0
   

THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Oct, 2004 08:24 pm
Quote, " I advocate the same for everybody." Who wudda thought. LOL
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Oct, 2004 08:26 pm
ican's question, "How are the repubs doing that? I thought it was the democs running the polls in 2000 who denied a lot of blacks the right to vote in Florida." If you think a search on Kerry will find your answer, by all means do any search you wish. You see, I thought you were talking about the repubs, but I was wrong - as usual.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Oct, 2004 08:57 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Actually I do care Dys. Despite my reputation here on A2K as a rapid partisan, I decide, and vote, on principles, not labels. I advocate the same for everybody.

If you don't mind, I would like to pursue this a bit. Today I was talking to someone who defines himself as a independent but said to me, If I have no specific knowledge of candidates on a ballot question I will generally vote for the democrat" I went home and thought about this and I would like you, in all honesty to think about this yourself because I get the definite impression you would do the same (but republician) when either candidate could very well be a wolf in sheeps clothing (if you get my drift)
so I came home and tried to remember if I have ever done the same (perhaps I have) but generally no I haven't. To the best of my knowledge in that situation I have declined to vote on that specific selection. It is sort of a vague question but one I confronted meself with today. Do you do that?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Oct, 2004 09:01 pm
If I don't know anything about the candidate, I don't vote for that race. We have some really bad Republicans here in New Mexico which you will no doubt run across sooner or later; and there are some Democrats I have voted for purely because they were far better qualified than the Republican running. I am actually a 'not-very-strong' Republican though I register Republican so I can vote in the primary. I am more Republican than Democrat however. I am more libertarian (little 'L') than anything.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Oct, 2004 09:14 pm
well, your image is not well reflected on these forums. Thomas is the only libertarian I see on a2k and I believe highly regarded by both sides of the aisle, but then I am usually seen as an anarchist (or anti-christ) which may or may not be accurate.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Oct, 2004 09:14 pm
None.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Oct, 2004 10:26 pm
I personally think Thomas is too pro-government to be a reallygood libertarian. Smile
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Oct, 2004 10:37 pm
Dys
Re. the wolf in sheeps clothing, this is a clip from the Letters to the Editor of today's Arizona Daily Star.
Quote:
Sweeney is like malignant cancer

We've ignored a cancer for years, and it's exploded into our system. Joe Sweeney's been around for 25 years, running for office as a Republican, a Democrat and under other political parties, but always the same sickness.

Sweeney regularly uses insulting terms for Jews and Mexicans such as "wetbacks," "little monkeys," "Bolshevik Zionism" and other terms right out of the fever swamps of racial hatred. The hatred is foul, but the sheer ignorance is absolutely insulting. What have we allowed to grow?

Sweeney beat a fine man, Lou Muñoz, in the District 7 primary to face Rep. Raúl Grijalva. He won by keeping silent and letting residual name-identification work for him. Also, Sweeney knew the newspapers would ignore him the way they always have.

The Star endorsed Muñoz but was largely silent on Sweeney. Journalism failed its calling. And we've all failed by ignoring the tumor in our midst.

I denounce Sweeney and everything he stands for. Sharing a ballot and a political party with Sweeney repels me. I consider him an ignorant racist and wonder how he got this far.

Bill Heuisler

Candidate for Pima County assessor, Tucson
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Oct, 2004 11:06 pm
Unfortunately there is no provision in any political party for disaffiliating an unacceptable candidate in their midst. Thus the Republican wind up with a David Duke they'd like to disbar from the party but cannot and the Democrats wind up with their fair share of scoundrels as well.

Then again, mudslinging, deserved or not, is quite common in all political campaigns these days. So how accurate is Huelsler's opinion of Sweeney? As Dys points out, my image here on A2K is probably a poor one among most of the members as most do not share my views. I am described in quite uncomplimentary terms, sometimes deserved, sometimes not. And yet nobody here knows who and what I really am or whether I would be acceptable in your social circle.

I guess what I'm saying is, I take letters like Hueisler wrote with a grain of salt until it is affirmed by other sources. Mesquite may already know of such affirmation; however, the rest of us, unfamiliar with the issues, don't.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 12:06 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I guess what I'm saying is, I take letters like Hueisler wrote with a grain of salt until it is affirmed by other sources. Mesquite may already know of such affirmation; however, the rest of us, unfamiliar with the issues, don't.


Hueisler is running for County Assessor and Sweeny is running for Congress. Both are republican, so Hueisler would have no political motive. There is this article.

Sweeney's primary win leaves Republicans cold.

