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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 12:13 am
Here's an amazing thing. I will refrain from comment until later.

quote:

Why is war-torn Iraq giving $190,000 to Toys R Us?

Naomi Klein Iraqis are still being forced to pay for crimes committed by Saddam

Saturday October 16, 2004
The Guardian

Next week, something will happen that will unmask the upside-down morality of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. On October 21, Iraq will pay $200m in war reparations to some of the richest countries and corporations in the world.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1328887,00.html
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 12:20 am


Im keeping this
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 05:00 am
Holy Cow!

Just when you think it can't get anymore bizarre...........
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JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 06:34 am
These are debts incurred by and agreed to by Iraqi officials. War reparations are nothing particularly new. As I suggested long ago, these legal debts should be paid or renegotiated as things change. The latter course may be wise when one contemplates WWI reparations forced upon Germany after that conflict. Germans viewed these as particularly odious and used them in their rationale to start WWII. Being made financially whole is important, but it seems the Marshall plan was more successful towards lasting peace than past efforts to "balance the books". Similarly, Macarthur's efforts in Japan afforded the U.S. much positive influence in the area.

JM
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 10:43 am
Considering that the Iraqis have been forgiven billions in debts by other countries, it doesn't seem unreasonable for them to pay their bills owed to lesser entities.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 10:57 am
Actually I think the plan is to extract the cost of the war out of oil exports, before Iraq sees any benefit from its mineral wealth.

But that story was obscene, no? American Express to be paid for shortfall in future business in Kuwait?
Halliburton are already on a very big earner.
I'm not against fair reparation for war damage...but I think other imperatives like clean water and restoration of power in Iraq should be given priority over payments to international companies. Also, since Iraq was a dictatorship and one of the main aims of the conquerors was regime change...why should the new regime be responsible for anything Saddam did?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 11:09 am
I don't know. The liberals in our country seem to think we owe reparations for slavery that hasn't existed here for well over 100 years. People are funny critters.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 11:30 am
Foxfyre wrote
Quote:
The liberals in our country seem to think we owe reparations for slavery that hasn't existed here for well over 100 years. People are funny critters


Yes, you are a funny critter when you spout such misinformation. The only ones that are pushing for those reparations are some of the black groups. It is not a liberal nor conservative issue.
Don't you think despite the fact that you are a Bush supporter you try a little honesty? i guess that would go against a republicans nature. :wink: :wink:
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 12:12 pm
Are you saying the Democrat Black Caucus isn't liberal Au? And if a bill to pay reparations to descendents of American slaves makes it out of committee, can you be honest about which side--the left or the right--is most likely to vote for it? You surely aren't saying that it matters whether a person is black or white who is an advocate for this issue.
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 01:41 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Are you saying the Democrat Black Caucus isn't liberal Au?


well, one thing we do know fox. they are black. and while there are some "liberals" of other ethnicities that are all for the reparations idea, the fall more into the liberal "extremist" catagory that i opined about on another thread.

since you've identified me as a liberal fox, it might surprise you that i'm not in favor of it.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 02:20 pm
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

NOTE: The term al Qaeda as used here refers to its terrorist members, terrorist affiliates and terrorist sympathesizers.

Quote:
Section 2.5

...in March 1997. The Taliban leader Mullah Omar promptly "invited" Bin Ladin to move to Kandahar, .73

... around this time Bin Ladin sent out a number of feelers to the Iraqi regime, offering some cooperation. ... Saddam Hussein's efforts at this time to rebuild relations with the Saudis and other Middle Eastern regimes led him to stay clear of Bin Ladin.74


Inference: Osama wanted al Qaeda harbored in Iraq as well as Afghanistan, but Saddam didn't want them in Iraq at that time.

Quote:
... In March 1998, after Bin Ladin's public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. In 1998, Iraq was under intensifying U.S. pressure, which culminated in a series of large air attacks in December.75


Inference: Saddam reconsidered and offered to harbor al Qaeda in Iraq, but Osama declined because he was reluctant to accept Saddam's offer then because of large US air attacks on Iraq.

Quote:
Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and Bin Ladin or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered Bin Ladin a safe haven in Iraq. Bin Ladin declined, apparently judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative. ... .76


Inference: Saddam persisted and again offered to harbor al Qaeda in Iraq, but Osama declined again judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan then remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative.

In October 2001, US invaded Afghanistan and began a massive extermination of the al Qaeda there.

Inference: Osama then in 2002 judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan no longer remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative, finally accepted Saddam's offer and relocated some of al Qaeda in isolated areas of Iraq.

According to Colin Powell's speech to UN in February 2003, there was at that time more than one al Qaeda camp in Iraq.

In 2003, multiple al Qaeda camps in Iraq were destoyed during the US invasion.

Inference: Iraq was harboring al Qaida in Iraq prior to the US invasion of Iraq.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 02:36 pm
Fox
It may surprise you to learn that all people who are democrats and or are voting for the democratic candidates are not liberals any more than all republicans are Christian Holy Rollers.

