0
   

THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Nov, 2004 12:46 pm
ican, I read and enjoyed Ge's posting of that chart in the spirit in which he posted it. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Nov, 2004 02:14 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ican,
Your attempt to make it seem as if we were after AQ in Iraq all along does NOT match the reality of the wording of press confernces given by the admin at the time EXPLAINING why we were going to war in Iraq.

You're right I think. As I remember them, the press conferences I personally observed on TV either did not, or only briefly, presented the reasons I gave. The primary reason expressed over and over in those press conferences I watched was the alleged threat of Saddam's WMD. The reasons I gave are all derived from Powell's UN speech 2/5/2003, The 9-11 Commission Report, and The Duelfer Report.

I did not attempt "to make it seem as if we were after AQ in Iraq all along." I did attempt to show that the reasons I presented here in this forum were each one necessary and sufficient reasons for our invading Iraq on the ground. I have in several posts way way back stated that I considered it a Bush Administration blunder to have aided and abetted the news media's promotion of the invasion of Iraq on the sole basis of alleged ready to use WMD in Iraq.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I understand you think there WERE good reasons for going to war there; my point is that the reasons you are presenting were NOT the major reasons presented to the American public.
I agree! Thank you for helping me clarify that.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
You don't really need me to quote you dozens of speeches to SHOW where the emphasis was placed, do you? Because you already know: WMD.
I agree!

Cycloptichorn wrote:
There is little moral justification for finding reasoning after the fact in a military action like this, other than to 'support' one side of the argument....
I disagree! The fact that the Bush administration wrongly justified the invasion of Iraq does not imply in any way shape or form that it was immoral or otherwise unjustifiable for the US to invade Iraq. It implies only that the Bush administration truly blundered in actively helping promote a false (and even simplistic) reason.

While I continue to be irritated over that Bush blunder, I was and am greatly relieved by our invasion of Iraq. I think it was/is the right war, in the right place at the right time! I think that, because the actual evidence available before, and discovered since, our invasion makes it damn clear that in the near future we (as well as other western nations) would have otherwise been victims of terrorist attacks that would have made the 9/11/2001 attack look like a mere "anoyance."
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Nov, 2004 02:18 pm
Quote:
While I continue to be irritated over that Bush blunder, I was and am greatly relieved by our invasion of Iraq. I think it was/is the right war, in the right place at the right time! I think that, because the actual evidence available before, and discovered since, our invasion makes it damn clear that in the near future we (as well as other western nations) would have otherwise been victims of terrorist attacks that would have made the 9/11/2001 attack look like a mere "anoyance."


Cool.

I respect your opinion and your logic on this one. I just happen to disagree; given the ability for smaller, more mobile/non-government supported terrorism to make an impact these days, it doesn't profit the US to make more and more people angry at us in the Middle East and around the world. Our public perception has suffered considerably due to 9/11, and I just think that working together with the other nations of the world will probably profit us more in the future than this maverick invasion.

Hopefully, I'm wrong and you're right, tho!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Nov, 2004 03:13 pm
Kara wrote:
ican, I read and enjoyed Ge's posting of that chart in the spirit in which he posted it. Rolling Eyes

Kara .... <spoken in a whisper> shhhhh, don't get him all riled up ... first he starts talking weird ..... then he will post half of war and peace .... Ican is 'humor challenged' ..... you know, he has a hard time getting it.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Nov, 2004 05:55 pm
<whisper> Gotcha, Buddy.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Nov, 2004 06:29 pm
Some would think this a promising sign:
Quote:
(New York) Senate suspends U.N. expansion proposal amid criticism
11/18/2004, 5:36 p.m. ET
By MICHAEL GORMLEY
The Associated Press

...

... "Why this city or state would want to do anything for the U.N. is beyond me," said state Sen. Martin Golden, a Brooklyn Republican. He cited the U.N.'s oil-for-food program, which is being investigated by Congress for alleged corruption including reports that former Iraq President Saddam Hussein manipulated the $60 billion program.

"If this was Enron ... we would be taking these people out in cuffs," Golden said in an interview ...

... The United Nations Development Corp. referred questions about the Senate action to the New York City Economic Development Corp. A spokeswoman there said she didn't immediately know what the U.N. would do if the Legislature failed to approve the measure.

