9
   

Is the world being destroyed?

 
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 09:54 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You choose this graph because it looks dramatic, not because it is an accurate description of what is actually happening.


FFS, stop ascribing your own explanations for other people's actions. I picked the second ******* graph because it extended back 2000 years.

Quote:

If you shut off your ideological need for outrage for a moment, this graph is interesting.

I have no need for "ideological" outrage and it's dishonest of you to constantly characterize my statements as such.

Quote:
It shows that population growth peaked at about 1960 and has been dramatically declining ever since.

Not where it needs to fall and nowhere near fast enough. When the baseline is over 7 billion people any annual growth rate is too much.

Quote:
That was the reason for the dramatic turn-around.

Wait until all the under 20-year-olds start propagating.



maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 10:02 am
1. Facts are objective because they are testable. For anything I state as a fact, I can (and will if asked) provide a some possible data that will disprove my fact. If you show me my this data, I will change my mind; and we have already had a couple of examples where I did change my mind.

If you can't tell me what data will change your mind, then your claim is not a fact.

2. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion or a conclusion. An opinion is something that is not testable, it may be backed by facts... but generally there is no set of facts that can get you to change your opinion.

3. I do not like when people confuse their opinions with facts. I also don't like when people deny facts just because they don't align with their opinion. I don't do this, and if there is a objective, testable fact, I will accept it (the key here is testable).

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 10:09 am
I am using the word "ideological" to make this point.

Smart people with different political ideologies will arrive at different conclusions. This is because although facts are objective, conclusions are not objective. A conclusion is an opinion.

I can judge a conclusion to be reasonable or unreasonable. My personal opinion is that it is ridiculous to claim that it is "inevitable" that Washington DC will be abandoned due to climate change. I suppose this is my subjective opinion, but I stand by it.

So when I talk an "ideological narrative" what I mean is that there is a set of opinions, speculations and stories that are being presented as fact. Predictions that we are facing "collapse" are a story rather a fact... there is no modeling that even defines what "collapse" would mean. It is speculation.

Again, there is nothing wrong with having an opinion. But it is not a fact and should not be specified as such.

The real problem is when to support the ideological narrative, people fabricate or deny facts.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 10:13 am
@hightor,
It is a fact that human population growth is falling significantly. Not only can you look at the data, but demographers will tell you why it is falling. (If you show me data where the growth rate is increasing from a reputable source, I will change my mind. This is a testable fact.).

Notice how difficult it is for Hightor to even accept this basic fact. He is still arguing.
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 11:01 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
It is a fact that human population growth is falling significantly.

That's because the rate has declined significantly in some countries, it doesn't mean that rates of growth have fallen universally. As I said, when the baseline is over 7 billion people any annual growth rate is too much. The population in Africa is expected to grow at over 2% annually over the next 25 years. Already, 77% of the African population is below the age of 35.

Quote:
For many decades the enormous populations of South America, Europe and Asia have grown quickly, but today they have slowed, and the majority of their populations are adults. In India the average age is 29, in China it is even older, at 37. But in Africa, the average age is 19 years old and rapidly getting younger. The continent is growing so quickly that by halfway through this century, it will be home to one billion children. By 2050, two in every five children in the world will be born here.

wef

Quote:

Notice how difficult it is for Hightor to even accept this basic fact.

I have no difficulty accepting the figures and have already said as much. But they don't paint a particularly sunny picture and could actually be used to rationalize complacency. As I said, the rate may be falling but not where it needs to fall and nowhere near fast enough. Meanwhile countries where the decline has dropped below the rate of replacement are actively cooking up schemes to increase birth rates.



maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 11:20 am
@hightor,
1) The population growth rate in Africa is falling as a continent, and even in the most impoverished region (Sub-Saharan Africa) the population growth rate is falling.

2) The population growth rate in Africa is significantly higher than most other parts of the world. You are factually correct in this (if that is what your point is).

Both of these are facts. They don't need to be explained away, emphasized, diminished or argued. They are simply facts. I accept them. You should too.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 11:26 am
@hightor,
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZfNl7bhfeSE/V0Qsk0qSsCI/AAAAAAAAF5U/cbI5xBR_wwUYnJsMGQTRoml6QENDZcYwACKgB/s1600/ourworldindata_world-population-growth-1750-2100.png

Your other statements are opinions. Whether this is a "sunny picture" or not is impossible to say. There is no standard for what makes a picture "sunny" and no way to test your assertion.

I look at this picture and see hope. We are, in fact, making great progress in decreasing the population growth rate to the point that a stable population is achievable in the future. This is clearly my own subjective opinion, I haven't what "great progress" means. It is just my impression, I don't state it as fact.

