Is the world being destroyed?

@Walter Hinteler,

This isn't about "capitalism". This thread is an attack on progress. I don't always support "capitalism" (however that is defined). I support government science and public health in combinations with a markets that are part free and part regulated. This is irrelevant.

This thread is denying or minimizing any progress that we have made. The fact that we have doubled human life spans, cured diseases, greatly reduced famine and made life better even in the poorest of countries doesn't matter. Plastics, clean drinking water, airplanes, and vaccines aren't important.

The game is to generate outrage by exaggerating problems and focusing on crisis big and small. This is why we have had story after story, some true, some exaggerated and some ridiculous that paint an apocalyptic narrative of imminent doom.

The worst of this narrative is that it is counter productive. Everyone sane knows that we need to invest in new technology to move away from fossil fuels. This is scorned by the anti-progress left as "using technology to solve problems" (which really should be a good thing).

I am happy with a narrative that tells sides of the story....

1) The human race has made great progress. More than at any time in history we have decreased starvation and poverty. We have cured diseases. We have increased leisure time and slashed childhood poverty. All of these things have increased the quality of life even in developing countries.

2) We are now facing new challenges, by far the greatest is climate change. The human race needs to figure out how to reduce emissions by switching from fossil fuels to new energy sources and increasing efficiency.

The frustrating thing about the left is they focus so much on the story of gloom and their condemnation of the entire human race that they take away from what we need to do.

I keep trying to talk about what we can do to address the challenge of climate change (and other challenges). No one seems to want to have that discussion.

The soap box is much easier.

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I think the term "anti-progress left" is appropriate for that part of the far left that attacks scientific and technological progress.

Ironically, the people called "progressives" are anti-progress.

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There is an old saying "It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness".

Hightor and Farmerman are cursing the candle.

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@maxdancona,

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This thread is an attack on progress.

No, it's a critique of negative developments which have accompanied "progress".

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This thread is denying or minimizing any progress that we have made.

No, it's about addressing the unintended consequences of irresponsible decisions which were made solely because they could be sold as "progress".

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The game is to generate outrage by exaggerating problems and focusing on crisis big and small.

Wrong again. There's no "game". And you're the only one emotional enough to evince any "outrage". What would be the point of generating this "outrage"? None of this is new, FFS, we've grown up witnessing the rising awareness that things can't continue in the same manner.

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The worst of this narrative is that it is counter productive.

It's ridiculous to think that anything posted here has any effect on anyone other than prompting you to denounce anything which doesn't fit your "ideological narrative©".

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This is scorned by the anti-progress left as "using technology to solve problems" (which really should be a good thing).

Well, I'll give you a little credit here; yes it should be a good thing. But some skepticism is necessary. When the same economic forces and assumptions which propelled us into this unfolding series of crises are now held up as the best method of reversing course, that should give us pause. We've heard this crap before. "Trust us; we know." Only to leave it to posterity to fix the environmental damage caused by plastics, fertilizers, dams, power plants, landfills, and so many other structures and processes which we were promised would only make our lives easier.

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All of these things have increased the quality of life even in developing countries.

No, they haven't "increased the quality of life". They've changed the quality of life, often for the worse. They've simply replaced the difficulties faced by people two hundred years ago with new problems. Like industrial pollution on a global scale, overpopulation, obesity, and urban slums which dwarf their pre-industrial precedents.

https://preview.redd.it/h7pvqd5bo5o71.jpg?width=624&auto=webp&s=659c61008bc35b17626c643cd4fd47a17bf170f7

https://preview.redd.it/azets7p8grn71.jpg?width=768&auto=webp&s=338e783a50ccf23e13da0599eccda95d7de52a59

https://preview.redd.it/h857pnsls9m71.jpg?width=621&auto=webp&s=49245d15eae6362ddae0386335ce514c46a7b713

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The frustrating thing about the left is they focus so much on the story of gloom and their condemnation of the entire human race that they take away from what we need to do.

No one's "condemning" the entire human race and "gloom" is simply your personal take on the stories presented here.

