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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 12:54 pm
well obviously ICAN, he (the president) should turn Iraq into a parking lot.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 12:56 pm
I suppose the best answer would have been 'don't invade Iraq in the first place.'

But now that we are there....

We've discussed before my opinion, Icann, that the best way to beat the insurgent is to win the populace over to our side by giving them a cut of the oil money and a cut of the rebuilding money.

We aren't doing that, at all.

The military who remains in Iraq cannot stay there as a police force for five years. It simply isn't going to work. Our latest push into Fallujah hasn't accomplished anything except pissing off a bunch of Muslims for attacking during their holy month.

Until we can institute the changes neccessary to win over the hearts and minds of the people of Iraq, our military has no other real option than to sit tight and defend the things that need defending. Going around levelling cities and killing a few insurgents here and there will help nothing, except for the insurgents' cause....

Were you looking for some easy, sound-byte answer? You know as well as I do that it doesn't work that way. I know our military is trying their best to handle what is, essentially, a terrible situation, so I don't really blame them for trying; I'm just not confident of our chances of success at this point.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
gav
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 01:19 pm
ICAN I think you could get down on your hands and knees and BEG the UN for help - ALOT of help. Lets face it, if you listened to them in the first place, you wouldn't be in this sorry ass situation!!!
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 01:44 pm
Ican, I say we 'shant' !
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 02:09 pm
Quote:
Fallujah and the Aftermath

In Baiji on Sunday, clashes between US troops and guerrillas left 12 Iraqis dead and 25 wounded.

Most Americans do not realize that Fallujah is celebrated in Iraqi history and poetry for its defiance of the British in the Great Rebellion of 1920. The 1920 revolution against the British is key to modern Iraqi history. One of the guerrilla groups taking hostages named itself the "1920 Revolution Brigades." Western journalists who don't know Iraqi history have routinely mistranslated the name of this group.

For the history of Fallujah in anti-colonialism, see Rashid Khalidi's article in In these times

Meanwhile, The Guardian hints around that the number of civilian casualties in the US assault on the city is enormous and will only come out as hospital authorities begin counting the dead and wounded.

Karl Vicks reports concerning the outbreaks of violence in several Sunni Arab cities that:


"The most immediate concern for the interim government is manpower. Iraq has no more than eight battalions of the newly trained troops, whose main job is to occupy cities after U.S. forces defeat insurgents. Duty in Samarra and Fallujah, which have about a half million people between them, already was stretching that force thin. Adding duty in Mosul "means you're operating right out on the edge of what forces you have -- Iraqi forces," the U.S. official said.

American forces may be stretched thin as well. A battalion deployed outside Fallujah raced back to its Mosul base when insurgents struck, attacking in groups as large as 50 at a time, numbers not previously seen in the city, said Lt. Col. Paul Hastings of Task Force Olympia, the brigade that in February replaced a much larger unit, the 101st Airborne Division."



Mr. Vicks seems unaccountably elated at the news of Shiite tribal warriors attacking Sunni guerrillas in the Latifiyah area. There has already been some Sunni-Shiite violence in that region, a phenomenon thankfully somewhat rare so far, and it isn't a good sign if it escalates.

One of two Iraqi vice presidents, Kurdish politician Barham Salih, has admitted that elections might be postponed because of the poor security situation. In my view, his statement should be taken as a sign of nervousness on the part of the Kurds at the outcome. If the Sunni Arabs boycott, you could well see most of the 275 seats going to Shiites, with perhaps 35 or so for the Kurds. They would be a small, Sunni minority and could not depend on Sunni Arab allies to slow the Shiite legislative juggernaut. It may well be this prospect of a tyranny of the Shiite majority that frightened Salih into his statement (which is not supported by any major policy makers, and which is opposed by Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani.

I was talking to an Iraqi government official and I complained that if the Sunni Arabs boycott the January elections, it would be a disaster. He said that UN officials believe a boycott is unlikely, based on experience in Peru and elsewhere.

But actually, the Bahrain Shiites boycotted the first free elections to be held in years, as a result of which the parliament is dominated by Sunni fundamentalists. The same thing could happen in Iraq in reverse. And, if it does happen, it will be the nail in the coffin for any legitimacy for the next Iraqi government.

Mon, Nov 15, 2004 0:02
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 02:13 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
... But now that we are there....

We've discussed before my opinion, Icann, that the best way to beat the insurgent is to win the populace over to our side by giving them a cut of the oil money and a cut of the rebuilding money.

We aren't doing that, at all.


We have agreed and we continue to agree with the proposal you previously posted regarding giving the Iraqi people a cut of oil money by distributing to them dividend paying, Iraqi oil stock.

