do so by attempting to explain why what you post is relevant to what I have posted. Otherwise I can't help but conclude that it is you are the rationalizer, and not me.

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That group of KURDISH Islamist separatists you refer to was aided by bin Laden, but defeated by the Kurds in the late 1990s; Here I'll call them the 1999s. The group to which I refer to was set up with the aid of bin Laden in 2001; Here I'll call them the 2001s. Both the 1999s and the 2001s were part of the al Qaeda confederation. It was the 1999s that the Kurd's attacked and defeated. It was the 2001s that the Kurd's chose not to attack. It was the 2001s that Saddam could have easily removed by asking the Kurd's to attack and defeat them too. Or, Saddam could have attacked and removed the 2001s with his own forces. Either way by his failure to exercise either choice, Saddam demonstrated that he tolerated harboring the 2001s in Iraq. Perhaps he also tolerated harboring the 1999s, in Iraq. Either way, the Kurd's made it clear by their actions that the 1999s were not under their protection. They exercised whatever control they had by defeating the 1999s.

Where is your source showing the seperation of the two groups? It has been my understanding that they are one and the same, and I've never seen it claimed otherwise.

They weren't 'defeated' in 1999; they were subdued, perhaps, but that's it.

Cycloptichorn

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About the Kurdish separatists. http://reference.allrefer.com/country-guide-study/turkey/turkey107.html

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Elections anyone?

Bomb blast strikes Iraq holy city Sistani's spokesman said the bomb might be an assassination bid
At least seven people have been killed and 30 injured in a bomb explosion in Iraq's holy city of Karbala.
The blast at the gate to a major Shia shrine, the Imam Hussein mausoleum, was the first serious attack in the city for several months.

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Important Test for Missile-Defense System Ends in Failure
By DAVID STOUT

Published: December 15, 2004

ASHINGTON, Dec. 15 - An important test of the United States' emerging missile-defense system ended in an $85 million failure early today as an interceptor rocket failed to launch as scheduled from the Marshall Islands, the Pentagon said.

A target rocket carrying a mock warhead was successfully launched from Kodiak, Alaska. But the interceptor, which was to have gone aloft 16 minutes later and picked off the target 100 miles over the earth, automatically shut down instead because of "an unknown anomaly," the Defense Department's Missile Defense Agency said.

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InfraBlue and Cycloptichorn:

The following is an excerpt from the 9-11 Commission Report, Chapter 2.4, that identifies who Turabi is and describes the full character of al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is not a homogeneous group of terrorists. Rather it is an heterogeneous affiliation or confedration of many groups of terrorists.

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Bin Ladin seemed willing to include in the confederation terrorists from almost every corner of the Muslim world. His vision mirrored that of Sudan's Islamist leader, Turabi, who convened a series of meetings under the label Popular Arab and Islamic Conference around the time of Bin Ladin's arrival in that country. Delegations of violent Islamist extremists came from all the groups represented in Bin Ladin's Islamic Army Shura. Representatives also came from organizations such as the Palestine Liberation Organization, Hamas, and Hezbollah.51

Please note in addition to Turabi, the previous quote mentions bin Laden's confederation, and bin Laden's Islamic Army Sura (i.e., bin Laden's al Qaeda).

The following quote is an excerpt from the 9-11 Commission Report, Chapter 2.4. It is a paragraph that too many have too narrowly and/or too illogically interpreted.

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To protect his own ties with Iraq, Turabi reportedly brokered an agreement that Bin Ladin would stop supporting activities against Saddam. Bin Ladin apparently honored this pledge, at least for a time, although he continued to aid a group of Islamist extremists operating in part of Iraq (Kurdistan) outside of Baghdad's control. In the late 1990s, these extremist groups suffered major defeats by Kurdish forces. In 2001, with Bin Ladin's help they re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam. There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy.54

Now let's examine this paragraph sentence by sentence.

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To protect his own ties with Iraq, Turabi reportedly brokered an agreement that Bin Ladin would stop supporting activities against Saddam.

Note that Turabi, an acknowledged participant in bin Laden's confederation and bin Laden's Islamic Army Sura (i.e., al Qaeda), had ties to Iraq. So Turabi is at least one al Qaeda communication channel to Saddam. We probably cannot know for sure all the agreements negotiated between bin Laden and Saddam (i.e., between al Qaeda and Iraq) in that relationship.