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No one seems to want to have that discussion.

Not with you. You simply ignore questions which are inconvenient or don't have a simple answer which fits your "ideological narrative©".

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The soap box is much easier.

This thread wasn't meant to be a "soap box". It was meant to function as a billboard or dazibao. You're the one ranting about the articles; I was content to simply let the thread speak for itself.

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@maxdancona,

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"It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness".

It's not an either/or situation. It's possible to do both.

And would you please put out that candle — it's filling the thread with CO2. I thought you, of all people, would be sporting one of those LED flashlights.

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@hightor,

Quote:

You say you'll change the Constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You'd better free your mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow

Hightor seems to have a fondness for the Chinese Communist party. When we were talking about vaccines, he was hyping the glorious success of the Chinese Communist party in developing a vaccine.

And now he is touting dazibao, a form of Chinese Political propaganda that was used to great effect during Chairman Mao's Cultural revolution.

I am not saying Hightor is a Communist (nor do I care). But a positive view of Communist China is a strange recurring theme in what Hightor writes.

I have no problem saying that Western Democracy and Capitalism has real advantages over Chinese Communism in many fronts, including human rights, corruption, productivity.... and in reduction of carbon emissions.

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There are three ways (that I know of) to reduce consumption, whether we are worried about carbon or plastics or pesticides.

1) You can raise the cost. When gas prices go up people drive less.

2) You can make use illegal. Where I live stores are not allowed by law to give out plastic bags or sell single use bottles of water.

3) You can provide a better alternative. When it was discovered that CFCs used as refeigerants were depleting the ozone layer, scientists developed new better refrigerants.

These are the three options available under any ststem of government. I think each is appropriate in certain circumstances. Making something illegal often has negative unintended consequences.

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Since they banned plastic bags in stores, I have started buying boxes of my own plastic bags. I have a dog. Plastic bags are obligatory and I can no longer recycle the bags from the supermarket.

I use these plastic bags to store food too. My daughter thinks this is gross as though these bags are unsanitary before they contain dog poop.

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@maxdancona,

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Hightor seems to have a fondness for the Chinese Communist party. When we were talking about vaccines, he was hyping the glorious success of the Chinese Communist party in developing a vaccine.

maxdancona, this is a flat out lie. I never "hyped the glorious success of the Chinese Communist party in developing a vaccine". I said that other economic systems were capable of producing vaccines. China and Russia were pointed to as examples. And I explained this to you before. Here is the exchange:

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maxdancona wrote:
Don't idolize the Chinese or Russian governments.

I don't "idolize" them, FFS. I brought them up because they illustrate that other economic systems can produce covid vaccines.

maxdancona wrote:
You seem hold up Russia and China as examples of progress...

No I don't. I think they're both horrible. That doesn't mean they're incapable of producing vaccines.

And it continues:

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And now he is touting dazibao...

No, I'm not praising the Cultural Revolution. Read what I said:

I wrote:

It [the thread] was meant to function as a billboard or dazibao.

My intention was to use this thread as a place where I would compile these articles and they would be available for further reading, linking, or distribution. Like the messages on a billboard (or a dazibao – I happen to like the term), they were meant to speak for themselves, as opposed to a soapbox where I'd be making the argument personally. As I didn't write them, I'm not in a position to explain them nor am I compelled to defend them.

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But a positive view of Communist China is a strange recurring theme in what Hightor writes.

Oh come on. There is no recurring "positive view of China" on my part. It's your contention which is "strange" — like some throwback to McCarthy. I defy you to back up this charge with textual evidence.

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I have no problem saying that Western Democracy and Capitalism has real advantages over Chinese Communism in many fronts, including human rights, corruption, productivity.... and in reduction of carbon emissions.

I have no need to make such an idiotic defense of the very economic system which has brought us climate change – this is just "Joe Biden could beat up Xi Jinping with one hand" childish prattle. This stupid type of nationalism is one of the main reasons the world can't get it's act together to confront climate challenges.