State Conservative Party Chairman Michael Long offered an alternative to handcuffing leaders of what he called the "corrupt" organization: "We should be considering moving the United Nations to France."

He said the U.N. "is not supportive of the United States, folded up shop when its members were attacked (in Iraq), does not pay for its support (and) is a burden to the residents of New York and the United States." The political leader said the Legislature "should be chastised for considering it." ...

While realistically, I expect little or nothing to come of this, the prospect has a certain appeal. It would be good to return that bit of real estate to the tax roll, and anything that alleviates Manhattan traffic is to be desired.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Nov, 2004 08:01 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
... given the ability for smaller, more mobile/non-government supported terrorism to make an impact these days, it doesn't profit the US to make more and more people angry at us in the Middle East and around the world. Our public perception has suffered considerably due to 9/11, and I just think that working together with the other nations of the world will probably profit us more in the future than this maverick invasion.


I think it important to our survival for us to work together with the other nations of the world to rebuild/reform Afghanistan and Iraq. I think it important to the survival of the people of other nations to work together with us to rebuild and reform Afghanistan and Iraq. However, the decision to execute our "maverick invasion" was right and timely despite the false and off putting reasons given to justify it. The sooner the destruction of al Qaeda, all the other terrorist organizations, and their cooperating harborers was begun, the fewer people al Qaeda et al would murder, and the fewer soldiers and civilians would eventually be killed in the fight to destroy al Qaeda et al.

Quickly now we must recognize that either we spend far more than we are spending now in our lives and money to rebuild and reform Afghanistan and Iraq, or we now must find a way to work with other nations that recognize that the rapid destruction of al Qaeda et al is as much in their enlightened self-interest as it is in ours. Is it feasible to get other nations not yet participating to participate? They need some incentive to convince themselves that it is not in their interest to let those of us currently involved to carry the entire load and foot all the rest of the bill.

What must that incentive be? I don't know! Hopefully, you or someone does.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Nov, 2004 08:07 pm
Gelisgesti wrote:
Kara wrote:
ican, I read and enjoyed Ge's posting of that chart in the spirit in which he posted it. Rolling Eyes

Kara .... <spoken in a whisper> shhhhh, don't get him all riled up ... first he starts talking weird ..... then he will post half of war and peace .... Ican is 'humor challenged' ..... you know, he has a hard time getting it.
Laughing Does that mean y'all are going to show me a little compassion? Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Nov, 2004 08:43 pm
ican, in this post of yours you quoted two passages from the 9/11 commission report:

ican wrote:
[9-11 Com, Chapt. 2.4, emphasis added by me]
Quote:
Similar meetings between Iraqi . . .


and

Quote:
[9-11 Com, Chapt. 2.4, emphasis added by me]
To protect his own ties with Iraq . . .


The first quote is not from chapter 2.4, it's from chapter 2.5. Your chapter reference is incorrect.

Also, you posted your quote of chapter 2.4 before your quote of chapter 2.5. You posted these quotes out of chronological order.

In chronological order, chapter 2.4 appears in the 9/11 commission report before 2.5. See, chronologically speaking, 2.4 precedes 2.5.

Chapter 2.4 is largely a reiteration of reports concerning bin Laden in Sudan. Just one sentence in that chapter deals with al-Qaeda and the Iraqi regime. "There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy." Notice the words "indications" concerning "toleration," and "may have" concerning the Iraq regime helping Ansar.

These are mere speculations!

Chapter 2.5 in turn is a reiteration of reports concerning bin Laden in Afghanistan. Three paragraphs are devoted to bin Laden and the Iraqi regime. The first is a reiteration of bin Laden's unsuccessful attempts to contact the Iraqi regime. The second reiterates reported meetings in 1998 between two al Qaeda members and Iraqi intelligence in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The third reiterates more meetings that MAY have occurred in 1999. The paragraph concludes with the statement that: "But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States," and refers to notes that admit that the reports the commission perused were unreliable.

