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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 10:18 am
McTag wrote:
The difference is of course, that these were writing in support of their own respective totalitarian states. American intelligentsia are writing to protest against theirs.


I don't understand why one should believe that the so-called intelligentsia is expected to be more reliable when criticising the government of a democratic state than when praising the government of a totalitarian state.

McTag wrote:
You will remember the numbers of writers and artists who left Germany before 1939- and not all of them were jewish.

Yes, I do remember that. I also remember that those that fled represented a small minority of their respective intellegentsias.

McTag wrote:
Bush is also driving people away, I have read, and not just those who say "If Bush gets in again, I'm leaving the country."
A few will leave, of course. But I bet our net immigration, always high (e.g., including net immigration of Scots, Irish, and English) will just get higher despite the few who leave. Why is that? That's because they expect to find better opportunities to build better lives here than elsewere.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 10:37 am
McTag

People are not, and I will say without reservation, going to leave the US as a result of this election. It is simply being said by people out of frustration.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 10:49 am
McTag wrote:
This is exactly counter to the reality perceived here, that American news is managed by the Right, and fed to the populace in shallow bite-sized chunks. It could hardly be otherwise, since TV depends on big business for advertising and sponsorship. We think, and I believe, that much of what is wrong is caused by, and inflamed by, Fox News.
I'm talking about news and current affairs of course.


I bet your perceptions are the consequences of your too heavy reliance on your equivalent of our neo-leftist news media: ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, The New York Times, The Boston Globe, The Los Angeles times, and 50% of FNN (i.e., Fox News Network) reporting. I think them all unreliable, because of their falsifications of the contents of Collin Powell's speech to the UN February 5, 2003, their falsifications of the contents of George Bush's speeches to our Congress, their falsifications of the 9-11 Commission Report, and their falsifications of the Duelfer Report. I know what these speeches and reports actually said and say because I actually read them.

I've already posted many examples of that here.

McTag wrote:
Read The Guardian (UK- online) for a week, and see a different picture of the world. Who knows, it may give new insights.
I bet it will! I bet that for the same reason I think our neo-leftist newsmedia unreliable. I bet I shall discover your neo-leftist newsmedia just as unreliable.

I am admittedly speculating that the neo-leftists are as unreliable as the communists, fascists, nazis, and shintoists before them, because they seek an equivalent objective: a world government with as much power as its neo-leftist leadership can garner. The most prescient example of how the power of such government will corrupt itself is George Orwell's "1984." The most practical example of how only a relatively little power has corrupted the UN is the Oil-For-Food/Saddam program.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 11:02 am
Some of us think our invasion of Afghanistan was a good thing.

Some of us think our invasion of Afghanistan was a bad thing.

Some of us think our invasion of Iraq was a good thing.

Some of us think our invasion of Iraq was a bad thing.

Some of us who once thought our invasion of Afghanistan was a bad thing, changed their minds when we invaded Iraq, and then thought our invasion of Afghanistan was a good thing, but our invasion of Iraq was a bad thing.

I am unable to understand why anyone who now thinks our invasion of Afghanistan was a good thing can now think our invasion of Iraq was a bad thing.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 11:07 am
ican711nm

Only for the satisfaction of my curiosity (and this only, because I studied history, communicational sciences and political sciences):

why is it that you call the 'Guardian' "neo-liberal"?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 11:19 am
Ican
As usual you see things bassackwards. Very few if any viewed the invasion in Afghanistan as being wrong or bad. However, as for Iraq the invasion is viewed by many as being unjustified and planned and conducted by a bunch of Katsonjamer [sp]kids. Rumsfeld and Bush are not qualified to be captains of the head.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 12:21 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
ican711nm Only for the satisfaction of my curiosity (and this only, because I studied history, communicational sciences and political sciences):why is it that you call the 'Guardian' "neo-liberal"?

I don't believe I did call it neo-liberal. I implied it neo-leftist. Perhaps that's the same thing.

Quote:
McTag: "Read The Guardian (UK- online) for a week, and see a different picture of the world. Who knows, it may give new insights."

Ican: "I bet it will! I bet that for the same reason I think our neo-leftist newsmedia unreliable. I bet I shall discover your neo-leftist newsmedia just as unreliable."


Why did I imply it neo-leftist? I drew that inference from a multiplicity of quotes from The Guardian provided by McTag and others. The Guardian has falsified what numerous documents (i.e., 9-11 Commission Report (9-11CR), Duelfer Report (DR), Powell's speech to the UN (PSUN), etc.) that I've read have said. Those falsifications are equivalent to the falsifications made by America's neo-left media.

