31
   

ATHEISTS ONLY

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 03:09 am
Ah yes, invincible ignorance. If you've not heard of it, it can't be true.

Quote:
Genetic testing supports some Lemba oral traditions related to origin in the Middle East. A genetic study in 1996 of 49 Lemba males suggested that more than 50% of the Lemba Y-chromosomes are West Asian in origin, shared by Arabs and Jews.

To define the people's origin more specifically, Parfitt and others developed a larger study to compare additional Lemba subjects (for whom clans were recorded) with males from South Arabia and Africa, as well as Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews. They found significant similarities between the markers of the Lemba and men of the Ḥaḍramawt in Yemen. They also learned that the population in Yemen was relatively recent, so would not have shared common ancestors with those of the Lemba.

A subsequent study in 2000 found that a substantial number of Lemba men carry a particular haplotype of the Y-chromosome known as the Cohen modal haplotype (CMH), as well as a haplogroup of Y-DNA Haplogroup J found among some Jews, but also in other populations across the Middle East and Arabia. The genetic studies have suggested that there is no Semitic female contribution to the Lemba gene pool. This indicates that Israelite men migrated to Africa in ancient times and took wives from among the local people after settling in new communities.

Among Jews the CMH marker is most prevalent among Kohanim, or hereditary priests. As recounted in Lemba oral tradition, the ancestor of the Buba clan "had a leadership role in bringing the Lemba out of Israel" and eventually into Southern Africa.
The genetic study found that 50% of the males in the Buba clan had the Cohen marker, a proportion higher than in the general Jewish population. While not defining the Lemba as Jews, the genetic results confirm the oral accounts of ancestral males originating from outside Africa, and specifically from southern Arabia.


Emphasis has been added, obviously. Source. Go ahead and quibble about the specific accuracy of these genetic studies. I'll be happy to ignore you.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 04:04 am
I think the problem comes in when people try to claim that a sub-population's genetic uniqueness, which is always fractional, gives them some sort of innate inferiority or even guilt for something their ancestors did.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 04:08 am
@FBM,
Or innate superiority. My point was not about Jews per se, it was about the spread, first of Judaism, and then of Christianity, through the agency of Aramaeans, and other Aramaic-speaking peoples.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 04:10 am
By the way, claims of innate superiority (or of the inferiority of others) are a part of my beef with organized religions. I have few problems with Judaism, precisely because they don't wake me up at 8:00 am on Saturday, pounding on the door, and i don't have worry about Jewish suicide bombers when i go to market.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 04:12 am
@Setanta,
Oh, yeah, definitely innate superiority, too. Two sides of the same coin, really.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 06:22 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
It's utterly absurd to speak of "Jewish DNA" as if there were some gene pool, or worse, some race that distinguishes "Jews" from other peoples.

Setanta can speak for himself, but I don't think he would mind if you changed "Jewish DNA" to "Aramaic DNA". And yes, you can usually make pretty safe bets on people's ethnicity when you know their DNA.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 06:27 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
I think the problem comes in when people try to claim that a sub-population's genetic uniqueness, which is always fractional, gives them some sort of innate inferiority or even guilt for something their ancestors did.

Just because a forensic finding causes trouble with people's identity politics, that doesn't make it untrue. Setanta's only claim is that you can find, in the DNA of indigenous South Africans, evidence of Aramaic heritage. (He said "Jewish DNA", but that's just a semantic difference.) How people feel about this heritage doesn't change the fact that it's there.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 06:30 am
@Thomas,
But I didn't say the DNA evidence was untrue. I just said that linking that evidence to claims of inherent superiority and/or inferiority is faulty logic.
Thomas
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 06:33 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
But I didn't say the DNA evidence was untrue. I just said that linking that evidence to claims of inherent superiority and/or inferiority is faulty logic.

It's a good thing, then, that Setanta didn't link it with that in the post you were responding to.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 06:42 am
@Thomas,
As my students so often say, "I am not understanding." I don't see Set linking genetics and innate superiority/inferiority. What am I missing? Explain, please?
thack45
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 07:55 am
Saw this on FB.. a real gem of understanding a graceful faith


https://fbcdn-photos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpt1/v/t1.0-0/1912373_602472503160182_1786123672_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=21c372ffbc998fe725ba958fb0eccf0c&oe=55F8B857&__gda__=1438680926_5c2942298b538a3fc5921936ab2035be
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 08:55 am
I've been searching for meaning in life.

I knew it involved crispy bacon and celery.

Beyond that I was unsure.

Until today.

http://www.tastingtable.com/cook/recipes/stuffed-celery-appetizer-recipe-bacon-scallion-cream-cheese

http://prodstatics3cdn1.tastingtable.com/images/articles/2015_03/Feature-Image-Ashely-Christensen-Poole_s-Diner-Raleigh-North-Carolina-Southern-Food-Month-Brunch-Recipes.jpg
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 09:12 am
@Setanta,
I am thoroughly familiar with these genetic studies, this poster's imbecilic assumptions notwithstanding.

There is absolutely nothing in the encyclopedia entry that he cites that supports the asinine assertion that there is "Jewish DNA" let alone that it is found among tribesmen in South Africa. It refers to the so called Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH) as an "indicator of Jewish ancestry," which itself is a misrepresentation of this haplotype's significance. CMH, which some of these South African tribesmen exhibit to a greater degree than the general Jewish population itself, is a haplotype that is found in populations throughout the Middle East and isn't exclusively "Jewish."

Religion isn't genetic, stupidly specious conclusions notwithstanding.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 09:55 am
@InfraBlue,
not exactly true. Specific STR markers (Short tandem repeat alleles) are present in many populations including Ashkenazi Jews(Any population that has tended to remain in a spot for 20 or more generations can show loci for these specific STR's.
Such techniques are a mature forensic tool.
If the poster meant full on genomes, No of course not.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 09:58 am
@InfraBlue,
"haplotypes are not speciric to religious groups and cultures, they show the primary geographic distribution of the population in areas. We can define haplotypic founder populations and their contribution to a regions "mix" .(Like ENgland, where we can actually look at the approximate populational origins that go WAAAY back.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 10:07 am
Yeah, one thing is a region's mix, another thing entirely is the perposterous idea of religious DNA.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 01:09 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
As my students so often say, "I am not understanding." I don't see Set linking genetics and innate superiority/inferiority. What am I missing? Explain, please?

My bad. I had you and InfraBlue mixed up in my mind. Sorry!
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 03:03 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
I'm willing to bet that the majority of slaves brought over from Africa weren't Christians.

Indeed, most were animist, with a few Musils I suppose (eg from nowadays Senegal).
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 03:37 pm
@ossobuco,
The Ethiopian monarchs once ruled pretty much the entire Horn of Africa, including Eritrea, through a feudal system of lords and overlords. That's why the Negus was called the 'king of kings'. The system was unstable with peripheral Muslims fiefdoms frequently rebelling against the Christian emperors.

During the scramble for Africa, Ethiopia could resist European powers (namely Italy), and managed to remain independent (the only African country which did so). But the powers still grabbed the coastline: Somalia for the Italians and the British, Djibouti for the French, and Eritrea for the Italians. After WW2, Eritrea was given back to Ethiopia but they lost it again in the independence war you talked about. There's a lot of tension between those two countries still.

I like Ethiopian food too, bizarre but tasty.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  4  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 04:28 pm
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/42/42/90/4242900958f9972d35c506b97a0daf8a.jpg
 

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