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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 10:52 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/25/international/middleeast/25bomb.html?oref=login&ei=5094&en=61cf6e1aa29b7871&hp=&ex=1098676800&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print&position=

Quote:
October 25, 2004
TRACKING THE WEAPONS
Huge Cache of Explosives Vanished From Site in Iraq
By JAMES GLANZ, WILLIAM J. BROAD and DAVID E. SANGER

his article was reported and written by James Glanz, William J. Broad and David E. Sanger.

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Oct. 24 - The Iraqi interim government has warned the United States and international nuclear inspectors that nearly 380 tons of powerful conventional explosives - used to demolish buildings, make missile warheads and detonate nuclear weapons - are missing from one of Iraq's most sensitive former military installations.

The huge facility, called Al Qaqaa, was supposed to be under American military control but is now a no man's land, still picked over by looters as recently as Sunday. United Nations weapons inspectors had monitored the explosives for many years, but White House and Pentagon officials acknowledge that the explosives vanished sometime after the American-led invasion last year.

The White House said President Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, was informed within the past month that the explosives were missing. It is unclear whether President Bush was informed. American officials have never publicly announced the disappearance, but beginning last week they answered questions about it posed by The New York Times and the CBS News program "60 Minutes."

Administration officials said Sunday that the Iraq Survey Group, the C.I.A. task force that searched for unconventional weapons, has been ordered to investigate the disappearance of the explosives.

American weapons experts say their immediate concern is that the explosives could be used in major bombing attacks against American or Iraqi forces: the explosives, mainly HMX and RDX, could produce bombs strong enough to shatter airplanes or tear apart buildings.

The bomb that brought down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988 used less than a pound of the same type of material, and larger amounts were apparently used in the bombing of a housing complex in November 2003 in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and the blasts in a Moscow apartment complex in September 1999 that killed nearly 300 people.

The explosives could also be used to trigger a nuclear weapon, which was why international nuclear inspectors had kept a watch on the material, and even sealed and locked some of it. The other components of an atom bomb - the design and the radioactive fuel - are more difficult to obtain.

"This is a high explosives risk, but not necessarily a proliferation risk," one senior Bush administration official said.

The International Atomic Energy Agency publicly warned about the danger of these explosives before the war, and after the invasion it specifically told United States officials about the need to keep the explosives secured, European diplomats said in interviews last week. Administration officials say they cannot explain why the explosives were not safeguarded, beyond the fact that the occupation force was overwhelmed by the amount of munitions they found throughout the country.

A Pentagon spokesman, Lawrence Di Rita, said Sunday evening that Saddam Hussein's government "stored weapons in mosques, schools, hospitals and countless other locations," and that the allied forces "have discovered and destroyed perhaps thousands of tons of ordnance of all types." A senior military official noted that HMX and RDX were "available around the world" and not on the nuclear nonproliferation list, even though they are used in the nuclear warheads of many nations.

The Qaqaa facility, about 30 miles south of Baghdad, was well known to American intelligence officials: Mr. Hussein made conventional warheads at the site, and the I.A.E.A. dismantled parts of his nuclear program there in the early 1990's after the Persian Gulf war in 1991. In the prelude to the 2003 invasion, Mr. Bush cited a number of other "dual use" items - including tubes that the administration contended could be converted to use for the nuclear program - as a justification for invading Iraq.

After the invasion, when widespread looting began in Iraq, the international weapons experts grew concerned that the Qaqaa stockpile could fall into unfriendly hands. In May, an internal I.A.E.A. memorandum warned that terrorists might be helping "themselves to the greatest explosives bonanza in history."

Earlier this month, in a letter to the I.A.E.A. in Vienna, a senior official from Iraq's Ministry of Science and Technology wrote that the stockpile disappeared after early April 2003 because of "the theft and looting of the governmental installations due to lack of security."