Sweeney is playing the immigration card since that is a hot button issue here as we are close to the Mexican border.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 05:36 am
Yeah, he looks like somebody who could offend just about everybody. New Mexico Republicans are pretty good to squelch the occasional rogues that pop up now and then and looks like the Arizona Republicans do too.

You have to wonder, though, at the level of frustration that compels people to vote for somebody like Sweeney in the first place. Come November, Republicans are going to be torn--vote in a Democrat or vote for an unacceptable Republican.

The NY Times today is reporting Iraqi fears that the Sunnis may boycott the January election. What do you want to bet they'll then say they were disenfranchised? I'm hoping this is a temporary glitch and they aren't taking too many cues from American politics.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 05:41 am
Foxfyre wrote:
The only congregations in New Mexico that have been reported as signing up voters to vote along with instructions of who to vote for have been minority churches and it has been Kerry supporters leading those initiatives.

As for the Pope, he's between a rock and a hard place isn't he? Against abortion and against the war. Gonna be tough for him to take a side.

As for the 700 Club and other television programs, I wonder if Revel has as much problem with Hollywood types organizing to defeat Bush....they have a lot more influence and a much broader forum to exert it. Or is it just Christians who aren't supposed to have an opinion or point of view?

And Ican, the only thing I can figure is that the only moral war is one that the Democrats start and run.


We have strayed from the topic of this board.

I suppose it depends on a person's mindset on how they feel about religion and politics on whether they find it offensive if someone mixes the two. I strongly believe in separating the two from both ends meaning from inside churches and religious settings and from politics and government things. When I go to church I go to worship God and I put aside all worldly matters. I simply don't appreciate having it thrust at me from inside the church. I find it deeply offensive. For that reason I could never belong to a catholic church or another kind of church that is involved so much in worldy matters. If I turn on the TV and I start hearing about George Bush and his born again conversion and then after that I start hearing about the Muslims and Iraq and the whole middle east crisis, I get offended and I turn the channel.

When the civil rights movement first began to get its legs so to speak they mostly met in the churches where they worshiped because usually the churches were segretated into all black or all white churches so they could be sure to discuss their issues in a safe place. So it is not the same as what is happening today with the christian right wing movement and to say it is the same is being purposely deceitful.

On the other hand people like Kerry and other democrats that show up in Black churches is catering for political purposes and it is just as offensive as right wingers.

As just a side note that really has no bearing on anything, Bill Clinton grew up going to black churches so it is not so off the wall for him to connect with them.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 05:49 am
Some nice reading from the Guardian's online (subscription) edition:
Quote:
The Wrap: A worm's eye view

Monday October 11, 2004

Andrew Brown is shocked by the latest revelations about Saddam Hussein's behaviour
Hold the front page! Like the Times and the Telegraph, I am shocked almost beyond words, and certainly far beyond thought, by the discovery that Saddam Hussein was so unimaginably depraved that he not only gassed his enemies, tortured his victims, killed millions of innocent people, and had a thriving programme to manufacture programmes of capability related to weapons of mass destruction, but he was also prepared to use money to further his evil aims.

This, surely, is the real scandal. As the Telegraph puts it in a leader: "If the report is embarrassing for the British and US governments, for those of Russia, France and China, it is damning. Saddam used cash stolen from the UN's flawed oil-for-food programme to induce these permanent members of the security council to thwart their Anglo-American allies. The motives of those states that went to war emerge as far less tainted than those that opposed it. If the British and Americans were duped by Saddam, the Russians and French had their palms greased by him."

This makes a number of things immediately clear. First, that Saddam himself was entirely responsible for the war: he duped us into attacking him, overthrowing his regime, killing his sons and imprisoning him, and we are powerless to prevent the final triumph of his plan to dominate the Middle East, which will come when the Allawi regime has him executed. A plan of such fiendish cunning makes it obvious that the world is better off without him. How lucky we are to have in George W Bush a leader who is fully his equal in strategic planning.

More important is the unprecedented evil of his attempt to bribe foreign governments and politicians in order to further his foreign policy. We don't know whether any of these attempts actually succeeded. But we know they were made, because the accusations come from a source with a proven track record: Ahmed Chalabi, whose men seized these records from Iraqi government ministries back when he was the Pentagon's man in Iraq, and have kindly made copies available to anyone interested.

The UN hasn't, of course, examined the originals. No outsider has. But Mr Chalabi's credentials as a supplier of intelligence are a matter of historical record and heartfelt testimonials may be obtained on application from the CIA, the Pentagon, the Iraq Survey Group and the government in Tehran.