Unlike the way you posted your quotes, ican, the commission first speculated on "indications" of "toleration" and came to the conclusion that the Iraq regime "may have" helped Ansar, then it denied any evidence of a collaborative operational relationship. (Notice how they didn't differentiate "collaborative operational relationship" from "collaborative harboring relationship" as you've twaddled about.)

Ergo, the 9/11 commission's speculations in chapter 2.4 were mere twiddlings.

The US ground invasion of Iraq was "justified" using self-describedly unreliable information propagandized to stir the paranoid American public into a warmongering frenzy.

The pretext for invading Iraq in the ground was based on absolutely false and propagandized accusations of large and readily available amounts of WMD deliverable to US targets in 45 minutes, misleading and propagandized accusations of al Qaeda being harbored by the Iraq regime.

We were also concerned for the Iraqi people.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 12:03 am
InfraBlue wrote:
The US ground invasion of Iraq was "justified" using self-describedly unreliable information propagandized to stir the paranoid American public into a warmongering frenzy.

The pretext for invading Iraq in the ground was based on absolutely false and propagandized accusations of large and readily available amounts of WMD deliverable to US targets in 45 minutes, misleading and propagandized accusations of al Qaeda being harbored by the Iraq regime.


Well thank you, that's very well put, and I agree with it.

The logical consequence would be impeachment and trial of the perpetrators of the crime, would it not.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 06:55 am
The peacefulness of a happily liberated country...

Quote:
A deadly dateline
Increasing dangers in Iraq make reporting the whole truth tough
BY HANNAH ALLAM
Knight Ridder Newspapers

BAGHDAD, Iraq - My 26th birthday party was perfect.

"Even a jaunt to the grocery store is a meticulously planned affair. Do you have a radio? A flak vest? A second car to watch for kidnappers?" - Hannah Allam
Stars glittered over the Baghdad hotel where I blew out the candles on a cake decorated by my four closest Iraqi friends. We stayed up until the dawn call to prayer rang from a nearby mosque, telling stories and debating the future of a country I'd grown to cherish.

A year later, only one of those friends is still alive. The poolside patio where they sang "Happy Birthday" in Arabic is empty most days, because foreign guests are afraid of snipers and mortars. The hotel has become a prison, and every foray outside its fortified gates is tinged with anxiety about returning in one piece.

Baghdad has never been tougher for journalists. Treacherous roads and kidnapping squads restrict travel. "Embedding" with the military or going with Iraqi government officials is the safest way to leave the capital. Our ability to uncover and tell the truth about Iraq - good and bad - has suffered terribly.
More
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 07:02 am
I am not doubting your article, but how would you reconcile all these stories of hardships vs. the idyllic happy pictures that larry is currently peddling?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 07:05 am
InfraBlue wrote:
ican, in this post of yours you quoted two passages from the 9/11 commission report:

ican wrote:
[9-11 Com, Chapt. 2.4, emphasis added by me]
Quote:
Similar meetings between Iraqi . . .


and

Quote:
[9-11 Com, Chapt. 2.4, emphasis added by me]
To protect his own ties with Iraq . . .


The first quote is not from chapter 2.4, it's from chapter 2.5. Your chapter reference is incorrect.

Also, you posted your quote of chapter 2.4 before your quote of chapter 2.5. You posted these quotes out of chronological order.

In chronological order, chapter 2.4 appears in the 9/11 commission report before 2.5. See, chronologically speaking, 2.4 precedes 2.5.

Chapter 2.4 is largely a reiteration of reports concerning bin Laden in Sudan. Just one sentence in that chapter deals with al-Qaeda and the Iraqi regime. "There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy." Notice the words "indications" concerning "toleration," and "may have" concerning the Iraq regime helping Ansar.

These are mere speculations!

Chapter 2.5 in turn is a reiteration of reports concerning bin Laden in Afghanistan. Three paragraphs are devoted to bin Laden and the Iraqi regime. The first is a reiteration of bin Laden's unsuccessful attempts to contact the Iraqi regime. The second reiterates reported meetings in 1998 between two al Qaeda members and Iraqi intelligence in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The third reiterates more meetings that MAY have occurred in 1999. The paragraph concludes with the statement that: "But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States," and refers to notes that admit that the reports the commission perused were unreliable.