Here's a few examples:
1. 9-11CR--no cooerative operational relationship has been falsely reported variously as no relationship, no cooperative relationship, no connection, no meaningful connection, no useful connection, etc.
2. DR--Saddam wanted to recreate Iraq's WMD capability--which was essentially destroyed in 1991--after sanctions were removed and Iraq's economy stabilized, but probably with a different mix of capabilities to that which previously existed. Saddam aspired to develop nuclear capability--in an incremental fashion, irrespective of international pressure and the resulting economic risks--but he intended to focus on ballistic missile and tactical chemical warfare (CW) capabilities. has been falsely reported as saying only that no WMD in Iraq since 1991.
3. PSUN--But what I want to bring to your attention today is the potentially much more sinister nexus between Iraq and the al-Qaida terrorist network, a nexus that combines classic terrorist organizations and modern methods of murder. Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network headed by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi an associate and collaborator of Usama bin Laden and his al-Qaida lieutenants. has been falsely reported as Powell claimed the existence of WMD in Iraq is the only reason for invading it.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 01:09 pm
au1929 wrote:
Ican As usual you see things bassackwards. Very few if any viewed the invasion in Afghanistan as being wrong or bad.


We remember it differently.

I remember that in the first months of the Afghanstan invasion the intense outcry by the neo-leftist media here against the Afghanistan invasion. They repeatedly and specifically warned of what they thought was certain failure of our invasion because the Russians had previously failed to conquer Afghanistan. Then they began to emphasize every blunder and for the most part ignored the successes in our invasion. But after we invaded Iraq, their position changed. The neo-leftist news media then began to falsely characterize our effort in Afghanistan. Among the falsifications being repeated to this day is the falsification that our invasion of Iraq took away from Afghanistan troops necessary for success in Afghanistan.

www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
Quote:
[chapt 10.2;after note 83;emphasis added by me]
In December 2001, Afghan forces, with limited U.S. support, engaged al Qaeda elements in a cave complex called Tora Bora. In March 2002, the largest engagement of the war was fought, in the mountainous Shah-i-Kot area south of Gardez, against a large force of al Qaeda jihadists. The three-week battle was substantially successful, and almost all remaining al Qaeda forces took refuge in Pakistan's equally mountainous and lightly governed frontier provinces. As of July 2004, Bin Ladin and Zawahiri are still believed to be at large.


We had substantially succeeded in Afganistan prior to our invasion of Iraq.

au1929 wrote:
However, as for Iraq the invasion is viewed by many as being unjustified and planned and conducted by a bunch of Katsonjamer [sp]kids. Rumsfeld and Bush are not qualified to be captains of the head.
unjustified Question Rolling Eyes not qualified Question Rolling Eyes Who better? John Kerry and team? Laughing
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 01:22 pm
ican711nm wrote:
I am unable to understand why anyone who now thinks our invasion of Afghanistan was a good thing can now think our invasion of Iraq was a bad thing.


I doubt that you ever will, since it has been explained enumerable times, but FWIW here is my reasoning.

We were attacked by Osama Bin Laden who had declared a holy war against the United States. Here is part of that declaration which provides some of the motivation (humiliation of Arabs and foreign forces in muslim holy lands) behind the declaration.

Osama bin Laden's Fatwah

Quote:
First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have formerly debated the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it.

The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, still they are helpless. Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, in excess of 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So now they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there.

The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al- Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said "As for the militant struggle, it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."


The Afghanistan government was an oppressive Islamic Fundamentalist theocracy that was openly providing sanctuary to the bin Laden network that moved freely throughout the country.

I had reservations about our chances of success in Afghanistan due the Soviet experience, but our strategy seemed sound, using minimal US ground forces while aiding the Northern Alliance with air support and military supplies.

The Afghan operation had broad support, both at home and abroad.

Then, before the situation in Afghanistan was even close to being resolved, GW began beating the war drums for Iraq. I remember those days very clearly as my 401K investments took a dump every time he opened his mouth.

The Iraq government as oppressive as it was, was a secular government that opposed Islamic fundamentalism. The dangers of invading Iraq were well known.

George H. W. Bush wrote:
In his memoir, "A World Transformed," written five years ago, George Bush Sr. wrote the following to explain why he didn't go after Saddam Hussein at the end of the Gulf War.

"Trying to eliminate Saddam...would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible.... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq.... There was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land."


GW said that he did not appeal to his father for advice on Iraq because "there's a higher father that I appeal to."

I am not impressed with his communication channels to the "higher father". The feedback so far has been abominable.

The invasion of Iraq, not only is diverting resources from the real terrorist threat, it is providing more motivation for bin Ladens followers.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 01:34 pm
Ican,

I don't think The Guardian is after world domination of the Left. At least if it is, I wasn't aware of that. :wink:

Publications like that have all their work cut out just giving a balance to what I see as a torrent of biased material from the Right- not so much in this country I think, but there's so much in yours that most seem to see it as normal.

