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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 11:00 pm
ican711nm wrote:

Yes folks, this program was created by a UN resolution. Yes folks, those clearly responsible for paying these reparations are the governments that subsidized Saddam's crimes for which reparations are due. Yes, folks, that's almost totally France, Germany and Russia. Sad


Not sure about that last bit, Ican. When Saddam's armies were fighting Iran, one of his main backers was the USA. Remember that picture we've seen, of Mr Rumsfeld chummying up to him and bringing him presents. (From Reagan? Bush 1? can't remember.)

One thing's for sure, none of the major countries has a clean bill of health when it comes to Iraq, and most multinational companies seem to have been complicit in helping Saddam circumvent UN sanctions intended to enfeeble and control him.

But hey, let's bomb them. That plays better on Fox News.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 01:09 am
McTag wrote:

But hey, let's bomb them. That plays better on Fox News.


Since many of l the American oil companies got a lot of money from Saddam as well ...
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 01:52 am
ican wrote:
Do you think the conjectures of the 9-11 Commission Report (plus one from Colin Powell's February 2003 speech to the UN) do not constitute evidence?


Conjectures are not evidence, ican. What's more, the Commission itself explicitly states in its report, and I quote verbatim:

Quote:
"But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States." (2.5 paragraph 13 9/11 Commission Report)


The commission isn't only refereing to Saddam, it is referring to all of Iraq when it explicitly states that they have seen no such evidence.

ican wrote:
Mere inferences?


Inferences are not evidence, ican.

Your inferences are not only illogical, they are irrational given the unreliability of the source reports and the commission's selfsame conclusions.

A conjecture by its very definition is inference from defective or presumptive evidence; a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork; and/or a proposition (as in mathematics) before it has been proved or disproved. A conjecture is not evidence, let alone fact, ican.

You are putting up Congress' conjectures and ican's inferences based on self-admittedly unreliable reports--a source report is even titled Special Analysis: Iraq's Inconclusive Ties to Al-Qaida (emphasis mine)--as evidence ican, and this "evidence," mere conjectures, was used as a pretext for war.

About your demand for proof of a negative, you can offer your red herring to someone else, I'm not interested in that chase; I've thoroughly made my point here.

You have yet to produce evidence--not conjecture, not inferences, ican, evidence, something that furnishes proof--about a collaborative link between Saddam and al Qaeda.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 01:56 am
Walter wrote:
Since many of l the American oil companies got a lot of money from Saddam as well ...


They profited in the oil for food scam. According to a report prepared by the chief arms inspector for the Central Intelligence Agency, Chevron, Mobil, Texaco and Bay Oil - and three individuals including Oscar S. Wyatt Jr. of Houston were given vouchers and got 111 million barrels of oil between them from 1996 to 2003. The vouchers allowed them to profit by selling the oil or the right to trade it.

United States sanctions on Iraq had prohibited American companies and individuals from interacting directly with Iraqi officials. But the oil dealers were permitted to get special authorization from the federal government to bid on United Nations contracts under the oil-for-food program. He said the agency was "actively investigating" whether the American entities and people circumvented that requirement.

Among American companies and citizens, Mr. Wyatt was by far the largest recipient of oil allocations, as recorded on the secret list maintained by the Iraqi government, the report says.

from:
The New York Times October 9, 2004 Report Cites U.S. Profits in Sale of Iraqi Oil Under Hussein By JUDITH MILLER and ERIC LIPTON
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 02:03 am
Well, since no American names have been officially published due to public law ...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 02:03 am
.... it's very easy to bang on the others!
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 02:12 am
Oscar S. Wyatt Jr's name was to be kept confidential in a secret file, but it was included in a copy of a report that was shown to the Times' reporters by the CIA.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 02:57 am
Foxfyre wrote:
To AU and DTOM, I try not to label (or psychoanalyze or characterize) people any differently than they characterize themselves.


wra-ong, fox. i have never once on this board "characterized myself as a liberal". in, fact, the very first sentence i posted on a2k was something to the effect of, "i'm not particulary liberal". it is the conservative extremists that call me that. here and in everyday life. the liberals find me to be conservative. guess what? by the definitions used by both parties, i would be a moderate.

if you ( and i'm really not being snotty here) judged me, or better yet talked with me, on nearly anything other than the iraq conflict, you might find me to be, if not "conservative", at the very least, pragmatic.