I guess current Iraqi oil revenues are paying some of the past and present, Coalition and Iraqi provisional government, expenses for conducting the current effort to rebuild infra-structure, maintaining oil production, and establishing free elections in January. I also guess the cost of all that exceeds current Iraqi oil revenue. Consequently, I quess it likely that implementing the oil revenue sharing idea we both support will be delayed until the insurgents are adequately controlled. It's the 'ol "Catch 22 problem:" We're unlikely to begin adequately controling the insurgents until the oil revenue sharing idea is implemented; We're unlikely to implement the oil revenue sharing idea until the insurgents are adequately controlled. So I guess we must implement the oil revenue sharing idea even if we have to finance it ourselves.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 02:18 pm
That's not a bad idea, Icann - an immediate implementation of the programme, financed by the US for the first 3 years with the next 6 going to pay us back. This could generate real results with the Iraqi people.

We can sell the program as 'investing in the lives of Iraqis.' The media would eat it up.

I wonder... if the corporate oil interests in America would ever allow it to happen?

Note that I also believe that it is neccessary to cut the Iraqis in on the rebuilding effort as well, in an attempt to employ Iraqis. Unemployment and loss of hope do bad things to a man; hopefully we can stem the tide of those joining the insurgents by giving people, frankly, something else to do with their time.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 02:37 pm
gav wrote:
ICAN I think you could get down on your hands and knees and BEG the UN for help - ALOT of help. Lets face it, if you listened to them in the first place, you wouldn't be in this sorry ass situation!!!


Right, not this current situation, but instead a worse one. The UN impeded by French and Russian Security Council vetos would have done little more than cluck to prevent the continuing murder and maiming of Iraqi citizens by the Iraqi government, to prevent the continuing build up of al Qaida in Iraq, or to prevent the resumption of WMD development in Iraq after sanctions were reduced. That of course doesn't even begin to take into account the deleterious effect of the corruption of the Oil-for-Food program by Saddam and Kofi, or that such gangster nations as Syria run the UN Human Rights Commission.

By the way, I don't recall our invasion of Afghanistan being authorized by UN resolution. Yet Afghanistan's democratization is nevertheless going ok.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 02:46 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
That's not a bad idea, Icann - an immediate implementation of the programme, financed by the US for the first 3 years with the next 6 going to pay us back. This could generate real results with the Iraqi people.
I agree!

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I wonder... if the corporate oil interests in America would ever allow it to happen?
Enligtened self-interest is a wonderful motivator for good.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Note that I also believe that it is neccessary to cut the Iraqis in on the rebuilding effort as well, in an attempt to employ Iraqis. Unemployment and loss of hope do bad things to a man; hopefully we can stem the tide of those joining the insurgents by giving people, frankly, something else to do with their time.
I agree. That too must wait upon adequate control of the insurgents, but could be accelerated by the oil revenue sharing program.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 02:50 pm
Yay! Agreement with Icann, I never dreamed it would happen.

Step 2, Icann: how do those who think this is a good idea go about making this happen? I've written my congressman, House Rep, Governor, and a lot of other people talking about, SPECIFICALLY, this issue....

I think of it as the classic carrot-and-stick scenario. Previously, we've dangled the 'carrot' of democracy in front of the Iraqi people, but I think that democracy is too foreign/idealistic of an idea for the people of Iraq to unify behind and strive towards. Now, we should switch carrots without removing the stick; democracy will still be there, but also things like financial solvency for it's people, and ownership - now this would be an example of a REAL ownership society. Bush would absolutely knock 'em dead if he proposed this one.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 02:55 pm
After Falluja
Operation Iraqi Freedom is entering it's decisive phase. What happens next?
by Tom Donnelly
11/10/2004 12:00:00 AM

Quote:
MORE THAN EIGHTEEN MONTHS after it began, Operation Iraqi Freedom may be entering its decisive phase. At last, the battle is being joined in the Sunni heartland. The stronghold of Saddam Hussein's rule was left relatively untouched in the initial invasion, was given a death-bed reprieve last spring, and has been the rallying point for insurgents since the fall of Baghdad. With elections scheduled for January and the Alawi government in Baghdad at risk, the inevitable could no longer be postponed.

Thus, the long-awaited "Battle of Falluja" has been joined. But though the fighting in the town of 300,000 is center stage, Falluja is best understood as just a part of a larger campaign in al Anbar province. And victory, as always, will be measured not simply in combat, but in the liberation--and the greater stability--to follow. For the United States and for a free Iraq, what matters is not how rapidly coalition forces reduce the resistance, but how safe the streets of Falluja, Ramadi, Baqubah, and other towns become in the next few months. Ultimately, it is not the body count, but the vote count that will be decisive.

