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Rainsoft \ brass valves \ day timer not working \ cam out of phase?

 
 
Hotwire
 
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 06:03 pm
I'm hoping the rainsoft guys are still around here, I found this site from a google search. I don't need advice on changing the system out or what a piece of crap it is or sob stories, sorry, but thank you, I've seen / read them all already.

I have an old rainsoft system w/ mechanical timers and brass valves. The valves were upgraded w/ teflon seals a new triguard w/ the little white ball, etc. It's been a pretty good system to us, but now it won't keep the time of day.

I pulled the timer system out and brought it to our local Rainsoft dealer, they repaired it, brought it home and installed it tonight. I didn't pay attention but I think the regeneration knob was not where it was supposed to be when I put everything back together, so now I think the cams are out of sync w/ the regeneration knob. Is this possible?

The system is under the house in the crawl space so I haven't had the luxury of hanging around and paying attention to the system, I do see the salt coming through the triguard, I see the little pointy valve closing the salt off, I also see the ball changing position w/ the cams. I'm just not sure what position is the park position. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I found this pic from a previous Rainsoft question, my timer is just like the one on the far left w/ the white face, yellow dial faces, and black knob.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/oldRSvalves.jpg

I can take pics of the cams or whatever I need, once again, any help would be appreciated. We're operating in bypass mode and I would love to get the soft water going again.

Jeff
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H2O MAN
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 09:19 am
@Hotwire,
Hotwire wrote:


I think the cams are out of sync w/ the regeneration knob. Is this possible?


Yes.

I should be able to help you if you can post a picture of cams and their position in relation to the shut off tabs.
Hotwire
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 08:50 pm
@H2O MAN,
I have seen your other posts and want to thank you for being a stand up person and helping other less educated people out here. I try to do the same w/ electronics and automotive related topics, but I have 0 knowledge of this softener.

After doing more "internet research" I have the same problems that everyone else is having, worn cams/stripped gears, BUT I have noticed that I think I'm missing parts too!

Can you view the pics and let me know if I am on the right track? I took the whole timer to my rainsoft dealer and asked them to fix it, told them the timer was not working. They called 2 days later and said it was fixed, 0 fee! Great! I went and picked it up, brought it home, reinstalled it and waited.. and waited.. Nothing. So I got the time to take the timer circuit back out and check the areas that were problems for others, sure enough, I have them.

Why did Rainsoft use punch metal for the cams? They could have at least spent .00001 cent on brushing a little grease on them or something.

Sorry for the ramblings, just a little offset over the lack of care / engineering that went into the design. Sad I also like the thoughtfulness to make them proprietary and not stock high fail parts.

Here are my pictures, thank you again and I do appreciate your time:

Whole system, just salt tank and filter, live out in the country on well water
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/12/12409/folders/293707/23484912008-09-23001r.jpg
Timer faceplate:
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/12/12409/folders/293707/23484922008-09-23002r.jpg
How the cams are sitting right now, have no idea what the correct "seat" position is:
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/12/12409/folders/293707/23484932008-09-23003r.jpg
Backside of system:
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/12/12409/folders/293707/23484942008-09-23005r.jpg
Another shot fo the cams, neither valve is touching:
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/12/12409/folders/293707/23484952008-09-23008r.jpg
Timer circuit, I think there is a cam that goes against the regenerate day sprag, but nothing there!:
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/12/12409/folders/293707/23484962008-09-23013r.jpg
Stripped gear that was supposedly fixed during it's stay @ the trusty Rainsoft dealer:
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/12/12409/folders/293707/23484972008-09-23017r.jpg
Severally worn cam that was overlooked:
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/12/12409/folders/293707/23484982008-09-23019r.jpg
H2O MAN
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 06:00 am
@Hotwire,
The cams have just come out of "brine fill", this step follows "fast rinse", but your yellow discs are out of whack and there is no "brine fill".

Loosen the large black knob and gently move the top disc in a way that completely covers the exposed 22 20, this will expose 2 4 6 of the "brine fill" step.

The worn part held by the long spring in the anti backlash pawl, the sharp teeth on the wheel the yellow disc sit on grind away on this part and it needs to be replaced periodically.

The short purple spring puts tension on the index lever. The tip of the index lever fits into the sharp teeth on the wheel the yellow disc sit on.
The teeth eat away at the tip, once it's gone - nothing works.
Hopefully your RainSoft tech replaced the index lever...
BTW, the index lever is the very 1st part RainSoft made obsolete.


