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Is the world being destroyed?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 03:31 am
@hightor,
And the world isn't just only the USA or Europe. (While the population in Asia, which has many economically underdeveloped countries, is increasing exponentially, the population in Europe, where many of the countries are economically developed, is growing much more slowly.)
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 03:43 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Good point. Humans as a whole retain the reproductive capability for exponential population growth and that rate of growth is still found in some areas of the world.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 03:58 am
What’s Coming Next in Climate Collapse

Regional systemic failure is here

Quote:
Hurricane Ida should have been America’s wake up call.

Climate collapse won’t be restricted to a single threat nor will it hit everyone at the same time in some distant future.

Regional systemic collapse is a cascade of overlapping events, seemingly disparate, but each contributing to the failure of the area to recover.

It’s here now.

The catastrophes combine and manifest as multiple failures, each crisis compounding the other until a demoralized populace as well as government officials find responding no longer desirable, financially feasible, or even possible. Basically, so much goes wrong — and keeps going wrong — that everyone gives up.

Regional system failure can occur when repeat disasters such as weather events destroy already weakened infrastructure. Resources are further strained. Recovery can’t happen fast enough and the area collapses.

Let’s call it “infrastructure weak”

It’s no secret that America has been relying on an aging infrastructure to keep commerce moving.

Many of the post WWII projects of roads, bridges, railways, and ports have not been adequately maintained nor improved. The nation’s vulnerable electrical grid garners the most attention, but few realize that there are 10,000 miles of levees where the location and condition are unknown. That is a frightening fact in light of expected flooding from climate collapse.

After the next weather event slams into a region, addressing these numerous deficiencies will become an emergency and much more difficult.

If we didn’t see value in maintaining this infrastructure in good times, the question becomes whether it is worth it at all.

If left unchecked, the economy of the region will be crippled because commerce cannot continue, and then recovery is further delayed or abandoned. Jobs are lost, homes foreclosed, families evicted. Eventually, the region may become uninhabitable or the remaining residents live in a constant state of disruption without the conveniences of modern life.

Those who can migrate out of the region will do so, and at great personal cost, taking with them money and jobs — and the sort of political clout to demand a fix to the problems. Much could be saved if these migrations occurred before the failures.

On a national level, federal officials tasked with the recovery effort will find themselves triaging competing regional failures — whether the raging California wildfires deserve more resources than flooding in the northeast or drought in the southwest.

Hurricane Ida and her friends pay a visit

We may have our first glimpse of what a national systemic failure might look like as the country grapples with increasing fallout from extreme weather this summer.

Hurricane Ida proved to be a deadly storm, its 150 mph winds ripped through Louisiana and spawned a tornado in New Jersey while flooding low lying areas as far away as New York. It was a 1,500-mile **** storm exposing our weakness in a fight against Mother Nature and she is kicking our ass.

In years past, when society was more stable, these types of events still wreaked havoc, but officials responded swiftly to begin the slow process of recovery. When the disaster was over, it was over. Then we rebuilt.

Perhaps we shouldn’t.

In the aftermath of Ida, it may take months to resurrect the power grid because the region never fully recovered from previous storms. Regional systemic failure can take years or decades to be fully realized. The seeds of Louisiana’s failure were planted 15 years ago.

In 2020, hurricane Laura destroyed transmission lines, which required crews abandon improvements to the aging system to address Ida’s power outages. But that was only a drop in the proverbial bucket.

The region still grapples to undo $2 billion in damage from three storms in earlier years. But the failures stretch back even further, all the way to August, 2005.

Louisiana never fully recovered after the devastation of Hurricane Katrina. Instead of consulting with climate experts on the feasibility of rebuilding, officials moved forward with a $15 billion federal levee. Much like today, climate scientists were ignored.

In the steady march toward failure, the next weather event may usher in further destruction, and that may be the disaster where there is no recovery.

We know there will be a next time. Hurricane Larry is out in the Atlantic, the third major storm this season. Experts say it won’t be the last.

And storms are only one disaster impacting recovery.

Putting the systemic in failure

A pandemic overwhelms hospitals. A strained supply chain creates shortages in needed supplies. Trucking delays stretch out the recovery time frame from weeks to months. Emergency responders are now in a marathon to address the most pressing crisis before the next disaster strikes.

We are now reacting to a series of events without the luxury of planning to mitigate a future crisis. And why would we if we never took the opportunity in the past? If it wasn’t worth it then, maybe we should question whether it is the best option now.

Rising sea levels have been predicted for decades and severe Atlantic storms come as no surprise to Gulf states. Yet we continue to fight this losing battle in a region beset with disasters with no hope for a happy ending.

No one wants to talk about whether we should abandon areas like New Orleans that are experiencing this sort of systemic failure.

