THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

OCCOM BILL wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Would you go after America for supporting a/o installing those despotic pieces of filth, Bill?
No more than I'd commit suicide if I made a tragic error. Instead, I'd do what I could to correct it.

the problem is ,the usa instead of asking why the world hates them, have just gone and given more people reasons to hate them.you have to realise the usa havent been the good guys in a war since 1945.
weve had korea (usa had no business going there),vietnam (illegal war.full of us-committed atrocities,which incidentally john kerry spoke out against 30 years ago) ,cuba (fulgencio batista military dictator backed by the us til castro came),nicaragua (somosa i think was the left wing president deposed by the cia) ,guatemala (same situation as nicaragua,guatemala actually proved to be the spark which led to ernesto guevara becoming a legendary revolutionary),chile (pinochet-backet by the usa and margaret thatcher overthrew salvador allende,and murdered thousands of his citizens for having the cheek to DEMOCRATICALLY elect allende..arent the americans suposed be the defenders of democracy?? ) ,argentina (usa backed the right wing military there) ,brazil (read argentina) ,iraq (who put saddam hussein in power??) ,iran (best mates with the usa til the iranians had a revolution of their own), palestine (usa backs every israeli move despite being against every UN directive), saudi arabia (oil-buddies of uncle sam,saudi arabia is the most reperesive muslim state in the middle east,its a dictatorship.but what the heck,they have oil), the former soviet "stans" (lunatic dictators in at least 2 of them, backed by the usa) ,venezuela (hugo chávez was overthrown by a cia backed operation because "chavez does not represent the best interests of the united states"-actual quote from american senator!) amongst others over the past 50 years suffer from american invasions,and/or support for dictators who tow the far-right american line.

americans need to realise why so many people on this planet hate their country. unfortunately theyre too stupid to realise that they could prevent the problem easier than the task of fixing it later

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The US was on the right side of the korean and the first gulf war.

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Some of you seem to think war is a polite game. I do not feel or believe we had any valid reason to invade Iraq, I have made it perfectly clear. In addition I believe by doing so we have increased and abetted terrorism. However, that is water under the bridge. At this juncture we must use every resource at hand to win the battles and exterminate the insurgency. Will this endear us to the Iraqi people, no the reverse is probably true? Nevertheless, as I said before the US is between a rock and a hard place and must stay the course whatever it takes. We cannot cut and run, nor can we afford to allow Iraq to fall into the hands of the fundamentalists. If it did that would only compound the administrations error.

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I agree with that above post.

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Einherjar

Quote:

The US was on the right side of the korean and the first gulf war.

WE finally agree on something. Rolling Eyes

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au1929 wrote:

Einherjar

Quote:
The US was on the right side of the korean and the first gulf war.

WE finally agree on something.

I'm sure you were on the right side of some other wars too, but those two are the easiest to argue.

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Cluster Munitions fall into 2 categories: Air Dropped and Artillery Delivered, which subtype includes several variants in both 105MM and 155MM caliber tube-fired and the MLRS-launched TACAMS missle. Area-denial weapons, they air-disperse either individualy or in combination a number of independent anti-personnel or anti-armor sub-munitions, or "bomblets", over a relatively wide area. The area of coverage is dependent on burst altitude, bursting charge strength and configuration, and sub-munition configuration, with the density of coverage, or number-of-bomblets-per-unit-of-measure, a function of the foregoing plus the capacity of the delivering, or "Parent", munition,

Typical coverage area ranges from dozens to several hundred square meters per delivering munition depending on type delivered. All are classed as "dumb" munitions; they have no independent target-seeking capability. They are by design and function relatively imprecise 'blanket" weapons, as opposed to point-aimed or terminally guided "precision" weapons.

They are of no tactical advantage deployed in an urban environment; structures and rubble are disadvantageous to the design function of the weapon (wide-area sub-munition dispersal), as well as providing target forces with shelter from blast and schrapnel effect. Apart from that contraindication, there is the consideration of own-force exposure upon entry into the target area to inadvertantly unexploded but still lethal submunitions - of which there always will be a fraction of the total delivered submunitions, and to intentional delayed-detonation submunitions, which type are a subcomponent of most sub-munition payloads.

In short, there is no reason to use cluster weapons in urban environments, and significant reason to not do so. It just doesn't pay; there are cheaper, more efficient, more effective, more precise tools readily available for the task at hand. Its a clear-cut cost/benefit thing.

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Einherjar wrote:

The US was on the right side of the korean and the first gulf war.

So by that rationale, another group of countries should band together and chase America out of Iraq? Thats why the first Gulf War started isn't it? An unprovoked invasion of Kuwait? Why did America get involved in Korea?

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Was that a rhetorical question, gav?

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Yes and No? Laughing

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Cool ... you had me concerned there for a moment. I know Korea is called "The Forgotten War" and all, but your question gave me pause :cool:

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gav wrote:

Einherjar wrote:
The US was on the right side of the korean and the first gulf war.

So by that rationale, another group of countries should band together and chase America out of Iraq? Thats why the first Gulf War started isn't it? An unprovoked invasion of Kuwait? Why did America get involved in Korea?