Foxfyre wrote:
is liberals who push agendas like reparation. Smile


"liberals" applied the way you have used it here isn't a characterization?
:wink:
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 07:25 am
From the (conservative) British Sunday paper, The Sunday Times:


Quote:
Cheney firm uses UK to dodge Iran ban
link to full article
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 08:06 am
DTOM write:
Quote:
"liberals" applied the way you have used it here isn't a characterization?


Of course it's a characterization to save a whole lot of words. If we have to define 'liberalism' or 'conservatism' every time we allude to it, it would get tedious. The terms of themselves are neither positive or negative, but there are particular ideologies assigned to both.

I don't assign that ideology to you, DTOM, or anybody else on A2K; however, you will have to admit that those who oppose the war in Iraq are far more likely to be liberal than they are likely to be conservative. It's sort of a 'if the shoe fits' thing. Even I can be 'liberal' on a single issue and in fact am 'liberal' on some issues.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 08:19 am
Foxfyre wrote:
however, you will have to admit that those who oppose the war in Iraq are far more likely to be liberal than they are likely to be conservative. It's sort of a 'if the shoe fits' thing. Even I can be 'liberal' on a single issue and in fact am 'liberal' on some issues.


The biggest of your allies, Foxfyre, would be called by some "communistic" :wink:
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 08:37 am
Foxfire wrote:
Quote:
To AU and DTOM, I try not to label (or psychoanalyze or characterize) people any differently than they characterize themselves


Psychoanalyze? Is there a psychoanalyst in the room?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 09:01 am
Lola wrote:

Psychoanalyze? Is there a psychoanalyst in the room?


Just gone:

http://www.arzt-kontakt.de/Images/Psychoanalyse-evk-Bergisch-Gladbach.JPG
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 09:05 am
McTag wrote:
Not sure about that last bit, Ican. When Saddam's armies were fighting Iran, one of his main backers was the USA. ... One thing's for sure, none of the major countries has a clean bill of health when it comes to Iraq, and most multinational companies seem to have been complicit in helping Saddam circumvent UN sanctions intended to enfeeble and control him.


McTag, I'm not sure I can handle this! I agree with you, again! Shocked You are right! I narrowed my perspective to the years since 1991. If I include the 1980s, I am compelled to acknowledge that the Reagan administration did make the mistake of aiding and abetting Saddam in his war with Iran.

Well, regardless of who contributed how much when to the evolution of this Osama-Saddam Frankenstein monster, I think we are obligated to pay the price now required to kill it before it evolves beyond our ability to kill it without compelling our grandchildren to participate in its killing too.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 10:41 am
InfraBlue wrote:
ican wrote:
Do you think the conjectures of the 9-11 Commission Report (plus one from Colin Powell's February 2003 speech to the UN) do not constitute evidence?


Conjectures are not evidence, ican. What's more, the Commission itself explicitly states in its report, and I quote verbatim:

Quote:
"But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States." (2.5 paragraph 13 9/11 Commission Report)


So there we both are basing our arguments on the conjectures of others. One of your conjectures is: Those contacts that do not develop into a collaborative operational relationship are contacts that do not develop into any cooperative relationships. One of my conjectures is: The harboring of a group by another group does not constitute a collaborative operational relationship, but it does constitute a cooperative relationship.

Another of your conjectures is: The statement to date we have seen no evidence is equivalent to there is no evidence. Another of my conjectures is: The statement to date we have seen no evidence is equivalent to we don't know whether or not the evidence exists.