What is "reasonable" or "too much" or "hopeful" or "disastrous" is a matter of subjective judgement unless you define these terms in a way that we can test with the data.


maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 11:31 am
@maxdancona,
I learned something new today.

On reading about population growth I read about the "Demographic Transition". This is a temporary period of great population growth as a society makes the change to living with high mortality to living with low mortality. I found it interesting. You can read a pretty interesting article here...

https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth

I like it when I learn something new. I offer for anyone who is curious.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 11:51 am
@maxdancona,
If I remember correctly (my courses in gerontopsychology are decades ago), demographic transition is not a theory in the scientific sense, but a model description of population development.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2021 06:53 am
Earth’s tipping points could be closer than we think. Our current plans won’t work

Climate policies commit us to a calamitous 2.9C of global heating, but catastrophic changes can occur at even 1.5C or 2C

Quote:
If there’s one thing we know about climate breakdown, it’s that it will not be linear, smooth or gradual. Just as one continental plate might push beneath another in sudden fits and starts, causing periodic earthquakes and tsunamis, our atmospheric systems will absorb the stress for a while, then suddenly shift. Yet, everywhere, the programmes designed to avert it are linear, smooth and gradual.

Current plans to avoid catastrophe would work in a simple system like a washbasin, in which you can close the tap until the inflow is less than the outflow. But they are less likely to work in complex systems, such as the atmosphere, oceans and biosphere. Complex systems seek equilibrium. When they are pushed too far out of one equilibrium state, they can flip suddenly into another. A common property of complex systems is that it’s much easier to push them past a tipping point than to push them back. Once a transition has happened, it cannot realistically be reversed.

The old assumption that the Earth’s tipping points are a long way off is beginning to look unsafe. A recent paper warns that the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation – the system that distributes heat around the world and drives the Gulf Stream – may now be “close to a critical transition”. This circulation has flipped between “on” and “off” states several times in prehistory, plunging northern Europe and eastern North America into unbearable cold, heating the tropics, disrupting monsoons.

Other systems could also be approaching their thresholds: the West and East Antarctic ice sheets, the Amazon rainforest, and the Arctic tundra and boreal forests, which are rapidly losing the carbon they store, driving a spiral of further heating. Earth systems don’t stay in their boxes. If one flips into a different state, it could trigger the flipping of others. Sudden changes of state might be possible with just 1.5C or 2C of global heating.

A common sign that complex systems are approaching tipping points is rising volatility: they start to flicker. The extreme weather in 2021 – the heat domes, droughts, fires, floods and cyclones – is, frankly, terrifying. If Earth systems tip as a result of global heating, there will be little difference between taking inadequate action and taking no action at all. A miss is as good as a mile.

So the target that much of the world is now adopting for climate action – net zero by 2050 – begins to look neither rational nor safe. It’s true that our only hope of avoiding catastrophic climate breakdown is some variety of net zero. What this means is that greenhouse gases are reduced through a combination of decarbonising the economy and drawing down carbon dioxide that’s already in the atmosphere. It’s too late to hit the temperature targets in the Paris agreement without doing both. But there are two issues: speed and integrity. Many of the promises seem designed to be broken.

At its worst, net zero by 2050 is a device for shunting responsibility across both time and space. Those in power today seek to pass their liabilities to those in power tomorrow. Every industry seeks to pass the buck to another industry. Who is this magical someone else who will suck up their greenhouse gases?

Their plans rely on either technology or nature to absorb the carbon dioxide they want to keep producing. The technologies consist of carbon capture and storage (catching the carbon emissions from power stations and cement plants then burying them in geological strata), or direct air capture (sucking carbon dioxide out of the air and burying that too). But their large-scale use is described by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change as “subject to multiple feasibility and sustainability constraints”. They are unlikely to be deployed at scale in the future for the same reason that they’re not being deployed at scale today, despite 20 years of talk: technical and logistical barriers. Never mind: you can keep smoking, because one day they’ll find a cure for cancer.

So what’s left is nature: the capacity of the world’s living systems to absorb the gases we produce. As a report by ActionAid points out, there’s not enough land in the world to meet the promises to offset emissions that companies and governments have already made. Even those who own land want someone else to deal with their gases: in the UK, the National Farmers’ Union is aiming for net zero. But net zero commitments by other sectors work only if farmland goes sharply net negative. That means an end to livestock farming and the restoration of forests, peat bogs and other natural carbon sinks. Instead, a mythical other will also have to suck up emissions from farming: possibly landowners on Venus or Mars.

Even when all the promised technofixes and offsets are counted, current policies commit us to a calamitous 2.9C of global heating. To risk irreversible change by proceeding at such a leisurely pace, to rely on undelivered technologies and nonexistent capacities: this is a formula for catastrophe.