I hope that helps.

Edit (Moderator): URL Removed
Hotwire
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 06:45 am
@H2O MAN,
Thank you for the information, but the pictures of the timer are A F T E R I got it back from the local rainsoft dealer stating it was fixed. The white plastic gear that meshes with the motor is completely chewed up on the top gear. Also, isn't there something that needs to mesh w/ the day/regeneration tabs? It looks like something use to contact the black teeth, but there is nothing touching it now?! I'm taking the timer back to the dealer @ lunch today expressing my concerns, hoping they will replace the plastic gear and reinstall the pawl that contacted the day/regen tab..
H2O MAN
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 07:09 am
@Hotwire,
Make sure the dealer opens the window for the final regeneration step and have them replace the index lever.

What did they charge you the first time?
Hotwire
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 07:58 am
@H2O MAN,
It's usually been $100-$125 "service call" fees, that's why I took the timer out and brought it to them. They stated if I brought the faulty equipment to them, they would repair it free of service charge since it's lifetime warranty. I'm sure they get a little kickback from rainsoft for warranty repairs, but I wouldn't mind throwing a little cash their way if need be. But to get under there and find out the last service call they removed parts and it's not working sort of bit my butt. I don't go in there guns blazing or acting like a idiot, I just want knowledge of the part's names and how it operates so I can effectively express my concerns. When I dropped it off last week I said the timer wasn't working, I'm sure the tech just plugged it in and saw the motor turning and called it done.

Still, isn't there something that meshes w/ the day/regeneration tabs? Right now nothing is touching it.
H2O MAN
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 08:04 am
@Hotwire,
Hotwire wrote:



Still, isn't there something that meshes w/ the day/regeneration tabs? Right now nothing is touching it.


Push all of the day pins in, then lift up only the days you want the system to regenerate.
If everything else was resembled correctly and working as it should the lifted pins initiate regeneration at the pre-set time.
Hotwire
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 08:54 am
@H2O MAN,
I understand how to set the days to regenerate and the current day, but I must not be conveying exactly what I'm seeing.

There's nothing even coming close to touching the tabs or the black gear/cog that the tabs sit in. The only thing touching or lined up to that assembly is the spindle it's attached to. There's no foot or pawl or anything to kick the gear/cog when the new day starts. Am I over looking the operation of it? Does the index lever somehow turn it?

There's a pin on top of the index lever fulcrum w/ a spot for a c-clip, isn't there supposed to be something there to hit the day gear/cog?
H2O MAN
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 10:01 am
@Hotwire,

The small purple spring is attached to the boxed lever that interacts with the black wheel the pins rest in.
The other end of the little purple spring attaches to the index lever, these two levers work together.

The RainSoft timer plate is a modified InterMatic timer plate, maybe you can find a schematic...

Hotwire
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 10:24 am
@H2O MAN,
Thanks for putting up with my ignorance, once I got back to the timer I figured out my question. There's a metal flag under the time of day wheel that pushes the black day wheel around when it reaches a new day, I feel pretty stupid. Smile Nothing abnormal if you ask my wife..

I talked w/ the owner, didn't even ask to the lady at the front desk, she looked up when I walked in, remembered my name, said oh no and directed me straight back to the owner's office. She asked for the timer, looked directly at the problem areas and knew exactly what the problem was. Without me saying anything she said she'd replace the index lever, the plastic gear that was chewed up, and something about a shear pin. She talked to me about the obsolete backlash pawl, said she looked around locally for someone to manufacture it, but it'd come to her around $6/ea, which is kinda steep. I'm assuming she was just asking for a small batch.

She directed me to the rainsoft website to get a manual, said the schematic was in the back of it, but she also wrote it down on a notecard and said she'd have one for me tomorrow when I came back for the timer.

I talked with her about a microcontroller solution I might be persuaded to put together with some guys here @ work, just swap out the contact switches with relays and figure out the timed events to trigger the relays, that would get rid of pretty much all the mechanical timer pieces. She was interested, also kinda cute, so I may continue on w/ the idea. Very Happy

I'm a private individual, not being paid for this, but if anyone is reading along and live near/around Greensboro, NC, I would highly recommend Triad Water Conditioning in Kernersville.: Edit (Moderator): URL Removed I'm thoroughly satisfied with my visit and can't wait to hit that stupid bypass valve and get my soft water back! Showers suck without it! H2OMan, thank you very much for your help and time, it is very much appreciated.