Unlike the way you posted your quotes, ican, the commission first speculated on "indications" of "toleration" and came to the conclusion that the Iraq regime "may have" helped Ansar, then it denied any evidence of a collaborative operational relationship. (Notice how they didn't differentiate "collaborative operational relationship" from "collaborative harboring relationship" as you've twaddled about.)

Ergo, the 9/11 commission's speculations in chapter 2.4 were mere twiddlings.

The US ground invasion of Iraq was "justified" using self-describedly unreliable information propagandized to stir the paranoid American public into a warmongering frenzy.

The pretext for invading Iraq in the ground was based on absolutely false and propagandized accusations of large and readily available amounts of WMD deliverable to US targets in 45 minutes, misleading and propagandized accusations of al Qaeda being harbored by the Iraq regime.

We were also concerned for the Iraqi people.


I am anxiously waiting to see how ican is going to spin his answer.

This is all getting so wearisome.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 07:28 am
Quote:
...Baghdad has never been tougher for journalists. Treacherous roads and kidnapping squads restrict travel. "Embedding" with the military or going with Iraqi government officials is the safest way to leave the capital. Our ability to uncover and tell the truth about Iraq - good and bad - has suffered terribly.


Revel, the above part of blatham's reprint provides partial explanation for the disparity of views coming from Iraq. Journalists are in great danger there, as they are in most war zones. There are others in special peril there as well: anyone perceived as supporting "the enemy" or "the occupation" which is us. This includes newly trained Iraqi police and soldiers.

Many ordinary people get through the day alive unless they are a bystander when a targetted person is hit.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 07:39 am
Quote:
The fact that the Bush administration wrongly justified the invasion of Iraq does not imply in any way shape or form that it was immoral or otherwise unjustifiable for the US to invade Iraq. It implies only that the Bush administration truly blundered in actively helping promote a false (and even simplistic) reason.


<shakes head in dismay>

Joe
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 10:36 am
Quote:
shakes head in dismay


Another head joining you in that shiver of disbelief.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 10:43 am
Can I tie a couple bottles of chocalate milk to your heads? :wink:
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 11:36 am
Senior officials from Iraq's political parties have called for a two or three month delay of the country's planned January election, citing ongoing violence. During a one-day summit in Northern Iraq Thursday, Ibrahim al-Janabi, aide to Iraq interim prime minister Iyad Allawi, said it is not likely the security and technical issues surrounding the election can be solved quickly. It is not clear, however, who has legal authority to order a postponement given that the interim constitution says that it must be held by January 31. Two US State Department officials contacted did not have knowledge of the proposed delay.

Quote:
Iraq factions urge delay of election
At summit, politicians cite ongoing strife

By Thanassis Cambanis, Globe Staff | November 19, 2004

DUKAN, Iraq -- Leading Sunni politicians and representatives of Iraq's prime minister and president called yesterday for Iraq's national election to be postponed until order is restored in the violence-racked Sunni Arab heartland, the strongest signal yet that the ballot might not take place in January as scheduled.

The national election has been the linchpin of the US agenda in Iraq, and the interim government's main mission is supposed to be paving the way for an elected body to write a new constitution. But security has deteriorated in the Sunni Triangle, and US and Iraqi forces have struggled to establish order.

At a one-day summit of nearly all of Iraq's major political parties at a lakeside resort here in the Kurdish north, senior officials -- including a vice president and several ministers -- discussed delaying elections by two or three months until security can be established. Although the meetings are not binding, they are expected to shape the interim government's formal deliberations later in Baghdad.

It is unclear who has legal authority to postpone the election, which under the interim constitution is set to take place sometime before Jan. 31. But a top Allawi aide said the prime minister would consult his Cabinet, Iraq's Independent Election Committee, and the UN on the matter.

''I don't think in this short period we can establish security and solve the technical problems facing the election committee," said Ibrahim al-Janabi, interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi's right-hand man in the Iraqi National Accord. ''I think the delay or postponing of the election is more likely than holding them on time," Janabi said in an interview during a break in the closed-door meeting.

Two State Department officials reached yesterday afternoon in Washington said they had not heard about the meeting and could not immediately comment on it. However, they said that US policy has been to honor the wishes of the Iraqi people and that, as far as they knew, the government does not intend to delay the vote.