That said, only success in battle can create the conditions for political success. And destroying Falluja as a citadel of insurgency is essential across Iraq and, indeed, for the larger war in the Middle East. Iraqi, Arab, Muslim, and American eyes are watching. Last April's withdrawal from Falluja was not just a tactical retreat, it was a strategic defeat. Likewise--and perhaps despite the casualties, including civilian casualties--this fight must be seen to be a victory for American and Iraqi arms.

To ensure that outcome, coalition commanders have amassed a force of about 6,000 U.S. and 2,000 Iraqi soldiers, or about four times more than the Marine force which conducted the April assault. This force includes not just dismounted infantry and Marines but two battalions of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles. In preparing the battlefield, artillery and air power were used to target likely insurgent command posts and fortified positions. In his Tuesday television press conference, Lt. Gen. Thomas Metz, in overall command of the attack, claimed the operation was "ahead of schedule" and that initial resistance had been lighter than feared.

Perhaps even more important, Metz said that the cordon around Falluja was complete. While any individual--such as notorious terrorist Abu Mussab al Zarqawi--may well escape, the attack is clearly designed to render the resistance in the city as ineffective as possible. As in this summer's campaign against Shia insurgents in Najaf, the meticulous dismemberment of the enemy's military organization is the prime objective of the Falluja operation.

While there will still be much work and continued fighting for a long time to come, a successful campaign in the Sunni Triangle will do much to clear the way for elections in Iraq next year. Given the many mistakes made since Saddam was toppled from power, this is a remarkable achievement. It is a testament to the persistence of President Bush and the U.S. armed forces, as well as the strong desire of Iraqis for a better future. But it is also a reflection of the weakness of the enemy. Zarqawi and his ilk have failed utterly to spark the ethnic civil war they sought. If American policymakers were slow to understand the realities of post-Saddam Iraq, the opposition has been even more unable to find a way to derail the two-steps-forward-one-step-back progress toward a new political order.

When this phase of fighting is done--perhaps in a week or 10 days--there will come a moment when the leaders of Iraq's Sunni community must seize the opportunity this campaign will create. The decision to move from war to peaceful politics lies with Sunni leaders and tribal elders, but the forces in and around Falluja will have given them a powerful incentive to choose a new path and make a constructive contribution to the future of Iraq.


Tom Donnelly is a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and a contributing writer to The Daily Standard.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 03:06 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Yay! Agreement with Icann, I never dreamed it would happen.
I'm an optimist so I dreamed it. I even dreamed you would some day type Ican istead of Icann. Smile

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Step 2, Icann: how do those who think this is a good idea go about making this happen? ... Bush would absolutely knock 'em dead if he proposed this one.


You've made a great start. I want to ponder my answer to your question for a while. We're definitely on to something good!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 03:12 pm
Damn, I've been mis-spelling your name for months!

Sorry!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 03:30 pm
Cycloptichorn,

I can think of several ways to promote this idea. Probably we ought to take more than one approach simultaneously.

One of the things that might help is to poll the able2know participants first in this forum then in all related forums. My hope is that the result of such a poll might help us build a cadre to help us critique and mold the idea.

To start we need to first post a clear and complete description of the idea. Would you like to try to try your hand at appropriately editing the article you first posted here on the idea?

Meanwhile, I'll continue to ponder.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 03:34 pm
Okay, I'll work on it tonight.

'Liquid Freedom' is the name of the article, and I think I'll start up a new thread with said title.

Cheers

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 03:39 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Okay, I'll work on it tonight.

'Liquid Freedom' is the name of the article, and I think I'll start up a new thread with said title.


Excellent!
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 09:09 pm
I don't know if what I am about to post is relavant to this discussion, I doubt it is, but it is relavant to Iraq and a disturbing thing going on there with the media.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=655&ncid=655&e=2&u=/oneworld/20041115/wl_oneworld/4536978941100532836

Press Watchdog "Deeply Disturbed" by Iraqi Regime's Media Threat

Mon Nov 15, 9:33 AM ET


Quote:
It warned that journalists should not attach "patriotic descriptions to groups of killers and criminals," and urged the media to "set aside space in your news coverage to make the position of the Iraqi government, which expresses the aspirations of most Iraqis, clear."


"You must be precise and objective in handling news and information," according to the statement, which was reported by Associated Press and Reuters. "We hope you comply Â…otherwise we regret we will be forced take all the legal measures to guarantee higher national interests," it said, without elaboration.


The New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists (CPA) said it was "deeply disturbed" by the statement.


"We are very troubled by this directive, which is an attempt to control news coverage through government coercion," said CPJ's executive director, Ann Cooper. "It damages the government's credibility in establishing a free and democratic society."