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Bin Ladin apparently honored this pledge, at least for a time, although he continued to aid a group of Islamist extremists operating in part of Iraq (Kurdistan) outside of Baghdad's control.

This group was also a member of bin Laden's confederation and bin Laden's Islamic Army Sura. That is, they were members of the al Qaeda confederation. There is no evidence that this group was not known to Saddam.

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In the late 1990s, these extremist groups suffered major defeats by Kurdish forces.

Clearly these Kurdish forces did not choose to tolerate the harboring of this al Qaeda group in Iraq any longer, but instead chose to destroy it.

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In 2001, with Bin Ladin's help, they re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam.

However, despite the Kurd's intolerance of the harboring of AaI's (i.e., Ansar al Islam's) al Qaeda predecessors, AaI was formed with bin Laden's (i.e., al Qaeda's) help. In 2001, AaI was thereby established as a member of al Qaeda's confederation and became harbored in northern Iraq. The intolerance that the Kurd's expressed and acted on toward the predecessors of AaI obviously did not materialize when AaI was established.

Whatever occurred or did not occur prior to 2001 is not relevent to AaI. All references to pre-2001 events that some allege are related to AaI's control or harboring are clearly not related at all to AaI's control or harboring, because AaI did not exist prior to 2001.

AaI with bin Laden's help became part of bin Laden's confederation and bin Laden's Islamic Army Sura (i.e., al Qaeda). In other words, as of 2001, two years before the US invaded Iraq, al Qaeda was harbored in Iraq.

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There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy.54

Well then, who probably did control the harboring of al Qaeda in Iraq? Did the Kurds, who were the acknowledged enemies of AaI's al Qaeda predecessors, exert their control over AaI? No! There's no evidence of that. Al Qaeda controlled that harboring. But then who willingly and knowingly and tolerantly harbored al Qaeda in Iraq? If not the Kurds, the enemies of the al Qaeda predecessors of AaI, then who? It had to be Saddam who willingly and knowingly and tolerantly harbored al Qaeda in Iraq. Otherwise, the Kurd's would probably have again at least attempted to destroy AaI, the al Qaeda successors of their al Qaeda enemies.

Alternatively, if Saddam did not tolerate AaI there and didn't want to bother to order his troops to remove AaI, he could have simply requested the Kurd's, the proven enemies of AaI's al Qaeda predecessors, to destroy AaI.

Again, all references to pre-2001 events that some allege are related to AaI's control or harboring are clearly not related at all to AaI's control or harboring, because AaI did not exist prior to 2001.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Important Test for Missile-Defense System Ends in Failure
By DAVID STOUT

Published: December 15, 2004

ASHINGTON, Dec. 15 - An important test of the United States' emerging missile-defense system ended in an $85 million failure early today as an interceptor rocket failed to launch as scheduled from the Marshall Islands, the Pentagon said.

Does this make you glad or sad?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Elections anyone?

Bomb blast strikes Iraq holy city Sistani's spokesman said the bomb might be an assassination bid
At least seven people have been killed and 30 injured in a bomb explosion in Iraq's holy city of Karbala.
The blast at the gate to a major Shia shrine, the Imam Hussein mausoleum, was the first serious attack in the city for several months.

Does this make you glad or sad?

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Sad that we've wasted so much money on something that works so poorly.

Happy that it's being reported so we maybe can get a system which works? Though I doubt it.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Sad that we've wasted so much money on something that works so poorly.
Happy that it's being reported so we maybe can get a system which works? Though I doubt it.

It's a very difficult problem to solve. We've been working on it more than 20 years. But we have a great many very talented people employed on it. So I bet we solve all its problems on Bush's watch.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

A more recent picture .... perhapsa bit metaphoric.

'?

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I have it on good faith that Gelisgesti looks exactly like that picture.

He is not of this world but is from a distant planet where existati know things that earthly beings do not know.

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Kara wrote:

I have it on good faith that Gelisgesti looks exactly like that picture.

He is not of this world but is from a distant planet where existati know things that earthly beings do not know.

I know that. He commutes regularly. I frequently see him pass. :wink:

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ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Sad that we've wasted so much money on something that works so poorly.
Happy that it's being reported so we maybe can get a system which works? Though I doubt it.
It's a very difficult problem to solve. We've been working on it more than 20 years. But we have a great many very talented people employed on it. So I bet we solve all its problems on Bush's watch.

[/b]

Which is why so many believe that God appointed him for this time. Sad