Instead, we slowly rebuild infrastructure in places like Miami, Fort Lauderdale and even Washington DC even though we will inevitably abandon these communities. It’s difficult to consider letting these areas fall into ruin now despite knowing what they will become in the next 20 or 30 years.

We have no long term, comprehensive plan to relocate communities of people that are unsustainable. We don’t even acknowledge the reality of it happening. Instead, we pour resources into rebuilding, throwing good money after bad.

We muzzled our scientists because no one wanted to admit that everyone living in the Florida Keys were screwed. The suggested course of action is often too painful to consider even though the same experts have been remarkably prescient in their warnings.

Besides, we are too busy addressing emergencies to plan for the future.

In the wake of Ida, the need to restore power to Louisiana’s hospitals overrides the discussion of whether we should be treating COVID patients in a known disaster area. The dynamic repeats through other regional failures. The demand to stop a California wildfire threatening hundreds of homes trumps the debate on whether we should allow rebuilding in disaster areas. Locals demand recovery even when it does not make sense for the long term viability of the area.

The science has been turned into a political football. The experts are sidelined, their proposed solutions too bitter to swallow. No one wants to consider whether we should move our nation’s capital further inland, but this is a discussion we should be having now.

Ignoring the alarms from scientists, and turning a blind eye to systemic failure, people flock to buy expensive real estate in areas under the greatest threat from climate change — places like Las Vegas where the average home price has increased 21.4% in the past year, according to Zillow.

What happens when the disaster gets too big?


It may be impossible to find long term solutions to areas doomed to systemic failure. The size of the catastrophe could be unmanageable. Forced migration may be the only alternative, a proposal no politician will entertain.

Already brewing is one such insurmountable problem — the drought in the southwest.

Lake Mead, the nation’s largest man made reservoir, is sitting at 36% capacity and expected to drop another 20 feet before 2022.

It may never be full again.

With 25 million people dependent on the dwindling water from the Colorado River system, Mead is developing into a catalyst for regional systemic failure due to an intractable drought.

Las Vegas has a population larger than all of Vermont and gets 90% of its water from the Colorado River. The city has conservation efforts in place such as returning reclaimed water to the reservoir but it’s not enough. The issue is the number of people moving into the region which is not being addressed. The Las Vegas area is expected to grow from 2.4 million to over 3 million residents by 2035, according to the Center for Business and Economic Research at the University of Nevada.

It seems that climate change denial is a shared delusion by individuals as well as entire communities.

The Lake Mead reservoir has nearly reached “dead pool”, so low it can no longer generate electricity. Alarm bells should have been ringing long before now. Before the drought and potential loss of power generation at Mead, the economy was taking a beating. Vegas tourism has experienced a 55% drop thanks to COVID, a pandemic which is still out of control for the near future.

Regional systemic failure has begun, yet no one is taking steps to address it. The tough question we should ask our scientists is if we should make long term plans to reduce the population of the area.

No one asks because we don’t want to hear the answer.

The disasters in the region now overlap — climate, economic, health, unsustainable growth. It wouldn’t take much to push the “entertainment capital of the world” off a cliff — an earthquake, terrorist attack, or wildfire are strong contenders for a black swan event. Given enough time, something will occur, so the question becomes whether officials can solve any one crisis before the next event hits.

The scope of the problem is unimaginable. The only viable solution appears to be degrowth and relocation, or at minimum limiting people coming into the region with an eye toward easing into a reduction of the population to more sustainable levels. Instead, Las Vegas city officials are looking into ways to drain Lake Mead further to quench the thirst of future development.

No one asks what happens when it’s empty.

Those people ultimately displaced will go elsewhere, an unplanned migration which creates problems in other communities.

The next crisis doesn’t have to be particularly dramatic, nor does it have to cause widespread damage, but only large enough to cripple a region for weeks or even months. If it hits in an area already dealing with destruction, it could render the crisis as a permanent fixture — leaving surrounding areas also vulnerable to collapse. The region could become a literal “disaster area” that never recovers.

This is regional systemic failure and it is here now. The question is whether we will address it.

medium.com
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 05:06 am
@hightor,
thats true, the timeline can easily define the growth pattern. There are rules mostly established in bacteriology in which the growth stages are measured and characterized from the beginning of an entire phase. We have about 4 growth phases in bactee.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 06:21 am
Farmerman, I can't believe that we are arguing over elementary school math. But here we are. This is an example of how an ideological narrative can keep you from accepting the most basic mathematical facts.

Here are the facts.

1) A population with exponential growth will experience a constant growth rate (this is the mathematical definition of exponential growth).

2) For the human population, the growth rate is far from constant. In fact it has been decreasing dramatically in the past 70 years.