''This is a decision that the Iraqis are going to make based on what they think can be done," one of the officials said on condition of anonymity. ''The Iraqi government has said and continues to reiterate that their intention is to hold elections on schedule."

Moving the election date could open a serious rift between Sunnis, who fear that the vote will officially relegate them to minority status in the new government, and Shi'ites and Kurds, many of whom want the election to go ahead so they can claim their long-denied share of national political power and write a new constitution that guarantees their rights.

The retreat was originally supposed to focus on the electoral process and multiparty coalitions. The agenda shifted to emergency footing, however, with virtually every party claiming that in the current security climate, the election would be a bloody, lethal affair.

''Sunnis will boycott the elections if the security situation continues as it is now," said Mohsen Abdulhamid, head of the Iraqi Islamic Party, which withdrew from the government last week to protest the invasion of Fallujah by US and Iraqi forces.

But Shi'ite and Kurdish leaders at the meeting, who say they collectively represent about 85 percent of Iraq's population, said they were prepared to hold the election in January with or without participation from those in the Sunni Triangle. ''There is no perfect election in the world," said Sa'ad Jawad Qandil, a top official in the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, or SCIRI. ''If there are some minorities who cannot participate because of security, that is not a reason to cancel the decision of the majority."

In yesterday's meeting, Kurds and Shi'ites argued that Sunnis were holding the election process hostage, demanding a delay as long as their cities were plagued by the very violence for which they are responsible.

Nawshirwan Mustafa, a top official in the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, said that even though US and Iraqi government forces had failed to bring security, the election could not be indefinitely postponed.

''The government's credibility depends on sticking to the timetable," he said. ''There is no state in the world where 100 percent of the people take part in the vote."

Until now, Iraqi politicians have publicly skirted around the potentially explosive issue of the timing of the election.

Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the supreme religious authority for Iraq's majority Shi'ites, summoned hundreds of thousands of followers to the streets earlier this year to back his demand for a strict timetable for the election and a new constitution.

This summer, Allawi broached the possibility of holding the national election only in stable areas, simply leaving out those parts of the country too dangerous for a vote. He appeared to have backed away from that stance yesterday, however.

''You can't have elections in some cities and exclude others," Janabi, his aide, said. If you want to do this election you must do it in all Iraq at one time."

The United States has said it believes the election should be held in January across the entire nation, and designed the military offensive that began last month and includes operations in Fallujah and Mosul to achieve that goal.

Sunni Muslims thrived during Saddam Hussein's regime, and many mobilized early against the interim government, which is dominated by a mix of Shi'ite Arabs and Kurds. Now, fighting that is concentrated in the belt of Sunni cities at the heart of the insurgency, including Mosul, Baghdad, and Fallujah, has intensified the Sunni feeling of anger toward the government in Baghdad, making the political equation even more volatile.

''It's pretty difficult when you look at the security situation right now to say we can hold elections," said Hajim al-Hasani, a Sunni politician who has formed a new political party with President Ghazi al-Yawer.

Holding the vote in January would effectively disenfranchise the country's Sunni minority, Hasani said. ''You would be preparing the ground for something like civil war," he said.

Iraq's mostly ineffective police force and National Guard further complicate the problem. US commanders said they had hoped to clear insurgent strongholds and turn them over to Iraqi forces to patrol, in time for citizens to register to vote in December and cast their ballots in January.

But explosive violence has flared across the country in insurgent strongholds such as Mosul and Baqubah, even as US forces stormed through Fallujah. Yesterday in Mosul, insurgents took control of several neighborhoods and tried to kill the provincial governor, shelling his headquarters and killing one of his guards.

Kurdish and Shi'ite leaders said they were skeptical that postponing the election would do anything to further the fight against insurgents and terrorist groups.

Ahmed Chalabi, the former Pentagon favorite and leader of the Iraqi National Congress, has reemerged as a key coalition builder among religious Shi'ite parties. In yesterday's meeting, he said, he questioned those politicians who called for a delay.

''You ask to postpone these elections until the security situation improves," he said he told participants. ''Who says security will improve if the elections are postponed?"