Harper already has a thread about the link and artcile I am going to leave but just in case some don't go to that thread.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041116/wl_nm/iraq_marine_shooting_dc

U.S. Military Probes Shooting of Iraqi in Falluja

30 minutes ago


Quote:
The Iraqi was one of five wounded left in the mosque after Marines fought their way in on Friday and Saturday. The U.S. military has accused insurgents in Iraq (news - web sites) of using mosques to launch attacks against American forces.


U.S. forces, along with Iraqi government troops, launched an offensive one week ago on Falluja, and have gained overall control of the formerly rebel-held city, although scattered resistance remains.


Maj. Douglas Powell, a Marine Corps spokesman at the Pentagon (news - web sites), said the investigation, being conducted by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, focused on "possible law of war violations" by U.S. Marines.


The pool report by NBC correspondent Kevin Sites said the mosque had been used by insurgents to attack U.S. forces, who stormed it and an adjacent building, killing 10 militants and wounding the five.


Sites said the wounded had been left in the mosque for others to pick up and move to the rear for treatment. No reason was given why that had not happened.


A second group of Marines entered the mosque on Saturday after reports it had been reoccupied. Footage from the embedded television crew showed the five still in the mosque, although several appeared to be already close to death, Sites said.


He said one Marine noticed one of the prisoners was still breathing.


A Marine can be heard saying on the pool footage provided to Reuters Television: "He's f***ing faking he's dead. He faking he's f***ing dead."


"The Marine then raises his rifle and fires into the man's head. The pictures are too graphic for us to broadcast," Sites said.


The report said the Marine had returned to duty after being shot in the face a day earlier.


Sites said the shot prisoner "did not appear to be armed or threatening in any way."


NBC showed blurred images of the Marine and the shooting was heard though not seen on its news program in the United States on Monday night, but the network made the full video available to media.


Powell said the investigation was ongoing and no charges had yet been brought against any of the Marines.


"As soon as the video was brought to the attention of the Marines Corps leadership by the reporter, they immediately pulled the unit off the front lines and launched an investigation," Powell said.


"They're not doing combat operations any more," he added.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 11:07 pm
If there is an act of "harboring" then there is, by definition, "a relationship wherein the parties to such relationship act in concert to perpetrate their action or actions," which is how you, ican, define the phrase "collaborative operational relationship." In the act of harboring, the parties act in concert to perpetrate their action, harboring, with one party "giving shelter or refuge," and the other "taking said shelter in or as if in a harbor." That is, by definition, a "collaborative operational relationship."

The 9/11 Commission alleges none between al Qaeda and Iraq.

It is logical to assume that Powell was talking out of his ass in his speech to the UN. It is irrelevant how many times Saddam was informed by us that Zarqawi was harbored in Iraq. Zarqawi was harbored in Northern Iraq, in Iraqi Kurdistan, a place where Saddam had no governance! The coalition forces were providing cover for the autonomous governance of the Kurdish people there! What part of that fact are you having trouble comprehending, ican?

Powell propagandized the facts to sell a war to the paranoid American public which was seething for revenge and the spilling of blood after 9/11, and the war in Afghanistan just didn't quench that lust. The war in Iraq has barely suffonisfied.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 11:23 pm
Not surprising that I've never seen any criticism of the enemy our soldier's face there on a daily basis.

An enemy who purposely does not wear a uniform and is pretty much indistinguishable from the citizenry of the area - an act of deceiption and against military law.

An enemy that will put on the uniform of an Iraqi policeman - an act of deception and against military law.

An enemy that will wave a white flag of surrender, only to open fire when opportunity knocks - an act of deception and against military law.

An enemy that will "booby-trap" their own dead, in order to blow up our soldiers on burial detail.

Not one word.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 03:03 am
JustWonders wrote:
Not surprising that I've never seen any criticism of the enemy our soldier's face there on a daily basis.

An enemy who purposely does not wear a uniform and is pretty much indistinguishable from the citizenry of the area - an act of deceiption and against military law.

An enemy that will put on the uniform of an Iraqi policeman - an act of deception and against military law.

An enemy that will wave a white flag of surrender, only to open fire when opportunity knocks - an act of deception and against military law.

An enemy that will "booby-trap" their own dead, in order to blow up our soldiers on burial detail.

Not one word.


Criticism? Very few situations are improved by a declaration of war.

I criticise a country which will falsify reasons to attack another country.
A military which will attack a weaker enemy with massive force.
A military which will used bombers against civilians.
A military which uses cluster bombs and uranium-tipped ordnance, poisoning the land for future unborn generations.
A military which will call in air strikes against vehicles, against unarmed groups of pedestrians, against wedding parties even.
A military which uses artillery barrages on a town containing civilians.
A military which will bring down buildings, irrespective of who may be underneath them.

So, War is hell. Shame, that all the participants do not dress themselves properly or observe the niceties others would impose on them.
0 Replies
 
 

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