I suspect there is no way to reconcile our differing conjectures. All we can do is admit to each other they are conjectures.

InfraBlue wrote:
ican wrote:
Mere inferences?


Inferences are not evidence, ican.


I think you are confusing two terms: evidence and proof. I am not now nor have I been posting here what I consider to be proof. However, I do consider it evidence. Evidence ranges from unconvincing to convincing. Given enough convincing evidence, rational individuals will judge it to probably be proof.

Inferences are judged evidence in a court room when the implicant of the inference is judged to be true and the consequent of that implicant is judged to truly follow from the truth of that implicant. The jury decides what actually constitues proof. The same is true in philosophy, economics, aviation, science, engineering, medicine, and politics.

When the Japanese launched their unprovoked, decade plus invasion of China in 1931, we had no proof they would invade Pearl Harbor 10 years later, but there was evidence other victims including us would follow. When the Germans launched their unprovoked invasion of Poland in 1939, we had no proof they would declare war on us in 1942, but there was evidence other victims including us would follow. Likewise when Osama declared war on the US in his 1996 and 1998 fatwas, we had no proof they would attack the WTC twice, but there was evidence other victims including us would follow.

I consider the following sources of conjectures/allegations to be more expert than my opinion, your opinion, and news media opinion:
Osama's 1996 fatwa;
Osama's 1998 fatwa;
News reported 1993 attack on the WTC;
News reported 2001 attack on the WTC;
Powell's 2003 speech to the UN;
News reported Bush's 2003 invasion of Iraq;
NBC reported in 2004 Bush failure in 2002 to destroy al Qaeda camp in Iraq;
News reported post invasion distruction of al Qaeda camps in Iraq;
The 9-11 Commission's 2004 Report;
Duelfer's 2004 Report.

What are your sources? Please not your opinions, just your sources.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 11:05 am
Quote:
Another of my conjectures is: The statement to date we have seen no evidence is equivalent to we don't know whether or not the evidence exists..



If three years from now we still have no evidence are you and others like you still going to be saying we just haven't found it yet?

This subject and others are becoming so tiresome and dull. Some people remind me of that Korean soldier on Giligan's Island.

I was browsing throught the internet and I found a very interesting article by John Dean. After reading it I came away with one conclusion. The president lied and then hung the intellegence agencies out to dry to cover his tracks.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20030606.html

Quote:
Missing Weapons Of Mass Destruction:
Is Lying About The Reason For War An Impeachable Offense?
By JOHN W. DEAN
----
Friday, Jun. 06, 2003

President George W. Bush has got a very serious problem. Before asking Congress for a Joint Resolution authorizing the use of American military forces in Iraq, he made a number of unequivocal statements about the reason the United States needed to pursue the most radical actions any nation can undertake - acts of war against another nation.

Now it is clear that many of his statements appear to be false. In the past, Bush's White House has been very good at sweeping ugly issues like this under the carpet, and out of sight. But it is not clear that they will be able to make the question of what happened to Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) go away - unless, perhaps, they start another war.

That seems unlikely. Until the questions surrounding the Iraqi war are answered, Congress and the public may strongly resist more of President Bush's warmaking.

Presidential statements, particularly on matters of national security, are held to an expectation of the highest standard of truthfulness. A president cannot stretch, twist or distort facts and get away with it. President Lyndon Johnson's distortions of the truth about Vietnam forced him to stand down from reelection. President Richard Nixon's false statements about Watergate forced his resignation.

Frankly, I hope the WMDs are found, for it will end the matter. Clearly, the story of the missing WMDs is far from over. And it is too early, of course, to draw conclusions. But it is not too early to explore the relevant issues.

President Bush's Statements On Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Readers may not recall exactly what President Bush said about weapons of mass destruction; I certainly didn't. Thus, I have compiled these statements below. In reviewing them, I saw that he had, indeed, been as explicit and declarative as I had recalled.

Bush's statements, in chronological order, were:

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."