So, are you claiming that there is nosuch thing as a right side to a war? Why did WWII start, you seem to think the US was on the right side of that one.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

mesquite wrote:
I am looking at the bigger picture and I was looking at it long before the invasion, which is why I was so set against it. Short history lesson... we were attacked by fundamentalist Islam. Islamic Fundamentalism was oppressed under Saddam. Islamic fundamentalism is now taking over Iraq. If you think I am not aware if the ramifications of Islam, then check out a few of my posts.
dangerously deluded
Sharia
apostates
Very insightful posts. I got stuck reading the latter two threads. I'm now more confused about your position than ever I was... unless you are in agreement that we need to finish the job completely now that we've started and just object to the specific tactics being used. You clearly don't doubt that condemn is an appropriate word for the effect our abandonment would have.

I would like for us to finish the job completely, but have serious doubts about the possibility. We have put ourselves in the same position in Iraq as the Soviets were in in Afghanistan. Iraq is beginning to look like Afghanistan. It is not being rebuilt, it is being destroyed, buy both us and the insurgents. one thing for certain, more Fallujahs will not help.

I am glad you found the links to the old posts useful. The first one also had a couple of informative links to peer into the mindset of the people we are dealing with.

As an old home boy from Delray, I understand that when you are up to your ass in alligators, it is hard to remember that your original intention was to drain the swamp ...

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Look for opportunities, mesquite, not obstacles; 'gator makes good steaks, fine soup, and sharp-lookin', real comfortable, long-wearin' boots Mr. Green

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InfraBlue wrote:

Would you go after the despotic pieces of filth that America supports, has supported a/o has installed in the world in pursuit of its own self-interests, Bill?

Ah, a little light in the gloom.

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mesquite wrote:

I would like for us to finish the job completely, but have serious doubts about the possibility. We have put ourselves in the same position in Iraq as the Soviets were in in Afghanistan. Iraq is beginning to look like Afghanistan. It is not being rebuilt, it is being destroyed, buy both us and the insurgents. one thing for certain, more Fallujahs will not help.

I'm not qualified to judge the work being done in Fallujah. But, one way or another, it had to be done.

mesquite wrote:

I am glad you found the links to the old posts useful. The first one also had a couple of informative links to peer into the mindset of the people we are dealing with.

Very interesting, thank you.

mesquite wrote:

As an old home boy from Delray, I understand that when you are up to your ass in alligators, it is hard to remember that your original intention was to drain the swamp ...

I don't think we're not so very far away in thought. I would agree with your Soviet /Afghanistan model, if you were talking about US/Afghanistan instead of Iraq. :wink: That, I suspect will take longer to fix... and I do expect Iraq to take a long time. But Iraq has the oil... and with it comes the wealth. With wealth comes the greed. And with the greed comes the purpose... the purpose that has nothing to do with worshipping invisible men. Nothing to do waiting for the next life for your reward.

They can call us the Christian Right, Jesus freaks or whatever they wish. But, the almighty dollar is what makes this country tick. Gordon Gecko said it well. I think its a large part of what propels people to want to join the global race... so they can enjoy the global economic opportunities.

Other than extremists, I don't believe the world's people don't hate Americans. Nor do I believe they hate America. Bush hatred seems pretty universal, but it's not always the most popular guy who gets the job done. He's got the kind of resolve, or he's stubbornly wrong if you prefer, but he is the kind of guy who can and will do this. With enough force, a square peg will go into a round hole. And it's high time the world did away with this brand of round hole anyway. I predict: 20 years from now Iraq will be the envy of people all over the Middle East.

The trick to winning Iraq IMO, is to stop hoping and start anticipating. Face it as a battle that must be won and therefore will be won. Doubting the ability of the United States Military to marginalize the resistance is foolish. The people of the United States spoke last Tuesday and the folks they spoke to will see this through. Believe it.

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Foxfyre wrote:

From everything I've read, seen, and been told, anyone who says the U.S. is using cluster bombs in Fallajah either has no idea what cluster bombs are or is intentionally lieing. While I have no doubt some innocents have been killed, the vast majority of civilians have fled the city and extreme measures are being used to protect the 1/3 or so who stayed. This would show Revel's 'eye witness account' to either be completely contrary to what other eye witnesses are saying or it is highly suspect.

Oh, the buzzing of the bees, and the cigarette trees
The soda-water fountain....

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Quote:

Face it as a battle that must be won and therefore will be won. Doubting the ability of the United States Military to marginalize the resistance is foolish.

This sounds like my grandfather when he'd talk about WWII and "the greatest generation". I think those men had a similar vision and that's why they were ultimately victorious.

Don't mind me -- he's been on my mind all day (I think because it's Veterans Day).

Anyway...you sound just like my grandpa, O'Bill Smile

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I'll take that as a compliment JW but I'm not worthy. I never served.

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not sure what the discussion is re cluster bombs, this is what I found: Joint Stand-off Weapon (JSOW,pronounced jay-sow). The missile is described by the Navy, its primary developer, and Raytheon Systems, its manufacturer, as a long-range glide bomb. Acting Pentagon spokesman, Navy Rear Admiral Crag Quigley primly calls it an "area munition," doggedly avoiding the scattershot reality conveyed by the term "cluster bomb." The 1,000 pound, 14-foot-long weapon carries 145 anti-armor and anti-personnel incendiary bomblets which disperse over an area that is approximately 100 feet long and 200 feet wide. In short, this weapon, which Quigley describes as a "long-range, precision-guided, stand-off weapon," rains down deadly bomblets on an area the size of a football field with six bombs falling in every 1,000 square feet. This is the description I found for cluster bombs used in Iraq.

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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

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