In an interview with The Times and "60 Minutes" in Baghdad, the minister of science and technology, Rashad M. Omar, confirmed the facts described in the letter. "Yes, they are missing," Dr. Omar said. "We don't know what happened." The I.A.E.A. says it also does not know, and has reported that machine tools that can be used for either nuclear or non-nuclear purposes have also been looted.

Dr. Omar said that after the American-led invasion, the sites containing the explosives were under the control of the Coalition Provisional Authority, an American-led entity that was the highest civilian authority in Iraq until it handed sovereignty of the country over to the interim government on June 28.

"After the collapse of the regime, our liberation, everything was under the coalition forces, under their control," Dr. Omar said. "So probably they can answer this question, what happened to the materials."

Officials in Washington said they had no answers to that question. One senior official noted that the Qaqaa complex where the explosives were stored was listed as a "medium priority" site on the Central Intelligence Agency's list of more than 500 sites that needed to be searched and secured during the invasion. "Should we have gone there? Definitely," said one senior administration official.

In the chaos that followed the invasion, however, many of those sites, even some considered a higher priority, were never secured.

A No Man's Land

Seeing the ruined bunkers at the vast Qaqaa complex today, it is hard to recall that just two years ago it was part of Saddam Hussein's secret military complex. The bunkers are so large that they are reminiscent of pyramids, though with rounded edges and the tops chopped off. Several are blackened and eviscerated as a result of American bombing. Smokestacks rise in the distance.

Today, Al Qaqaa has become a wasteland generally avoided even by the marines in charge of northern Babil Province. Headless bodies are found there. An ammunition dump has been looted, and on Sunday an Iraqi employee of The New York Times who made a furtive visit to the site saw looters tearing out metal fixtures. Bare pipes within the darkened interior of one of the buildings were a tangled mess, zigzagging along charred walls. Someone fired a shot, probably to frighten the visitors off.

"It's like Mars on Earth," said Maj. Dan Whisnant, an intelligence officer for the Second Battalion, 24th Marine Regiment. "It would take probably 10 battalions 10 years to clear that out."

Mr. Hussein's engineers acquired HMX and RDX when they embarked on a crash effort to build an atomic bomb in the late 1980's. It did not go smoothly.

In 1989, a huge blast ripped through Al Qaqaa, the boom reportedly heard hundreds of miles away. The explosion, it was later determined, occurred when a stockpile of the high explosives ignited.

After the Persian Gulf war in 1991, the United Nations discovered Iraq's clandestine effort and put the United Nations arms agency in charge of Al Qaqaa's huge stockpile. Weapon inspectors determined that Iraq had bought the explosives from France, China and Yugoslavia, a European diplomat said.

None of the explosives were destroyed, arms experts familiar with the decision recalled, because Iraq argued that it should be allowed to keep them for eventual use in mining and civilian construction. But Al Qaqaa was still under the authority of the Military Industrial Council, which ran Iraq's sensitive weapons programs and was led for a time by Hussein Kamel, Mr. Hussein's son-in-law. He defected to the West, then returned to Iraq and was immediately killed.

In 1996, the United Nations hauled away some of the HMX and used it to blow up Al Hakam, a vast Iraqi factory for making germ weapons.

The Qaqaa stockpile went unmonitored from late 1998, when United Nations inspectors left Iraq, to late 2002, when they came back. Upon their return, the inspectors discovered that about 35 tons of HMX were missing. The Iraqis said they had used the explosive mainly in civilian programs.

The remaining stockpile was no secret. Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei, the director general of the arms agency, frequently talked about it publicly as he investigated - in late 2002 and early 2003 - the Bush administration's claims that Iraq was secretly renewing its pursuit of nuclear arms. He ordered his weapons inspectors to conduct an inventory, and publicly reported their findings to the Security Council on Jan. 9, 2003.