I should also explain to you since there appears to be some defective thinking on your part or is it a red herring. Aside from some in the black caucus and black organizations there are very few others if any that advocate reparations for slavery. Liberal or middle of the road.
To suggest otherwise is the usual broad brush republican bull crap.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 02:50 pm
Carles Duelfer's Report, 30 September 2004

www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/

Key Findings

Regime Strategic Intent - Key Findings

Regime Finance and Procurement - Key Findings

Delivery Systems - Key Findings

Nuclear - Key Findings

Chemical - Key Findings

Biological - Key Findings


Quote:
(transcribed from pdf version of Duelfer Report)

Regime Strategic Intent

Key Findings

Saddam Husayn so dominated the Iraqi Regime that its strategic intent was his alone. He wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction (WMD) when sanctions were lifted.

pt1- Saddam totally dominated the Regime's strategic decision making. He initiated most of the strategic thinking upon which decisions were made, whether in matters of war and peace (such as invading Kuwait), maintaining WMD as a national strategic goal, or on how Iraq was to position itself in the international community. Loyal dissent was discouraged and constructive variations to the implementation of his wishes on strategic issues were rare. Saddam was the Regime in a strategic sense and his intent became Iraq's strategic policy.

pt2- Saddam's primary goal from 1991 to 2003 was to have UN sanctions lifted, while maintaining the security of the Regime. He sought to balance the need to cooperate with UN inspections--to gain support for lifting sanctions--with his intention to preserve Iraq's intellectual capital for WMD with a minimum of foreign intrusiveness and loss of face. Indeed, this remained the goal to the end of the Regime, as the starting of any WMD program, conspicuous or otherwise, risked undoing the progress achieved in undoing the progress achieved in eroding sanctions and jeopardizing a political end to the embargo and international monitoring.

pt3- The introduction of the Oil-For-Food program (OFF) in late 1996 was a key turning point for the Regime. OFF rescued Bagdad's economy from a terminal decline created by sanctions. The Regime quickly came to see tat OFF could be corrupted to acquire foreign exchange both to further undermine sanctions and to provide the means to enance dual-use infrastructure and potential WMD-related development.

pt4- By 2000-2001, Saddam had managed to mitigate many of the effects of the sanctions and undermine their international support. Iraq was within striking distance of a de facto end to the sanctions regime, both in terms of oil exports and the trade embargo by the end of 1999.

Saddam wanted to recreate Iraq's WMD capability--which was essentially destroyed in 1991--after sanctions were removed and Iraq's economy stabilized, but probably with a different mix of capabilities to that which previously existed. Saddam aspired to develop nuclear capability--in an incremental fashion, irrespective of international pressure and the resulting economic risks--but he intended to focus on ballistic missile and tactical chemical warfare (CW) capabilities.

pt1- Iran was the pre-eminate motivator of this policy. All senior level Iraqi officials considered Iran to be Iraq's principal enemy in the region. The wish to balance Israel and acquire status and influence in the Arab world were also considerattions, but secondary.

pt2- Iraq Survey Group (ISG) judges that events in the 1980s and early 1990s shaped Saddam's belief in the value of WMD. In Saddam's view, WMD helped save the Regime multiple times. He believed that during the Iran-Iraq war chemical weapons had halted Iranian ground offensives and that ballistic missile attacks attacks on Tehran had broken its political will. Similarly during Desert Storm, Saddam believed WMD had deterred Coalition Forces from pressing their attack beyond the goal of feeing Kuwait. WMD had even played a role in crushing the Shi'a revolt in the south following the 1991 cease-fire.

pt3- The former Regime had no formal written strategy or plan for the revival of WMD after sanctions. Neither was there an identifiable group of WMD policy makers or planners separate from Saddam. Instead, his lieutenants understood WMD revival was his goal from their long association with Saddam and his infrequent, but firm, verbal comments and directions to them.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 03:18 pm
To AU and DTOM, I try not to label (or psychoanalyze or characterize) people any differently than they characterize themselves.
And whether either of you are for it is beside the point. Those who ARE in favor of it are overwhelmingly in the left wing and I don't see that it makes any difference what color they are. I accept that Au today has characterized me as dishonest and given to defective thinking and DTOM thinks I don't have a clue, and both of you thereby either sidestepped or denied that it is liberals who push agendas like reparation. Smile
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 03:42 pm
It makes a hell of a lot of difference. It is a black not liberal issue.
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 04:12 pm
ican,
That's a lot of inferring based on admittedly unreliable reports, one of which is even titled "Special Analysis: Iraq's Inconclusive Ties to Al-Qaida," and allegations, some of which came from an al Qaeda operative who subsequently recanted much of his original information (Intelligence report, interrogation of al Qaeda operative, Feb. 14, 2004.[2.5, note 76, 9/11 Commission Report]).