When I put the timer back on, should I set it to brine fill and plug it back in? How should the cams look when everything is done? I will ask Triad tomorrow if they have a valve body so I know exactly how it should look.

Thank you again!
H2O MAN
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 11:08 am
@Hotwire,
It sounds like Triad is willing to help you and that's a good thing.

There are plenty of anti backlash pawls available, it's the index lever that RS made obsolete long ago.
These are quite rare and valuable.

The shear pin is on the piston motor, when sheared the motor is unable to move the piston up or down.
If you have a sheared pin you need to replace the 3 large piston O rings and it's a good idea to replace the 2 tiny O rings on the brine injector while you are at it.

I'm just down I-85 in Athens, GA if you require additional help.

Good luck, Kevin
Hotwire
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 11:58 am
@H2O MAN,
Thanks Kevin. I have a buddy that lives down in Buford. Wish I had this problem earlier, I was just down there for the Year One Event, had a blast!

I went to pick up my timer and no one was there to talk to. I examined the nylon gear and it was exactly the same, the top end was chewed up. Am I correctly seeing that? The top 1/16-1/8" of the top gear of the nylon gear looks like it lost timing w/ the stainless gear it meshes with and the nylon has.. spooged out, basically being eaten up by the stainless teeth and mushrooming out of place. The tech there called me and said he put a new timer motor on, but I told him that's not the problem. I kept on going back to the nylon gear, but he said he replaced it with a new one. Either I'm looking at it wrong (probably like the day timer deal...) or I had the wrong timer in my hands. He agreed to hotwire (<-Heh) the timer and sit it on the receptionist's desk. He set it to the current time, we're going to see if it shows 9am when they get in tomorrow. I'm going to cheat and call the receptionist before she leaves @ 3. Smile I hate that I have to keep going back, when hopefully, it's just my ignorance. I just want to be able to throw that puppy in and take the bypass off, I'm serious about the suck showers, feels like your dirty after you've washed.

I also want to view a valve body in the "parked" state so I know exactly how to have my cams when I put it back together.

I talked with my coworker here about the microprocessor programming and setup to eliminate the mechanical timer, he's all over it. The only thing he's worried about is the crystal timer skew w/ temp changes. He's worried that the microprocessor will not keep accurate time. We're going to run some trials and see what we get.
Hotwire
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 11:22 am
@Hotwire,
OK, they had the timer plugged in, it ran the time out correctly. I got there, looked at it, had a completely different timer hooked up! That's why it was keeping time correctly! I went and talked w/ the guy that worked on my timer, he said he never touched the nylon gear, went and talked w/ the owner, she said, that's not his. Mine was sitting in her office. ...soooo, I have a totally different timer setup, but it's working, I'm not complaining. The tech also set my timer to the big yellow flag after fast rinse, said that would make the cams spin around back to the correct position no matter where they are now. Is that right?

I can't wait to hit the bypass valve tonight!
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2008 12:58 pm
@Hotwire,
Hotwire wrote:

OK, they had the timer plugged in, it ran the time out correctly. I got there, looked at it, had a completely different timer hooked up! That's why it was keeping time correctly! I went and talked w/ the guy that worked on my timer, he said he never touched the nylon gear, went and talked w/ the owner, she said, that's not his. Mine was sitting in her office. ...soooo, I have a totally different timer setup, but it's working, I'm not complaining. The tech also set my timer to the big yellow flag after fast rinse, said that would make the cams spin around back to the correct position no matter where they are now. Is that right?

I can't wait to hit the bypass valve tonight!


Interesting... Can you post a picture of the new timer they gave you?
0 Replies
 
Joethewaterguy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2009 06:02 pm
@Hotwire,
next time it messes up, get the new tc conversion. no more mechanical timer.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 07:11 am
@Joethewaterguy,



Please post details and pictures of this TC conversion.
Joethewaterguy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 02:52 pm
@H2O MAN,
I have a couple kits due in and will try to post pics, Joe
farmi29
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 01:23 am
@Joethewaterguy,
8 days ,14 days , Q-2 these my favorite takes 15 min to fix.
0 Replies
 
michael denard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2015 07:35 am
@H2O MAN,
Hello. Im responding to an old post but have a similar issue. I disassembled a Q series unit and neglected to mark the cam positions. Any chance you can send a diagram or explanation of the proper setup. Mike @ [email protected]
 

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