During the following weeks, the I.A.E.A. repeatedly drew public attention to the explosives. In New York on Feb. 14, nine days after Secretary of State Colin L. Powell presented his arms case to the Security Council, Dr. ElBaradei reported that the agency had found no sign of new atom endeavors but "has continued to investigate the relocation and consumption of the high explosive HMX."

A European diplomat reported that Jacques Baute, head of the arms agency's Iraq nuclear inspection team, warned officials at the United States mission in Vienna about the danger of the nuclear sites and materials once under I.A.E.A. supervision, including Al Qaqaa.

But apparently, little was done. A senior Bush administration official said that during the initial race to Baghdad, American forces "went through the bunkers, but saw no materials bearing the I.A.E.A. seal." It is unclear whether troops ever returned.

By late 2003, diplomats said, arms agency experts had obtained commercial satellite photos of Al Qaqaa showing that two of roughly 10 bunkers that contained HMX appeared to have been leveled by titanic blasts, apparently during the war. They presumed some of the HMX had exploded, but that is unclear.

Other HMX bunkers were untouched. Some were damaged but not devastated. I.A.E.A. experts say they assume that just before the invasion the Iraqis followed their standard practice of moving crucial explosives out of buildings, so they would not be tempting targets. If so, the experts say, the Iraqi must have broken seals from the arms agency on bunker doors and moved most of the HMX to nearby fields, where it would have been lightly camouflaged - and ripe for looting.

But the Bush administration would not allow the agency back into the country to verify the status of the stockpile. In May 2004, Iraqi officials say in interviews, they warned L. Paul Bremer III, the American head of the occupation authority, that Al Qaqaa had probably been looted. It is unclear if that warning was passed anywhere. Efforts to reach Mr. Bremer by telephone were unsuccessful.

But by the spring of 2004, the Americans were preoccupied with the transfer of authority to Iraq, and the insurgency was gaining strength. "It's not an excuse," said one senior administration official. "But a lot of things went by the boards."

Early this month, Dr. ElBaradei put public pressure on the interim Iraqi government to start the process of accounting for nuclear-related materials still ostensibly under I.A.E.A. supervision, including the Qaqaa stockpile.

"Iraq is obliged," he wrote to the president of the Security Council on Oct. 1, "to declare semiannually changes that have occurred or are foreseen."

The agency, Dr. ElBaradei added pointedly, "has received no such notifications or declarations from any state since the agency's inspectors were withdrawn from Iraq in March 2003."

A Lost Stockpile

Two weeks ago, on Oct. 10, Dr. Mohammed J. Abbas of the Iraqi Ministry of Science and Technology wrote a letter to the I.A.E.A. to say the Qaqaa stockpile had been lost. He added that his ministry had judged that an "urgent updating of the registered materials is required."

A chart in his letter listed 341.7 metric tons, about 377 American tons, of HMX, RDX and PETN as missing.

The explosives missing from Al Qaqaa are the strongest and fastest in common use by militaries around the globe. The Iraqi letter identified the vanished stockpile as containing 194.7 metric tons of HMX, which stands for "high melting point explosive," 141.2 metric tons of RDX, which stands for "rapid detonation explosive," among other designations, and 5.8 metric tons of PETN, which stands for "pentaerythritol tetranitrate." The total is roughly 340 metric tons or nearly 380 American tons.

Five days later, on Oct. 15, European diplomats said, the arms agency wrote the United States mission in Vienna to forward the Iraqi letter and ask that the American authorities inform the international coalition in Iraq of the missing explosives.

Dr. ElBaradei, a European diplomat said, is "extremely concerned" about the potentially "devastating consequences" of the vanished stockpile.

Its fate remains unknown. Glenn Earhart, manager of an Army Corps of Engineers program in Huntsville, Ala., that is in charge of rounding up and destroying lost Iraqi munitions, said he and his colleagues knew nothing of the whereabouts of the Qaqaa stockpile.

Administration officials say Iraq was awash in munitions, including other stockpiles of exotic explosives.