United Nations Address
September 12, 2002

"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."

Radio Address
October 5, 2002

"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."

"We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."

"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."

Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
October 7, 2002

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."

State of the Union Address
January 28, 2003

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

Address to the Nation
March 17, 2003

Should The President Get The Benefit Of The Doubt?

When these statements were made, Bush's let-me-mince-no-words posture was convincing to many Americans. Yet much of the rest of the world, and many other Americans, doubted them.

As Bush's veracity was being debated at the United Nations, it was also being debated on campuses - including those where I happened to be lecturing at the time.

On several occasions, students asked me the following question: Should they believe the President of the United States? My answer was that they should give the President the benefit of the doubt, for several reasons deriving from the usual procedures that have operated in every modern White House and that, I assumed, had to be operating in the Bush White House, too.

First, I assured the students that these statements had all been carefully considered and crafted. Presidential statements are the result of a process, not a moment's thought. White House speechwriters process raw information, and their statements are passed on to senior aides who have both substantive knowledge and political insights. And this all occurs before the statement ever reaches the President for his own review and possible revision.

Second, I explained that - at least in every White House and administration with which I was familiar, from Truman to Clinton - statements with national security implications were the most carefully considered of all. The White House is aware that, in making these statements, the President is speaking not only to the nation, but also to the world.

Third, I pointed out to the students, these statements are typically corrected rapidly if they are later found to be false. And in this case, far from backpedaling from the President's more extreme claims, Bush's press secretary, Ari Fleischer had actually, at times, been even more emphatic than the President had. For example, on January 9, 2003, Fleischer stated, during his press briefing, "We know for a fact that there are weapons there."

In addition, others in the Administration were similarly quick to back the President up, in some cases with even more unequivocal statements. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld repeatedly claimed that Saddam had WMDs - and even went so far as to claim he knew "where they are; they're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."

Finally, I explained to the students that the political risk was so great that, to me, it was inconceivable that Bush would make these statements if he didn't have damn solid intelligence to back him up. Presidents do not stick their necks out only to have them chopped off by political opponents on an issue as important as this, and if there was any doubt, I suggested, Bush's political advisers would be telling him to hedge. Rather than stating a matter as fact, he would be say: "I have been advised," or "Our intelligence reports strongly suggest," or some such similar hedge. But Bush had not done so.

So what are we now to conclude if Bush's statements are found, indeed, to be as grossly inaccurate as they currently appear to have been?

After all, no weapons of mass destruction have been found, and given Bush's statements, they should not have been very hard to find - for they existed in large quantities, "thousands of tons" of chemical weapons alone. Moreover, according to the statements, telltale facilities, groups of scientists who could testify, and production equipment also existed.

So where is all that? And how can we reconcile the White House's unequivocal statements with the fact that they may not exist?

There are two main possibilities. One that something is seriously wrong within the Bush White House's national security operations. That seems difficult to believe. The other is that the President has deliberately misled the nation, and the world.

A Desperate Search For WMDs Has So Far Yielded Little, If Any, Fruit

Even before formally declaring war against Saddam Hussein's Iraq, the President had dispatched American military special forces into Iraq to search for weapons of mass destruction, which he knew would provide the primary justification for Operation Freedom. None were found.

Throughout Operation Freedom's penetration of Iraq and drive toward Baghdad, the search for WMDs continued. None were found.

As the coalition forces gained control of Iraqi cities and countryside, special search teams were dispatched to look for WMDs. None were found.

During the past two and a half months, according to reliable news reports, military patrols have visited over 300 suspected WMD sites throughout Iraq. None of the prohibited weapons were found there.

British and American Press Reaction to the Missing WMDs

British Prime Minister Tony Blair is also under serious attack in England, which he dragged into the war unwillingly, based on the missing WMDs. In Britain, the missing WMDs are being treated as scandalous; so far, the reaction in the U.S. has been milder.