The Telegraph, at least, has no more doubts over the story of Saddam's attempted bribery than it once had over the information that Mr Chalabi supplied about Saddam's WMD: "If anything, the report reinforces the case for regime change, by demonstrating the malign influence that Saddam's Iraq exerted over the entire international system. His capacity for genocide had indeed decayed, but by 2003 ... Saddam was more dangerous than ever before."

When you look around the promoters of this war, it is easy to understand how none of them could have imagined that Saddam would stoop to using bribery to further his ends. After all, their experience is almost entirely as recipients of this kind of thing rather than as distributors.

There are exceptions to this rule: there was an aid package to Turkey just before the war broke out, which the Telegraph reported at the time was worth GBP10bn. But since the Turks declined to enter the war, it was never paid. So that's all right. Pakistan is getting about USD3bn in aid agreed since September 11. But at least none of this is paid in slimy oil.

No one with any experience of American politics could suppose that the Halliburton corporation expects any favours from vice-president Cheney, or that any of the corporate contributors to political campaigns act except from patriotism or are rewarded except with virtue. The career of our own Sir Mark Thatcher shows how ludicrous is the idea that influence could be exchanged for cash, and no Englishman could even understand it, let alone seek to profit from it.

Indeed, the Telegraph's leader writer need only look at the owners of his own paper, and consider how greatly the moral authority of Lord and Lady Black has grown and with how much more respect their views are heard now that they have only the force of argument to recommend them, and are not clouded by the several hundred million dollars that they once appeared to own.

The thought that this kind of corruption might penetrate to the heart of the Anglo-American alliance and that men like Richard Perle or Henry Kissinger could take money from foreign governments would be terrifying, were it not so absurd. But if there were ever the slightest danger that this might happen, we would have to exert our utmost force to defeat it.

If ever an argument was needed to show conclusively that Saddam Hussein was such a danger to civilisation that he must be overthrown at once, the Iraq Survey Group has provided it. I can't imagine why it took so long for the Telegraph to realise this.

* Andrew Brown is the author of The Darwin Wars: The Scientific War for the Soul of Man and In the Beginning Was the Worm: Finding the Secrets of Life in a Tiny Hermaphrodite. He also maintains a weblog, the Helmintholog
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 12:36 pm
JOHN KERRY IS A PURVEYOR OF FAIRY TALES (I.E., KERRY IS A CHARLATAN)

John Kerry spent at least the six months preceeding the first debate claiming in both speech and TV ads that George Bush is a liar. When asked in the first debate to explain this claim of his, he declared he never accused George Bush of lying. Two days after the first debate, John Kerry released a TV ad claiming Bush was a liar.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 12:38 pm
Heh, THAT came out of nowhere, Icann.

Why the sudden vitriol? I thought you were more of a policy debate kind of guy.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 01:03 pm
ican711nm wrote:
JOHN KERRY IS A PURVEYOR OF FAIRY TALES (I.E., KERRY IS A CHARLATAN)

John Kerry spent at least the six months preceeding the first debate claiming in both speech and TV ads that George Bush is a liar. When asked in the first debate to explain this claim of his, he declared he never accused George Bush of lying. Two days after the first debate, John Kerry released a TV ad claiming Bush was a liar.


Bush spent six months during the run up to Iraq demonstrating Kerry's claim. About the only thing left to debate is whether it was flat out lying, or just gross exaggeration and cherry picking of intel.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 01:05 pm
Good post Revel.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 01:39 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Some nice reading from the Guardian's online (subscription) edition:
Quote:


nothing like a little perspective, eh, walter?

thanks !
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 01:40 pm
JOHN KERRY IS A PURVEYOR OF FAIRY TALES (I.E., KERRY IS A CHARLATAN)

John Kerry claims that the invasion of Iraq was the wrong war, the wrong place, and the wrong time. John Kerry claims the invasion of Afghanistan was the right war, the right place and the right time.

But neither invasion was approved by the UN.

How do the practical justifications for the Iraq invasion differ from the practical justifications for the Afghanistan invasion?

Al Qaeda leaders have declared war on Americans.

Al Qaeda has murdered thousands of innocent people.

Al Qaeda was sheltered in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Al Qaeda in both countries trained people to murder innocent people.

Neither the government of Iraq or the government of Afghanistan agreed to stop sheltering al Qaeda in their countries

[But suppose Saddam didn't agree he was sheltering al Qaeda in Iraq. How would that supposed disagreement by Saddam make the sheltering of al Qaeda in Iraq less of a threat to "kill Americans whereever you find them" than the sheltering of al Qaeda in Afghanistan?"]
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 01:45 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Al Qaeda in both countries trained people to murder innocent people.


Which one was it where they were trained in flight schools for piloting the 9/11 attack?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.07 seconds on 07/23/2025 at 03:27:43