You mentioned falsification of Secretary Powell's speech to the United Nations- wrong, these big papers usually print important speeches verbatim and in full. The analysis may differ from yours, I grant that.
But I remember the Powell presentation to the UN about Iraqi military capability was all false anyway. Written by the Brothers Grimm, a bizarre aberration.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 01:43 pm
Another chance to see this, from a Guardian leader, The Case For Kerry

No presidential election has mattered as overwhelmingly and urgently as this one. Four years ago, George Bush was beaten in the popular vote nationwide, yet captured the presidency because of electoral abuse in Florida and a shoddy legal judgment by the nation's highest court. Ever since, far from governing in the unifying manner that would have been appropriate in the circumstances (and that he briefly promised), he has done the opposite. But if Mr Bush has been partisan and confrontational at home - over the federal budget, education, race, civil liberty, the environment and a host of other social and cultural issues - he has been every bit as partisan and confrontational abroad. The attack of September 11 2001, an event of historic seriousness, created an unprecedented outpouring of solidarity worldwide. Three years later, much of that solidarity has been squandered. This has happened largely as a result of a war on Iraq that was not just ill-prepared and ill-executed in its own terms but that also exemplified the administration's aggressive contempt towards other nations, with disastrous consequences that continue to this day.

The Bush presidency has been not merely a crime but a mistake. Mr Bush has proved a terrifying failure in the world's most powerful office. He has made the world more angry, more dangerous and more divided - not less. This, above all, is why it matters to all of us, as it should to Americans, that John Kerry is elected on Tuesday. A safer world requires not just the example of American power but the power of American example. Mr Bush has done more to destroy America's good name in the world than any president in memory. Mr Kerry provides an opportunity to begin to repair the damage. It is as simple - and as important - as that.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,3604,1339597,00.html
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 07:00 pm
McTag wrote:
Another chance to see this, from a Guardian leader, The Case For Kerry

No presidential election has mattered as overwhelmingly and urgently as this one. Four years ago, George Bush was beaten in the popular vote nationwide, yet captured the presidency because of electoral abuse in Florida and a shoddy legal judgment by the nation's highest court. >>NEO-LEFTIST FALSIFICATION Ever since, far from governing in the unifying manner that would have been appropriate in the circumstances (and that he briefly promised), he has done the opposite.>>NEO-LEFTIST FALSIFICATION But if Mr Bush has been partisan and confrontational at home - over the federal budget, education, race, civil liberty, the environment and a host of other social and cultural issues >>NEO-LEFTIST FALSIFICATION - he has been every bit as partisan and confrontational abroad. >>NEO-LEFTIST FALSIFICATION The attack of September 11 2001, an event of historic seriousness, created an unprecedented outpouring of solidarity worldwide. Three years later, much of that solidarity has been squandered.>>NEO-LEFTIST FALSIFICATION This has happened largely as a result of a war on Iraq that was not just ill-prepared and ill-executed in its own terms >>NEO-LEFTIST FALSIFICATION but that also exemplified the administration's aggressive contempt towards other nations, with disastrous consequences that continue to this day.>>NEO-LEFTIST FALSIFICATION

The Bush presidency has been not merely a crime but a mistake.>>NEO-LEFTIST FALSIFICATION Mr Bush has proved a terrifying failure in the world's most powerful office. >>NEO-LEFTIST FALSIFICATION He has made the world more angry, more dangerous and more divided >>NEO-LEFTIST FALSIFICATION - not less. This, above all, is why it matters to all of us, as it should to Americans, that John Kerry is elected on Tuesday. A safer world requires not just the example of American power but the power of American example. Mr Bush has done more to destroy America's good name in the world than any president in memory. >>NEO-LEFTIST FALSIFICATION Mr Kerry provides an opportunity to begin to repair the damage. It is as simple - and as important - as that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,3604,1339597,00.html
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 08:15 pm
How come they only get to be neo_???
I guess they are wrong.

Bush has governed from the center taking his cue from the closeness of the election and the thinness of his mandate. He has reached out across the aisle to broker real connections between the parties and has achieved the respect due a peacemaker....... Is that how you see it?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2004 09:14 pm
McTag wrote:
Ican,

I don't think The Guardian is after world domination of the Left. At least if it is, I wasn't aware of that. :wink:

Publications like that have all their work cut out just giving a balance to what I see as a torrent of biased material from the Right- not so much in this country I think, but there's so much in yours that most seem to see it as normal.

You mentioned falsification of Secretary Powell's speech to the United Nations- wrong, these big papers usually print important speeches verbatim and in full. The analysis may differ from yours, I grant that.
But I remember the Powell presentation to the UN about Iraqi military capability was all false anyway. Written by the Brothers Grimm, a bizarre aberration.