Which of these two basic facts of mathematics are you having a problem with?
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 06:28 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

And the world isn't just only the USA or Europe. (While the population in Asia, which has many economically underdeveloped countries, is increasing exponentially, the population in Europe, where many of the countries are economically developed, is growing much more slowly.)


Walter, this is also mathematically incorrect. The population in Asia is also not increasing exponentially. I just looked around, I don't think there is even a single country in Asia that is experiencing exponential growth, not Bangladesh, not Cambodia not Korea.

You just made this up because you are arguing an ideological narrative. It isn't true... and clearly you didn't even check before you posted this.

maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 06:45 am
Let's review the human population growth rate discussion. It is instructive on how the ideological narrative functions and how basic facts suffer.

1) A political argument makes the argument that the global population is growing exponentially (it isn't).

2) When that doesn't work, hightor states emphatically that the global population may not be exponential now, but was growing exponentially in "past few centuries" (it was not)

3) Walter states emphatically that the global in Asia is growing exponentially (which it isn't).

These are basic facts that anyone can check. Just google "population growth rate Cambodia", if the population growth rate is going down year after year, it isn't exponential. I was able to find a single country (Somalia) with a close to constant growth rate over the past decade.

But the key part here is that They can't seem to accept a basic fact that contradicts their ideological narrative. And this is a very basic fact with a clear answer that is easy to check.

They are proving my point about the ideological narrative.
Walter Hinteler
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 06:56 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Walter, this is also mathematically incorrect. The population in Asia is also not increasing exponentially. I just looked around, I don't think there is even a single country in Asia that is experiencing exponential growth, not Bangladesh, not Cambodia not Korea.

You just made this up because you are arguing an ideological narrative. It isn't true... and clearly you didn't even check before you posted this.

What I do hate is when someone accuses me of something he/she can't know - or do you have a secret spy camera to watch me, max?

Growth rates are falling in many Asian countries, but, even so, according to the United Nation's report, it is estimated that the continent’s population will exceed five billion by 2050m = an increase of more than two-fifths from its estimated population in 2000.

I suggest that you look up the population of India, for instance, and the Pacific countries' ... (and as a gimmick: Lebanon).
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 07:10 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter,

Are you capable of accepting any fact that doesn't fit into your ideological narrative? These are basic facts that are easy to check. Why can't you just accept them?

1. You first made the claim that the "population in Asia... is rising exponentially". That is factually incorrect (and is easy to confirm).

2) Now you are suggesting India is exponential. It is not even close. Here is the data... https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IND/india/population-growth-rate

3) And Lebanon? If you bothered to check, you would know that the population growth is negative (the population in Lebanon is decreasing). Also not exponential.

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/LBN/lebanon/population-growth-rate#:~:text=Lebanon%20-%20Historical%20Population%20Growth%20Rate%20Data%20,%20%200.59%25%20%2068%20more%20rows%20

These are basic facts. Rather than checking them, you are just making stuff up.

0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 07:52 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Let's review the human population growth rate discussion.

Why? So you can derail the discussion? You trashed the study about the extinction risk of Mesoamerican CWR because of you objected to one sentence about "exponential" population growth.
Quote:
1) A political argument makes the argument that the global population is growing exponentially (it isn't).

That's not a "political argument". It's a simple statement about the rate of growth which may be right or may be wrong. In this case it's technically wrong. That doesn't make it "political". In fact, it's a very common usage of the term
Quote:
2) When that doesn't work, hightor states emphatically that the global population may not be exponential now, but was growing exponentially in "past few centuries" (it was not)

Like "decimate", and many other words, "exponential", has a technical definition and another non-mathematical meaning in popular use. Here's the graph we're all familiar with – it's actually labeled "Exponential growth curve of Human population":
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-kygRabQYuM4%2FWDju_BRXyHI%2FAAAAAAAAAEM%2FqMkMrddF_dsJ_Ac0ddbeGOBrelDGWGwoQCLcB%2Fs1600%2Fexponential.png&f=1&nofb=1
Here the term "exponential" refers to the steep climb in the past 200 years. It means "rampant". And no, it doesn't illustrate the technical meaning of "exponential" as used by scientists.
Quote:
But the key part here is that They can't seem to accept a basic fact that contradicts their ideological narrative.

This is where you're wrong. I'm very happy to correct my usage of the term "exponential growth" going forward. I won't use that term any longer when I mean rampant, aggressive, viral, or epidemic. Thank you for providing a learning experience. But the mathematical definition of the word and its technically erroneous use doesn't contradict anyone's "ideological narrative©". I doubt any of our political convictions are fueled by the rate of population growth in Southeast Asia or the "real" meaning of "exponential". Learning the truth about either of these doesn't change one thing about the deleterious effects that the rapid expansion of the human population has had on the biological world.

maxdancona is simply hiding behind a technicality and declaring victory to protect his "ideological narrative©"! So now maybe he'll comment on the extinction risk of Mesoamerican CWR. But I doubt it.


maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 08:01 am
@hightor,
Good. Although I wish you would have started with "I won't use that term [incorrectly] any longer". If you would have started there this (instead of doubling down with more incorrect claims) then this would have been a shorter tangent.