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@maxdancona,

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When it was discovered that CFCs used as refeigerants were depleting the ozone layer, scientists developed new better refrigerants.

And the new refrigerants, HFC's, are hundreds to thousands of times more potent a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. Isn't progress great!

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European Lakes Have Alarming Concentrations of Microplastic Pollution Than Previously Thought

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There are larger concentrations of microplastic pollution in Lakes across Europe than scientists estimated in the past. As per a new study which was released on Tuesday in the journal PLOS Biology, the spread of plastic microparticles and synthetic fibers closely match up with nearby human activity and use of land.

Actually, microplastic pollution can be taken to different places, for instance, deep ocean trenches and mountain peaks, but the latest discovery gave an impression that most plastic pollution is discovered in the waters close to places where humans are making plastic waste.

Researchers trawled the surface waters of several European lakes for microplastics in the study. To recognize the chemical components of the plastic microparticles, they made use of both microscopes and spectral analysis.

Making use of both formerly released data and a model designed to give an explanation of the outcomes of their trawling efforts, researchers roughly calculated the amounts of microplastic pollution discovered in every part of the entire freshwater lake system.

Negative Impacts of Plastic on the Ecosystem

The researchers' simulations revealed microplastic pollution quadruples in water bodies close to regions that have a lot of human activity. Reduced forest cover also has something to do with increased microplastic pollution.

Researchers found that some lakes have the ability to process microplastic pollution better than other lakes. Lakes that have more active microorganisms contained minimal concentrations of plastic microparticles.

Researchers wrote: "Our study provides a valuable evidence base to help prioritize monitoring and mitigation of anthropogenic debris in the world's lakes. As anthropogenic debris continues to pollute the environment, our data will help contextualize future work, and our models can inform control and remediation efforts."

Studies have revealed larval fish can ingest microplastics and make their way up the food chain, thereby disturbing the entire ecosystem. The tiniest size of plastic negatively impacts even the largest aquatic species.

How can Microparticle Pollution be Stopped?

In a press release, Andrew Tanentzap, a lead author said most of their attention on plastic pollution is on the oceans, but they found out that microscopic plastics and man-made fibers also pollute lakes in Europe - the main drinking water sources.

University of Cambridge's head of the Ecosystems and Global Change Group and also a professor of global change ecology named Tanentzap said: "Our study can now help direct control and remediation efforts by identifying hotspots of microparticle pollution based on surrounding land use and water quality."

The study also discovered that the sampled lakes' microparticle concentrations were correctly projected on the basis of their water quality and surrounding land use.

In addition to differences in microparticle concentrations with the use of land, there were five times smaller microparticles in lakes that have more active microorganisms.

This indicated that some naturally occurring species can help get rid of microparticle pollution. Potential studies are required to separate microorganisms from the natural environment and check how capable they are to degrade microplastics and fibres.

natureworldnews

https://1471793142.rsc.cdn77.org/data/images/full/56057/plastic-waste.jpg?w=594?w=650

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@hightor,

This is a great example of outrage porn. The goal is not to inform. The goal is to outrage and titillate the readers.

Look at that picture. The writer is talking about microplastics in European lakes. That picture is not of microplastics, nor is it of a European lake (I did an image search and I am pretty sure it is of a beach in the Dominican Republic).

The word Dazibao is political propaganda. A Dazibao was instrumental in starting the Cultural Revolution in China were people, spurred on by the dazibao, starting killing intellectuals. A Dazibao is a public call to extremism.

These political articles that are designed to shock rather than to inform are also propaganda. I think word "dazibao" fits.

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@hightor,

hightor wrote:

Quote:
When it was discovered that CFCs used as refeigerants were depleting the ozone layer, scientists developed new better refrigerants.

And the new refrigerants, HFC's, are hundreds to thousands of times more potent a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. Isn't progress great!

Do you own a refrigerator, Hightor?

If so, then yes... progress is great. It is the hypocrisy that makes this funny.

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@maxdancona,

Why is it necessary for you to personalize every post? I just told you:

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As I didn't write them, I'm not in a position to explain them nor am I compelled to defend them.