"torrent of biased material from the Right" ???? In the US? Our MSM is overwhelmingly biased liberal. All the broadcast national news networks are, and all cable tv news was until Fox News Channel came along, presenting a more "fair and balanced" view -- which in contrast to every other newscast we see on tv appears to be conservative to some.

Most major newspapers in this country are liberal (New York Times, L.A. Times, Washington Post, etc.), and there are but a handful major metros that aren't (WSJ, Washington Times, ???).

Perhaps it would be helpful if you would advise which media outlets in the US constitute this "torrent"?

And Ican is right on when he speaks about the "falsification" of these speeches by our left-leaning media. It isn't a question of a different analysis, it is outright mischaracterization.

What was the point in showing that quote from the Guardian. We already know it to be a leftist rag; we don't need confirmation.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 12:40 am
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 07:55 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Whenever the president is criticized for something the troops did or did not do in Iraq, the troops aren't seeing that as the president's problem. They are seeing it as criticism of THEM. And they resent it mightily. That might be one reason they are voting overwhelmingly for President Bush.


If the troops see critism of the way the war has been managed as critisim of them, then that is a shame because it is not true.

If a company made a decision to raise the price of beef way past those of other local stores and the store begins to suffer the consequences of that decision by loss of profits in beef products; it is not the fault of the employees who work there.

Personally I don't believe you are telling the truth about what you are hearing and reading from military people. Care to offer up proof in some way to back up your statements?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 08:41 am
Joe writes
Quote:
He (Bush) has reached out across the aisle to broker real connections between the parties and has achieved the respect due a peacemaker....... Is that how you see it?


Actually early on he did. He met with Ted Kennedy and Tom Daschle and other Democrat icons of the Senate as well as Democrat leaders from the house. He sought to enlist cooperation for initiatives to move the country forward. They ate the food he offered, listened politely, assured him that the Democrats would do what they could to help move the country forward, and then they all did what they could to cut the legs out from under the president.

Being no patsy to anybody, you can hardly blame President Bush for not bothering to put a lot of additional effort into a lost cause.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 08:48 am
Revel writes
Quote:
If the troops see critism of the way the war has been managed as critisim of them, then that is a shame because it is not true.


It is the troops who are carrying out the war, Revel. The huge majority of them see all the things they are doing right and the good that is coming out of it. And they, unlike many from the left, know that no war in the history of the world has been prosecuted without mistakes, error in judgment, goof ups, and a good deal of FUBAR. Our troops see all the good that is being accomplished through their efforts and they do resent self-righteous, sanctimonius Americans, most who have never even been around the military, much less in it, who presume to know exactly what the military should be doing.

The ironic thing is that it is these same self righteous, sanctimonious, judgmental critics from the left who are so quick to say you can't criticize the NAACP without being racist or you can't criticize gay marriage without being homophobic or you can't criticize female management styles without being sexist, etc. etc. etc. But they think you can bash and condemn and damn the President and the war in Iraq without that reflecting on the morale and efficiency of the troops.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 08:53 am
[/QUOTE]The huge majority of them see all the things they are doing right and the good that is coming out of it. ......Our troops see all the good that is being accomplished through their efforts and they do resent self-righteous, sanctimonius Americans, most who have never even been around the military, much less in it, who presume to know exactly what the military should be doing.
Quote:


Where are the facts behind this statement? How can you speak for this "huge majority"?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 09:13 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Revel writes
Quote:
If the troops see critism of the way the war has been managed as critisim of them, then that is a shame because it is not true.


It is the troops who are carrying out the war, Revel. The huge majority of them see all the things they are doing right and the good that is coming out of it. And they, unlike many from the left, know that no war in the history of the world has been prosecuted without mistakes, error in judgment, goof ups, and a good deal of FUBAR. Our troops see all the good that is being accomplished through their efforts and they do resent self-righteous, sanctimonius Americans, most who have never even been around the military, much less in it, who presume to know exactly what the military should be doing.

The ironic thing is that it is these same self righteous, sanctimonious, judgmental critics from the left who are so quick to say you can't criticize the NAACP without being racist or you can't criticize gay marriage without being homophobic or you can't criticize female management styles without being sexist, etc. etc. etc. But they think you can bash and condemn and damn the President and the war in Iraq without that reflecting on the morale and efficiency of the troops.


Forgive me, foxfrye, but I think you are blowing a lot of hogwash. Where was all this outrage on the troop's behalf when the 'right' was criticizing the Kosovo war or the other wars under democrat presidents? The troops were the ones carrying out the wars then too.

Like I said offer up some proof about how you claim the troops feel about criticism of the way the Iraq war has been managed or any kind of criticism of the Iraq war. If you cannot offer up proof, then your claims are just your opinions of what you think the troops feel and nothing more than that
0 Replies
 
 

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