The delegates left after 10 p.m. last night, with an agreement to lobby the government in Baghdad to allow more time for political parties to prepare for the elections, and to demand that the government include political parties in security planning.

The same leaders who yesterday berated the Iraqi government's failure to take charge of security themselves represent the government almost in its entirety. Several of them are now arguing behind the scenes that the government should deploy their party militias to provide security during the election.

SCIRI, the Iraqi National Congress, and both major Kurdish parties said their own fighters could effectively police large parts of Iraq if invited by the government.

No political groups allied with the insurgency attended the meeting. Neither did representatives of Moqtada al-Sadr, the radical Shi'ite cleric whose Mahdi Army has waged fierce battles with American forces in Sadr City, Najaf, and Karbala.

US and Iraqi government officials have opposed deploying the political parties' militias, saying such a move would open a Pandora's box, unleashing competing private armies accountable only to their commanders. They also fear that militias would increase the likelihood of internecine conflict after the election between the winners and losers.

Farah Stockman of the Globe staff contributed to this report from Washington. Thanassis Cambanis can be reached at [email protected].

DUKAN, Iraq -- Leading Sunni politicians and representatives of Iraq's prime minister and president called yesterday for Iraq's national election to be postponed until order is restored in the violence-wracked Sunni Arab heartland, the strongest signal yet that the ballot might not take place in January as scheduled.

The national election has been the linchpin of the US agenda in Iraq, and the interim government's main mission is supposed to be paving the way for an elected body to write a new Constitution. But security has deteriorated in the Sunni triangle, and US and Iraqi forces have struggled to establish order.

At a one-day summit of nearly all of Iraq's major political parties at a lakeside resort here in the Kurdish north, senior officials -- including a vice president and several ministers -- discussed delaying elections by two or three months until security can be established. Although the meetings are not binding, they are expected to shape the interim government's formal deliberations later in Baghdad.

It is unclear who has legal authority to postpone the election, which under the interim constitution is set to take place sometime before Jan. 31. But a top Allawi aide said the prime minister would consult his Cabinet, Iraq's Independent Election Committee, and the UN on the matter.

''I don't think in this short period we can establish security and solve the technical problems facing the election committee," said Ibrahim al-Janabi, interim prime minister Iyad Allawi's right-hand man in the Iraqi National Accord. ''I think the delay or postponing of the election is more likely than holding them on time," Janabi said in an interview during a break in the closed-door meeting.

Two State Department officials reached yesterday afternoon in Washington said they had not heard about the meeting and could not immediately comment on it. However, they said that US policy has been to honor the wishes of the Iraqi people and that, as far as they knew, the government does not intend to delay the vote.

''This is a decision that the Iraqis are going to make based on what they think can be done," one of the officials said on condition of anonymity. ''The Iraqi government has said and continues to reiterate that their intention is to hold elections on schedule."

Moving the election date could open a serious rift between Sunnis, who fear that the vote will officially relegate them to minority status in the new government, and Shi'ites and Kurds, many of whom want the election to go ahead so they can claim their long-denied share of national political power and write a new constitution that guarantees their rights.

The retreat was originally supposed to focus on the electoral process and multi-party coalitions. The agenda shifted to emergency footing, however, with virtually every party claiming that in the current security climate, the election would be a bloody, lethal affair.

''Sunnis will boycott the elections if the security situation continues as it is now," said Mohsen Abdulhamid, head of the Iraqi Islamic Party, which withdrew from the government last week to protest the invasion of Fallujah by US and Iraqi forces.

But Shi'ite and Kurdish leaders at the meeting, who say they collectively represent about 85 percent of Iraq's population, said they were prepared to hold the election in January with or without the Sunni triangle.

''There is no perfect election in the world," said Sa'ad Jawad Qandil, a top official in the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, or SCIRI. ''If there are some minorities who cannot participate because of security, that is not a reason to cancel the decision of the majority."

In yesterday's meeting, Kurds and Shi'ites argued that Sunnis were holding the election process hostage, demanding a delay as long as their cities were plagued by the very violence for which they are responsible.

Nawshirwan Mustafa, a top official in the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, said that even though US and Iraqi government forces had failed to bring security, the election could not be indefinitely postponed.