New York Times columnist, Paul Krugman, has taken Bush sharply to task, asserting that it is "long past time for this administration to be held accountable." "The public was told that Saddam posed an imminent threat," Krugman argued. "If that claim was fraudulent," he continued, "the selling of the war is arguably the worst scandal in American political history - worse than Watergate, worse than Iran-contra." But most media outlets have reserved judgment as the search for WMDs in Iraq continues.

Still, signs do not look good. Last week, the Pentagon announced it was shifting its search from looking for WMD sites, to looking for people who can provide leads as to where the missing WMDs might be.

Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security John Bolton, while offering no new evidence, assured Congress that WMDs will indeed be found. And he advised that a new unit called the Iraq Survey Group, composed of some 1400 experts and technicians from around the world, is being deployed to assist in the searching.

But, as Time magazine reported, the leads are running out. According to Time, the Marine general in charge explained that "[w]e've been to virtually every ammunition supply point between the Kuwaiti border and Baghdad," and remarked flatly, "They're simply not there."

Perhaps most troubling, the President has failed to provide any explanation of how he could have made his very specific statements, yet now be unable to back them up with supporting evidence. Was there an Iraqi informant thought to be reliable, who turned out not to be? Were satellite photos innocently, if negligently misinterpreted? Or was his evidence not as solid as he led the world to believe?

The absence of any explanation for the gap between the statements and reality only increases the sense that the President's misstatements may actually have been intentional lies.

Investigating The Iraqi War Intelligence Reports

Even now, while the jury is still out as to whether intentional misconduct occurred, the President has a serious credibility problem. Newsweek magazine posed the key questions: "If America has entered a new age of pre-emption --when it must strike first because it cannot afford to find out later if terrorists possess nuclear or biological weapons--exact intelligence is critical. How will the United States take out a mad despot or a nuclear bomb hidden in a cave if the CIA can't say for sure where they are? And how will Bush be able to maintain support at home and abroad?"

In an apparent attempt to bolster the President's credibility, and his own, Secretary Rumsfeld himself has now called for a Defense Department investigation into what went wrong with the pre-war intelligence. New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd finds this effort about on par with O. J.'s looking for his wife's killer. But there may be a difference: Unless the members of Administration can find someone else to blame - informants, surveillance technology, lower-level personnel, you name it - they may not escape fault themselves.

Congressional committees are also looking into the pre-war intelligence collection and evaluation. Senator John Warner (R-VA), chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said his committee and the Senate Intelligence Committee would jointly investigate the situation. And the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence plans an investigation.

These investigations are certainly appropriate, for there is potent evidence of either a colossal intelligence failure or misconduct - and either would be a serious problem. When the best case scenario seems to be mere incompetence, investigations certainly need to be made.

Senator Bob Graham - a former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee - told CNN's Aaron Brown, that while he still hopes they find WMDs or at least evidence thereof, he has also contemplated three other possible alternative scenarios:

One is that [the WMDs] were spirited out of Iraq, which maybe is the worst of all possibilities, because now the very thing that we were trying to avoid, proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, could be in the hands of dozens of groups. Second, that we had bad intelligence. Or third, that the intelligence was satisfactory but that it was manipulated, so as just to present to the American people and to the world those things that made the case for the necessity of war against Iraq.

Senator Graham seems to believe there is a serious chance that it is the final scenario that reflects reality. Indeed, Graham told CNN "there's been a pattern of manipulation by this administration."

Graham has good reason to complain. According to the New York Times, he was one of the few members of the Senate who saw the national intelligence estimate that was the basis for Bush's decisions. After reviewing it, Senator Graham requested that the Bush Administration declassify the information before the Senate voted on the Administration's resolution requesting use of the military in Iraq.

But rather than do so, CIA Director Tenet merely sent Graham a letter discussing the findings. Graham then complained that Tenet's letter only addressed "findings that supported the administration's position on Iraq," and ignored information that raised questions about intelligence. In short, Graham suggested that the Administration, by cherrypicking only evidence to its own liking, had manipulated the information to support its conclusion.