"The only reason this stockpile was under seal," said one senior administration official, "is because it was located at Al Qaqaa," where nuclear work had gone on years ago.

As a measure of the size of the stockpile, one large truck can carry about 10 tons, meaning that the missing explosives could fill a fleet of almost 40 trucks.

By weight, these explosives pack far more destructive power than TNT, so armies often use them in shells, bombs, mines, mortars and many types of conventional ordinance.

"HMX and RDX have a lot of shattering power," said Dr. Van Romero, vice president for research at the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, or New Mexico Tech, which specializes in explosives.

"Getting a large amount is difficult," he added, because most nations carefully regulate who can buy such explosives, though civilian experts can sometimes get licenses to use them for demolition and mining.

An Immediate Danger

A special property of HMX and RDX lends them to smuggling and terrorism, experts said. While violently energetic when detonated, they are insensitive to shock and physical abuse during handling and transport because of their chemical stability. A hammer blow does nothing. It takes a detonator, like a blasting cap, to release the stored energy.

Experts said the insensitivity made them safer to transport than the millions of unexploded shells, mines and pieces of live ammunition that litter Iraq. And its benign appearance makes it easy to disguise as harmless goods, easily slipped across borders.

"The immediate danger" of the lost stockpile, said an expert who recently led a team that searched Iraq for deadly arms, "is its potential use with insurgents in very small and powerful explosive devices. The other danger is that it can easily move into the terrorist web across the Middle East."

More worrisome to the I.A.E.A. - and to some in Washington - is that HMX and RDX are used in standard nuclear weapons design. In a nuclear implosion weapon, the explosives crush a hollow sphere of uranium or plutonium into a critical mass, initiating the nuclear explosion.

A crude implosion device - like the one that the United States tested in 1945 in the New Mexican desert and then dropped on Nagasaki, Japan - needs about a ton of high explosive to crush the core and start the chain reaction.



From http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_10_24.php#003778

Quote:
It is apparently widely believed within the US government that those looted explosives are what in many, perhaps most, cases is being used in car bombs and suicide attacks against US troops. That is, according to TPM sources and sources quoted in this evening's Nelson Report, where the story first broke.

One administration official told Nelson, "This is the stuff the bad guys have been using to kill our troops, so you can't ignore the political implications of this, and you would be correct to suspect that politics, or the fear of politics, played a major role in delaying the release of this information."


Great job we're doing there.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 10:54 am
For those who are having a hard time visualizing this,

350 tons is over 700,000 POUNDS of high explosive that we have lost track of. A single pound of the stuff is enough to blow the sh*t out of a humvee or make an extremely effective suicide bomb.

The people running Iraq are f*cking inept.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 11:10 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
For those who are having a hard time visualizing this,

350 tons is over 700,000 POUNDS of high explosive that we have lost track of. A single pound of the stuff is enough to blow the sh*t out of a humvee or make an extremely effective suicide bomb.

The people running Iraq are f*cking inept.

Cycloptichorn


Boortz has it right...again.

THE MISSING EXPLOSIVES

You'll hear much in the news today about the International Atomic Energy Agency saying that about 300 tons of explosives have "gone missing" in Iraq. This, of course, is not good. Let me ask you this though. If you've already heard this story, tell me when you think these explosives disappeared. Last week? Last month? My guess is that you will believe that these explosives recently disappeared.

Well ... you may well have the story wrong. The IAEA says that they were monitoring the explosives prior to the war. Now they're gone. The IAEA doesn't know when they disappeared. They can't say that Saddam didn't remove them before the American invasion. They can't say that Saddam's soldiers didn't move them to another location after the invasion began. They just don't know.

The Kerry campaign will be sure to make a huge deal out of this today. They'll pin the disappearance squarely on President Bush. The facts don't support that, but what do the facts mean when you're trying to win an election.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 11:18 am
ANother crappy attempt at apology...