If Earth systems cross critical thresholds, everything we did and everything we were – the learning, the wisdom, the stories, the art, the politics, the love, the hate, the anger and the hope – will be reduced to stratigraphy. It’s not a smooth and linear transition we need. It’s a crash course.

guardian/monbiot
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2021 07:50 am
@hightor,
Do people need to die to save the planet?

This is a serious question; this article is talking about some sort of "crash", a radical change presumably to economics. The author doesn't specify what she means. Are we ending trade? Are we banning cars? If things are so drastic, then what exactly should we be giving up?

If we crash the economy, it is a fact that people will die. There is a direct correlation between GDP and mortality. Is that what we are talking about here?

If not, then what specifically are we being called to give up?
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2021 08:15 am
Let's try to be productive here. We all agree that Climate Change is a big problems. Rather than yelling hysterically about how bad it is, let's talk about how to address it.

1. I think we all agree that there needs to be international cooperation, particularly between the big powers (i.e. The US, China and Europe).

2. I believe that Technological fixes will be crucial, particularly in replacing fossil fuels with renewable energy. We should be investing more money into this technology.

3. We have a complex global economy which is spurring progress in increasing the human standard of living and advancing technological progress. Blowing up the economy is a bad idea.

4. We need to have a serious discussion about exactly what we are willing to give up... and what we are going to force developing countries to give up. There will need to be sacrifice. This should be shared sacrificed and exactly what is being asked should be specified up front.

I personally would like to see higher energy costs. This would hurt me some, I consider myself comfortably in the upper-middle class. I don't want to give up things like education for my children, or lessen my ability for health, and I certainly don't want to give up my career.

I am willing to give up certain things... I expect I will travel less (when costs are raised), some things won't hurt very much (I love working from home). And, I don't mind a fairly significant tax hike on myself if it is done fairly.

But spell it out. We need to do something drastic.... just tell me exactly what you are asking?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2021 09:05 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The author doesn't specify what she means. Are we ending trade? Are we banning cars? If things are so drastic, then what exactly should we be giving up?
Obviously you didn't actually read the link and what the author wrote*:
a) George Monbiot is a male, which you could have easily got by his pre-name and photo,
b) it's an opinion, It is an "opinion"* about "climate crisis" not a guide or instruction about how to tackle the crisis.

* published in print today on page 2 of The Guardian Magazine (and online linked above)
Quote:
https://i.imgur.com/zk3koID.jpg
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2021 09:16 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I read what Hightor quoted (I didn't have to follow the link). You are being petty.

My criticism is valid. There is this hysterical narrative that Global Warming is worse than you think with "tipping points" and "existential crisis".

If you are going to say "It is really bad, we need to do something drastic", then I think you should tell me what you mean by "drastic". Do people need to die to save the planet? Do we need to cause major disruptions to the global economy?

"It's really bad! We need to do something drastic now! is not a reasonable message.

Exactly what are we talking about here? (I think this is a fair question.)
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2021 09:17 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
We need to do something drastic.... just tell me exactly what you are asking?


Um, I didn't write the article. I'm not asking anything.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2021 09:18 am
@hightor,
I am asking,

What exactly do you think we should do? What are you willing to give up to save the planet?
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2021 09:28 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
What exactly do you think we should do?


I have no idea. Nor would it matter if I did as I am totally insignificant, a mere one eight billionth of the human population, with no experience in foreign policy, barely any social skills, and lacking the self-confidence and ego which might prompt me to recommend any solutions, if I even thought there were any.

Quote:
What are you willing to give up to save the planet?

The planet isn't in danger.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2021 09:30 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I read what Hightor quoted (I didn't have to follow the link). You are being petty.

My criticism is valid.
You criticised an author by changing his sex and asking hightor questions about this opinion, which you didn't read and he hadn't written - that's what you call "valid"?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2021 09:51 am
The message here is Things are really bad! We need to do something drastic.

A reasonable message will

1. Describe the specific steps we need to take to solve the problem. This will detail what needs to be done, and who needs to do it.

2. Describe the costs of the solution; what will you sacrifice, what you will ask other people to sacrifice. What will the consequences be?

In addition, you also need to describe a political process (because we live in human societies... and humans aren't robots). There needs to be a process of compromise and a way to get acceptance across societies.

What we have here is panic; an exaggerated fear with no solutions offered and no way to reach them.
Walter Hinteler
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2021 10:07 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The message here is Things are really bad! We need to do something drastic.

A reasonable message will ...
Again: that article is an opinion. And an opinion is an article that presents the newspaper's opinion on an issue. Immediate purpose of an opinion is to get readers to see the problem, not the solution.
0 Replies
 
 

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