Recent statements by one of the high-level officials privy to the decisionmaking process that lead to the Iraqi war also strongly suggests manipulation, if not misuse of the intelligence agencies. Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, during an interview with Sam Tannenhaus of Vanity Fair magazine, said: "The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S. government bureaucracy we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on which was weapons of mass destruction as the core reason." More recently, Wolfowitz added what most have believed all along, that the reason we went after Iraq is that "[t]he country swims on a sea of oil."

Worse than Watergate? A Potential Huge Scandal If WMDs Are Still Missing

Krugman is right to suggest a possible comparison to Watergate. In the three decades since Watergate, this is the first potential scandal I have seen that could make Watergate pale by comparison. If the Bush Administration intentionally manipulated or misrepresented intelligence to get Congress to authorize, and the public to support, military action to take control of Iraq, then that would be a monstrous misdeed.

As I remarked in an earlier column, this Administration may be due for a scandal. While Bush narrowly escaped being dragged into Enron, it was not, in any event, his doing. But the war in Iraq is all Bush's doing, and it is appropriate that he be held accountable.

To put it bluntly, if Bush has taken Congress and the nation into war based on bogus information, he is cooked. Manipulation or deliberate misuse of national security intelligence data, if proven, could be "a high crime" under the Constitution's impeachment clause. It would also be a violation of federal criminal law, including the broad federal anti-conspiracy statute, which renders it a felony "to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose."

It's important to recall that when Richard Nixon resigned, he was about to be impeached by the House of Representatives for misusing the CIA and FBI. After Watergate, all presidents are on notice that manipulating or misusing any agency of the executive branch improperly is a serious abuse of presidential power.

Nixon claimed that his misuses of the federal agencies for his political purposes were in the interest of national security. The same kind of thinking might lead a President to manipulate and misuse national security agencies or their intelligence to create a phony reason to lead the nation into a politically desirable war. Let us hope that is not the case.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 12:45 pm
revel wrote:
Quote:
Another of my conjectures is: The statement to date we have seen no evidence is equivalent to we don't know whether or not the evidence exists..


If three years from now we still have no evidence are you and others like you still going to be saying we just haven't found it yet?


Your statement has nothing to do with my conjecture. We have found the evidence!

I have presented here what I judge to be convincing evidence that Afghanistan harbored al Qaeda before we invaded it.

I have presented here what I judge to be convincing evidence that Iraq harbored al Qaeda before we invaded it.

I have presented here what I judge to be convincing evidence that harbored al Qaeda have murdered thousands of innocent people in our country and elsewhere, and are planning to continue to do so for as long as they survive.

I have presented here what I judge to be convincing evidence that those who knowingly harbor al Qaeda, but do not participate in the actual planning and execution of al Qaeda's murders, are nontheless also quilty of al Qaeda's murders.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 12:53 pm
BY THE WAY

JOHN W. DEAN'S Friday, Jun. 06, 2003 is demonstatively irrelevant.

What is demonstratively relevant is Charles Duelfer's Reort posted here again for your convenience.

Carles Duelfer's Report, 30 September 2004

www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/

Key Findings

Regime Strategic Intent - Key Findings

Regime Finance and Procurement - Key Findings

Delivery Systems - Key Findings

Nuclear - Key Findings

Chemical - Key Findings

Biological - Key Findings


Quote:
(transcribed from pdf version of Duelfer Report)

Regime Strategic Intent

Key Findings

Saddam Husayn so dominated the Iraqi Regime that its strategic intent was his alone. He wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction (WMD) when sanctions were lifted.

pt1- Saddam totally dominated the Regime's strategic decision making. He initiated most of the strategic thinking upon which decisions were made, whether in matters of war and peace (such as invading Kuwait), maintaining WMD as a national strategic goal, or on how Iraq was to position itself in the international community. Loyal dissent was discouraged and constructive variations to the implementation of his wishes on strategic issues were rare. Saddam was the Regime in a strategic sense and his intent became Iraq's strategic policy.