Where's the evidence, not just conjectures, not mere inferences, where's the evidence of Saddam's harboring ties to al Qaeda?
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 04:22 pm
McTag wrote:
...Also, since Iraq was a dictatorship and one of the main aims of the conquerors was regime change...why should the new regime be responsible for anything Saddam did?
I think we may agree. But I'll bet we differ on who's the real culprit in this reparations program. The following excerpt taken from near the end of the link you posted explains who the main culprit truly is (my emphasis is added).

Quote:
Fortunately, there is a simple way to put an end to these grotesque corporate subsidies. According to United Nations security council resolution 687, which created the reparations programme, payments from Iraq must take into account "the requirements of the people of Iraq, Iraq's payment capacity, and the needs of the Iraqi economy". If a single one of these three issues were genuinely taken into account, the security council would vote to put an end to these payouts tomorrow.

That is the demand of Jubilee Iraq, a debt relief organisation based in London. Reparations are owed to the victims of Saddam Hussein, the group argues - both in Iraq and in Kuwait. But the people of Iraq, who were themselves Saddam's primary victims, should not be paying them. Instead, reparations should be the responsibility of the governments that loaned billions to Saddam, knowing the money was being spent on weapons so he could wage war on his neighbours and his own people. "If justice, and not power, prevailed in international affairs, then Saddam's creditors would be paying reparations to Kuwait as well as far greater reparations to the Iraqi people," says Justin Alexander, coordinator of Jubilee Iraq.

Right now precisely the opposite is happening: instead of flowing into Iraq, reparations are flowing out. It's time for the tide to turn.


Yes folks, this program was created by a UN resolution. Yes folks, those clearly responsible for paying these reparations are the governments that subsidized Saddam's crimes for which reparations are due. Yes, folks, that's almost totally France, Germany and Russia. Sad
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 04:56 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
ican,
That's a lot of inferring ... Where's the evidence, not just conjectures, not mere inferences, where's the evidence of Saddam's harboring ties to al Qaeda?


They are not my conjectures, they are the 9-11 Commission conjectures from which I inferred what I inferred. Which of those conjectures do you disagree with?

Do you think the conjectures of the 9-11 Commission Report (plus one from Colin Powell's February 2003 speech to the UN) do not constitute evidence? If so, your position is now at variance with your previous reliance on various 9-11 Commission conjectures including but not limited to the one that says (I paraphrase) there was no collaborative relationship between Saddam and al Qaeda on the planning and execution of the 9/11/2004 attack on the WTC, or of the 1993 attack on the WTC, or of the attack on the Destroyer Cole.

Mere inferences? Shocked Either the inferences are logical or they are illogical. If logical they surely constitute valid evidence if the Commission's conjectures constitute valid evidence. If you think the inferences are illogical, then provide some argument why.

What evidence do you have that the Commission's conjectures are false? What evidence do you have that al Qaeda members, or associates, or affiliates, or sympathizers or aiders and abetters, were not harbored in Iraq? Please don't argue that fallacious bunk about one cannot prove a negative. One surely can prove a negative. For example, aviators, scientists, engineers, medical doctors, and defense attorneys do it routinely. Surely, you can too (or surely you ought to be able to do it too)?
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JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 09:40 pm
We must remember that the UN allowed Saddam to not only negotiate with but to pick those suppliers involved in the Oil for food/medicine program that was intended to help the Iraqi people survive the sanctions. Saddam seemed to favor those contractors inclined to clandestine charity payments to his Presidential Palace fund.

Paul Volcker, who has been given an investigative commission regarding the Oil for Food program by the UN, is now in the process of trying to sort out "where the money went" after it left Iraqi coffers. His efforts, however, seem only focused towards UN officials and not those in national governments. But a recent article in The Economist actually names such individuals. Widening the investigation would most likely do the same to observer's eyes.

Is the UN a snake pit of corruption? Maybe, but an aid plan with safeguards that assume the worst of people would go a along way to preventing corruption...if that's what is desired. Wilsonian ideology is fine, until power and money enter the fray. Many have expressed hope that the UN is the solution to international problems and that the ICC (International Criminal Court) would solve world injustice. The UN as legislator and the ICC as judiciary implies a triumvirate and thereby exposes an incomplete thought. What entity is charged with the execution of such laws and legal decisions so conceived? This exposes the need for an international body to actually enforce this utopian international law so pined for. However, the rocky coast of the real world always lies in wait to dash the hopes of those striving for global unity. Oh, if we could only get along!

From my readings, it really looked like Saddam wanted it to appear that he was complying with UNSC Resolution 1441 (among others) by destroying his WMD while retaining the ability to reconstitute same at a later, more opportune, time. This conclusion is congruous with Saddam's past statements, actions, "vision thing", and situation at the time. He probably did shed the actual WMD he just could not document it to the inspectors without revealing his potential to reproduce them later after the inspectors would have hopefully left. (Oh, the best made plans of mice and men! Martha Stewart is in the slammer not for doing something heinous but merely for a natural first line human defense in time of trouble: deny all! Go Figure!)

JM
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2004 09:53 pm
Thanks for another thoughtful post, JM.
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