''The government's credibility depends on sticking to the timetable," he said. ''There is no state in the world where 100 percent of the people take part in the vote."

Until now, Iraqi politicians have publicly skirted around the potentially explosive issue of the timing of the election.

Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the supreme religious authority for Iraq's majority Shi'ites, summoned hundreds of thousands of followers to the streets earlier this year to back his demand for a strict timetable for the election and a new constitution.

This summer, Allawi broached the possibility of holding the national election only in stable areas, simply leaving out those parts of the country too dangerous for a vote. He appeared to have backed away from that stance yesterday, however.

''You can't have elections in some cities and exclude others," Janabi, his aide, said. If you want to do this election you must do it in all Iraq at one time."

The United States has said it believes the election should be held in January across the entire nation, and designed the military offensive that began last month and includes operations in Fallujah and Mosul to achieve that goal.

Sunni Muslims thrived during Saddam Hussein's regime, and many mobilized early against the interim government, which is dominated by a mix of Shi'ite Arabs and Kurds. Now, fighting that is concentrated in the belt of Sunni cities at the heart of the insurgency, including Mosul, Baghdad, and Fallujah, has intensified the Sunni feeling of anger toward the government in Baghdad, making the political equation even more volatile.

''It's pretty difficult when you look at the security situation right now to say we can hold elections," said Hajim al-Hasani, a Sunni politician who has formed a new political party with President Ghazi al-Yawer.

Holding the vote in January would effectively disenfranchise the country's Sunni minority, Hasani said. ''You would be preparing the ground for something like civil war," he said.

Iraq's mostly ineffective police force and National Guard further complicate the problem. US commanders said they had hoped to clear insurgent strongholds and turn them over to Iraqi forces to patrol, in time for citizens to register to vote in December and cast their ballots in January.

But explosive violence has flared across the country in insurgent strongholds such as Mosul and Baqubah, even as US forces stormed through Fallujah. Yesterday in Mosul, insurgents took control of several neighborhoods and tried to kill the provincial governor, shelling his headquarters and killing one of his guards.

Kurdish and Shi'ite leaders said they were skeptical that postponing the election would do anything to further the fight against insurgents and terrorist groups.

Ahmed Chalabi, the former Pentagon favorite and leader of the Iraqi National Congress, has reemerged as a key coalition builder among religious Shi'ite parties. In yesterday's meeting, he said, he questioned those politicians who called for a delay.

''You ask to postpone these elections until the security situation improves," he said he told participants. ''Who says security will improve if the elections are postponed?"

The delegates left after 10 p.m. last night, with an agreement to lobby the government in Baghdad to allow more time for political parties to prepare for the elections, and to demand that the government include political parties in security planning.

The same leaders who yesterday berated the Iraqi government's failure to take charge of security themselves represent the government almost in its entirety. Several of them are now arguing behind the scenes that the government should deploy their party militias to provide security during the election.

SCIRI, the Iraqi National Congress, and both major Kurdish parties said their own fighters could effectively police large parts of Iraq if invited by the government.

No political groups allied with the insurgency attended the meeting. Neither did representatives of Moqtada al-Sadr, the radical Shi'ite cleric whose Mahdi Army has waged fierce battles with American forces in Sadr City, Najaf, and Karbala.

US and Iraqi government officials have opposed deploying the political parties' militias, saying such a move would open a Pandora's box, unleashing competing private armies accountable only to their commanders. They also fear that militias would increase the likelihood of internecine conflict after the election between the winners and losers.
Source
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 11:49 am
McGentrix wrote:
Can I tie a couple bottles of chocalate milk to your heads? :wink:


Ahhh yes, the rain forest, the harsh cry of a macaw in the distance ... the screech of a baboon deffending his favorite banana tree .. the 'clop clop clop' of the burro carrying two people with stars in their eyes, chocolate milk strapped tightly to their wagging heads to a tune playing on a fisher price wind up music box ... 'hey mr. tally man tally mi bananas .... siiigh ..... thanks for the memory Mcgentrix
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 01:02 pm
My guess is that the election will go on as scheduled and it will be completed efficiently and effectively. Any other course will give aid and comfort and a sense of victory to the terrorists.
0 Replies
 
 

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