Tell me, why didn't the Bush admin know they were missing? Even if Saddam moved them, I'm sure someone went there and said 'yeah, they're gone, we don't need to defend it.' But that isn't the case at all.

Your theory holds absolutely zero water in reality...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 01:04 pm
I bet the Australians won't join in condemnation of the US on this one:
Quote:
Calls for inquiry over missing ammo

THE disappearance of defence department stockpiles of explosives and ammunition constituted a clear threat to the nation, Australian Democrats leader Andrew Bartlett warned today.

Senator Bartlett said the Democrats wanted an open and wide ranging inquiry.
Last week, more than 3.5 tonnes of ammonium nitrate, a common bomb ingredient, was found to be missing from an Adelaide warehouse.

And Defence Minister Robert Hill has confirmed that explosives, hand grenades and thousands of rounds of ammunition have been stolen from the defence department since 2001.

"We have the absurd situation of tonnes of ammonium nitrate just vanishing and in the last few years an unknown amount of ammunition, hand grenades and explosives disappearing from the defence department," Senator Bartlett said in Brisbane today.


"We are just astonished that this sort of thing can happen without a massive embarrassment on the part of the government."

Senator Bartlett said the government should have to justify why it would not hold an inquiry.

"We are supposed to be battling terrorism overseas yet we've got an unknown amount of weaponry and explosives just casually vanishing and disappearing in the middle of Australia.

"It's a ridiculous situation and that's where the real threat is to Australians."

He said that despite ammonium nitrate being identified as a common bomb ingredient, there were still no proper national controls on it.

"It's been up to distributors to say they are not going to sell it any more when the government could have acted ages ago," the senator said.

"To have tonnes of it disappear is farcical."
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,9251171%5E1702,00.html


Stuff like this happens and no doubt heads will roll in the US military in Iraq and in Australia. Does anyone here think Bush should be micromanaging the military in Iraq? Does anyone think a President Kerry will do that?

According to the NY Times artcile, the US forces were overwhelmed by the amount of munitions they found when they first invaded. It is uncertain when the large stockpile mentioned here first turned up missing.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 01:08 pm
Quote:
Does anyone here think Bush should be micromanaging the military in Iraq? Does anyone think a President Kerry will do that?


Don't blame Bush; blame his team, whose job IS to micromanage the military in Iraq...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 01:11 pm
The administration itself said that the weapons went missing after the invasion.

They should micromanage the war if they start it. Geesh, that only makes sense.

Also if they were less concerned about the oil wells they would have enough troops to watch the weapons.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/25/international/middleeast/25bomb.html?oref=login&th

Quote:
The huge facility, called Al Qaqaa, was supposed to be under American military control but is now a no man's land, still picked over by looters as recently as Sunday. United Nations weapons inspectors had monitored the explosives for many years, but White House and Pentagon officials acknowledge that the explosives vanished sometime after the American-led invasion last year.[/[/b]QUOTE]
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 01:15 pm
It was a screw up if the dump wasn't guarded. It has also not been confirmed that the dump was still there at the time we invaded. Is there any evidence anywhere that this stuff was seen at the time we went in? There is a huge amount of evidence that Saddam was trucking stuff out of the country like crazy just before the invasion. There is no proof, to the best of my knowledge, that the dump was there at the time we took control.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 01:22 pm
<scratches head>

Let's look at the quote right above:

United Nations weapons inspectors had monitored the explosives for many years, but White House and Pentagon officials acknowledge that the explosives vanished sometime after the American-led invasion last year.

White house and pentagon officials don't count as evidence to you?

You guys are reaching.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 01:29 pm
WHich white house and pentagon officials? The same ones that get lambasted when used as a source of information boosting the conservative issues?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 01:32 pm
oopps. sorry cyclo. i posted a new topic about the missing materials before i got to this thread. looks like it's going here, so i'll take it down unless people want to move to it's own thread.

maybe spme people are right. "this isn't vietnam".

vietnam seems to have been well organized next to this cluster-shuck.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 01:34 pm
Seeing as those are the ones continually defended by the right, yes.