That was one of the photos that accompanied the article. If you have a problem with it, you should direct your criticism at the editors of the source publication.

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A Dazibao is a public call to extremism.

No, the posters were properly used to publicly display dissatisfaction with corruption and incompetence. That they were used during the Cultural Revolution no more invalidates the concept than it would to claim that the Jan 6 insurrection invalidates our 1st Amendment right to assemble and petition.

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These political articles that are designed to shock rather than to inform are also propaganda.

Typically, you're outraged by the picture but apparently fine with microplastic pollution itself, which doesn't even rate a comment. How could anyone be "shocked" by pictures like this? We've grown up with them. Do you want me to censor any photos which might upset your tender sensibilities?

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F68.media.tumblr.com%2F20c680b114925c8b1e0a4727263296fd%2Ftumblr_ngdnujK9He1qabnxjo5_1280.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I am pretty sure it is of a beach in the Dominican Republic).

It's actually - according to the description on Getty Images - Panama Beach.

maxdancona wrote:

The word Dazibao is political propaganda. A Dazibao was instrumental in starting the Cultural Revolution in China were people, spurred on by the dazibao, starting killing intellectuals. A Dazibao is a public call to extremism.

The right to compose dazibao was guaranteed as one of the “four great rights” in the 1975 state constitution of the People’s Republic of China, but in 1980 the right was removed. During the Tiananmen Square incident (1989), and in spite of their illegality, dazibao again became the symbol of democratic sentiment.

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@Walter Hinteler,

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dazibao again became the symbol of democratic sentiment.

I question your use of the word "again". Chairman Mao was not a champion of "democratic sentiment". The history of dazibao is not particularly democratic. The reason the Chinese Communist party allowed the use of dazibao is because they were used to spread political messages that favored them. Once this changed, they become illegal.

Are you really arguing that the Constitution written by the Chinese Communist party and enshrining power in an authoritarian state is "democratic"?

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@maxdancona,

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It is the hypocrisy that makes this funny.

It's neither hypocritical nor funny to expect our household appliances to adhere to environmental standards. As usual, you say nothing about the problems of HFC's and again try to personalize the discussion with a weak attempt at an ad hominem., repeating your stupid "progress is great" slogan while these progressive refrigerants pollute the atmosphere. Yeah, real funny.

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@hightor,

You are ranting against HFCs. You are a consumer of HFCs. You have made a personal decision that the benefits you get from using HFCs outweigh the environmental costs.

If HFCs weren't an improvement from CFCs we would still be using CFCs. Or maybe we could use ice boxes. Or we could live without refrigerants and go back to eating mainly salted meat.

Having an ice box significantly improved our lives. Having a refrigerator improved our lives even more. And our current technology is energy efficient and, along with disposal guidelines, less damaging to the environment.

That's progress.

You don't really need a refrigerator... and yet you have one, don't you.

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@maxdancona,

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Are you really arguing that the Constitution written by the Chinese Communist party and enshrining power in an authoritarian state is "democratic"?

I don't see where Walter Hinteler is "arguing" anything.

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...dazibao again became the symbol of democratic sentiment.

And yes, the 1975 constitution of the Chinese Communist Party is filled with symbolic phrases extolling democratic rights such as freedom of speech, the right of workers to organize and strike, and the rights of ethnic minorities and women! The US Constitution recognized slavery while extolling freedom and liberty.

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@maxdancona,

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You are ranting against HFCs.

And you're making this into a personal argument. I'm hardly "ranting". I'm telling you that "progress" is not a straight line in one direction. We phased out CFC's to protect the ozone layer, and instituted HFC's which are potent greenhouse gases. That's simply a fact. Our economy is built on the need for refrigeration and as consumers we don't have a choice as to which refrigerants are used. As long as I dispose of my refrigerator responsibly the HFC's will be captured and recycled. The problem is that many refrigerators are scrapped irresponsibly and the coils and condensers are destroyed, releasing these gases. That's why refrigerants need to be chosen more carefully – and why we need to develop a circular economy.

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