pt2- Saddam's primary goal from 1991 to 2003 was to have UN sanctions lifted, while maintaining the security of the Regime. He sought to balance the need to cooperate with UN inspections--to gain support for lifting sanctions--with his intention to preserve Iraq's intellectual capital for WMD with a minimum of foreign intrusiveness and loss of face. Indeed, this remained the goal to the end of the Regime, as the starting of any WMD program, conspicuous or otherwise, risked undoing the progress achieved in undoing the progress achieved in eroding sanctions and jeopardizing a political end to the embargo and international monitoring.

pt3- The introduction of the Oil-For-Food program (OFF) in late 1996 was a key turning point for the Regime. OFF rescued Bagdad's economy from a terminal decline created by sanctions. The Regime quickly came to see tat OFF could be corrupted to acquire foreign exchange both to further undermine sanctions and to provide the means to enance dual-use infrastructure and potential WMD-related development.

pt4- By 2000-2001, Saddam had managed to mitigate many of the effects of the sanctions and undermine their international support. Iraq was within striking distance of a de facto end to the sanctions regime, both in terms of oil exports and the trade embargo by the end of 1999.

Saddam wanted to recreate Iraq's WMD capability--which was essentially destroyed in 1991--after sanctions were removed and Iraq's economy stabilized, but probably with a different mix of capabilities to that which previously existed. Saddam aspired to develop nuclear capability--in an incremental fashion, irrespective of international pressure and the resulting economic risks--but he intended to focus on ballistic missile and tactical chemical warfare (CW) capabilities.

pt1- Iran was the pre-eminate motivator of this policy. All senior level Iraqi officials considered Iran to be Iraq's principal enemy in the region. The wish to balance Israel and acquire status and influence in the Arab world were also considerattions, but secondary.

pt2- Iraq Survey Group (ISG) judges that events in the 1980s and early 1990s shaped Saddam's belief in the value of WMD. In Saddam's view, WMD helped save the Regime multiple times. He believed that during the Iran-Iraq war chemical weapons had halted Iranian ground offensives and that ballistic missile attacks attacks on Tehran had broken its political will. Similarly during Desert Storm, Saddam believed WMD had deterred Coalition Forces from pressing their attack beyond the goal of feeing Kuwait. WMD had even played a role in crushing the Shi'a revolt in the south following the 1991 cease-fire.

pt3- The former Regime had no formal written strategy or plan for the revival of WMD after sanctions. Neither was there an identifiable group of WMD policy makers or planners separate from Saddam. Instead, his lieutenants understood WMD revival was his goal from their long association with Saddam and his infrequent, but firm, verbal comments and directions to them.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 03:03 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
DTOM write:
Quote:
"liberals" applied the way you have used it here isn't a characterization?


Of course it's a characterization to save a whole lot of words. If we have to define 'liberalism' or 'conservatism' every time we allude to it, it would get tedious. The terms of themselves are neither positive or negative, but there are particular ideologies assigned to both.

I don't assign that ideology to you, DTOM, or anybody else on A2K; however, you will have to admit that those who oppose the war in Iraq are far more likely to be liberal than they are likely to be conservative. It's sort of a 'if the shoe fits' thing. Even I can be 'liberal' on a single issue and in fact am 'liberal' on some issues.



sure. i respect that. it's hard party liners that make me bother me.

trust me. nobody was more surpised than i was when i realized i was nodding my head to nearly everything that pat buchannon was saying on the iraq war. and, god forgive me, on some other things as well.

like i said someplace else, "chinese menu politics".
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 03:30 pm
DTOM writes
Quote:
like i said someplace else, "chinese menu politics".


I love it. Smile

And Walter, you and your friends must have a very different definition of 'communistic' than I do, but I assume that was a joke. Smile
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