If you are implying that their opinions are conviently used as positive when it's an anti-Bush position, you do have a point; except for the fact that if they are NOT telling the truth, it doesn't make the situation any better - we still wouldn't know what happened to the explosives.



It seems as if we have known that the explosives were missing for at least several months, if not a year, and nothing was said about it...

Abu Ghraib
Tons of Missing Explosives
Zero answers or disclosure from the Admin.

Do you see a pattern here? What else has gone on in Iraq that we haven't been told?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 03:21 pm
Foxfrye, where is this proof that saddam moved weapons out of the country before the invasion?
0 Replies
 
rlion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 03:27 pm
well... seems, here is the real politics Sad Edit: Moderator: Do not post your link
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 03:31 pm
Revel writes
Quote:
Foxfrye, where is this proof that saddam moved weapons out of the country before the invasion?


It has been referenced in numerous places by numerous members on numerous threads Revel including this one, most recently in the Duelfer report posted most recently by Ican.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 06:35 pm
Iraq was invaded in March 2003.

Quote:
Earlier this month, in a letter to the I.A.E.A. in Vienna, a senior official from Iraq's Ministry of Science and Technology wrote that the stockpile disappeared after early April 2003 because of "the theft and looting of the governmental installations due to lack of security."

...

By late 2003, diplomats said, arms agency experts had obtained commercial satellite photos of Al Qaqaa showing that two of roughly 10 bunkers that contained HMX appeared to have been leveled by titanic blasts, apparently during the war. They presumed some of the HMX had exploded, but that is unclear.

...

In May 2004, Iraqi officials say in interviews, they warned L. Paul Bremer III, the American head of the occupation authority, that Al Qaqaa had probably been looted.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 06:48 pm
revel wrote:
Foxfrye, where is this proof that saddam moved weapons out of the country before the invasion?


A long truck convoy was spotted moving from Iraq into Syria just prior to the invasion of Iraq. The contents of those trucks is not known. Do you care to speculate on what those contents were?
0 Replies
 
angie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 06:54 pm
2,375 posts to this thread and I would bet that NOT ONE PERSON has changed his/her mind re Bush or Kerry.

Waste of time, folks. I have not seen this country so divided since Vietnam, so entrenched, so bitter. Whoever wins, there will be no "getting behind" our president. Bush the "uniter" has really torn us apart, and this before anything else, will be his legacy.

So, post away if you like, if it makes you feel good, but it will not make any difference. This election is now clearly in the hands of voters, along with those determined to find a way to falsify ballots of course.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 07:28 pm
angie wrote:
Whoever wins, there will be no "getting behind" our president. Bush the "uniter" has really torn us apart, and this before anything else, will be his legacy.
I for one think it will be the legacy of the current Democrats. It is they who have "really torn us apart." It is they who have substituted slander for honest search and honest argument in striving for mutually acceptable solutions to our many problems.

angie wrote:
So, post away if you like, if it makes you feel good, but it will not make any difference. This election is now clearly in the hands of voters, along with those determined to find a way to falsify ballots of course.
Why then did you submit this post if you are so sure "it will not make any difference?"
0 Replies
 
angie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 10:07 pm
ican: Of course I completely disagree with your assessment of blame, as you do mine. Think about how united this country was in the immediate aftermath of 911. Had Bush not chosen to execute a pre-911 agenda-driven, unjustified, unilateral, ill-planned and obviously counter-productive invasion of Iraq, we might still be truly united behind him in a "sincere" attempt to fight real terrorism. But, as I observed, I am sure that neither of us will change our opinions regarding that issue or that man.

I participate here at A2K because I enjoy the dialogue. There are actually many meaningful informative interchanges. I do not believe a post has to be capable of altering someone's political position to be valid or worthwhile.
0 Replies
 
 

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