The fact that the human population growth rate is dramatically falling in most countries is rather important. And, it is good news (although I realize you don't like good news).

But yes.. if we all agree that the growth rate of human population is not exponential... then we can move on.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 08:03 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:

Which of these two basic facts of mathematics are you having a problem with

You say that you are a physicist. Exponential growth as established in bio, came from growth of bacteria. where, within a dish or reticle, the growth ppattern was defined for a given time and was s a "power series" where , say, the starting mass was at 100 colonies and grew as function of the exponent of the base 10.
THATS A FACT JACK. exponential can b easily converted to LOGARITHMIC and its only on semi-log paper here an exponential growth pattern describes a straight line.

PS you were also wrong about the amount of sea level rise were all the ice sheets fully melted. You seemed to be dealing with decennial numbers and I was talking TOTAL numbers.

Im not interested enough to keep you fed with attention.

maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 08:05 am
@hightor,
Your next article painted an apocalyptic vision where Washington DC is abandoned. Obviously I can't fact check this rather extreme speculation.

However, other claims, including the claim that Lake Mead is near the point that it can no longer produce power, are factually incorrect. Of course, you can argue what "near" means... but the current water level is significantly higher than the minimum reached in 2016.

Again, this is making up fictional claims to make an extreme ideological point.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 08:08 am
@farmerman,
Farmerman, you are being silly. This is fifth grade math.

1) Exponential growth by definition means a constant growth rate.
2) The human population growth is not constant (in fact it is decreasing significantly).

This means that factually (and quite simply) that human population growth is not exponential.

Which of these two basic points are you having problems with? Even Hightor has given up on this mathematical point.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 08:08 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
And no, it doesn't illustrate the technical meaning of "exponential" as used by scientists.
I think that's trap I've fallen in again: different use of word(s) in German and English.
In German, the word for science is used in a way that includes the humanities, social sciences, theology ...
My lectureship at the university was in "Social Work Sciences".
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 08:11 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Can we all just accept the simple fact.

By the mathematical/scientific definition of the English word "exponential"... the human population growth rate is not exponential. Do we all accept that the growth rate of human population is falling significantly.

If we can just agree on basic facts, this thread will be a little less silly.
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 08:26 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Again, this is making up fictional claims to make an extreme ideological point.

It's not "ideological" to look at the rate of water use in the West, look at the expanding population of the West, and looks at the drought conditions in the West and conclude the the outlook for the dam's functioning as a source of power and water for drinking and irrigation is highly uncertain.
Quote:
Of course, you can argue what "near" means... but the current water level is significantly higher than the minimum reached in 2016.

And it's reached those low points twice in the past five years. I think that's cause for some concern.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 08:33 am
BTW, while I was reading about population growth there was one fact which was interesting and which I subsequently lost track of; it was about countries with large proportions of their populations below twenty years of age. These are the countries most likely to suffer the effects of overpopulation in the future. Makes sense, and might be a good biometric to have on hand.

I also found this graph which I think is more helpful at seeing poulation growth in historical perspective:

https://populationeducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/human-population-growth-j-curve-768x679.jpg
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 08:35 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Do we all accept that the growth rate of human population is falling significantly.

Not where it needs to fall and nowhere near fast enough.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2021 08:55 am
@hightor,
You choose this graph because it looks dramatic, not because it is an accurate description of what is actually happening. I do not believe this graph is close to mathematically correct, and even if it is... it is not showing what is really happening.

Let's look at a more informative graph...

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZfNl7bhfeSE/V0Qsk0qSsCI/AAAAAAAAF5U/cbI5xBR_wwUYnJsMGQTRoml6QENDZcYwACKgB/s1600/ourworldindata_world-population-growth-1750-2100.png

If you shut off your ideological need for outrage for a moment, this graph is interesting. It shows that population growth peaked at about 1960 and has been dramatically declining ever since.

The projection assumes that the growth rate will continue to decline. This is a reasonable assumption given that the trends causing this decline are continuing.

Ironically, if there is an apocalyptic climate disaster with disease and famine (as some here seem to be predicting, the population growth will be even lower than this graph indicates.

The reason for the dramatic population growth up until 1960 was increasing global prosperity. People weren't having more kids during this time, we were just keeping them alive. When food was plentiful, clean water became widely available and we started curing diseases even in developing countries, that is when population rocketed.

In 1960 we started pushing family planning efforts and the US worked in national development (particularly woman's rights). That was the reason for the dramatic turn-around.
 

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