Lash
 
  3  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 09:08 am
@Frank Apisa,
Marry who you love or the one you feel more assured will say yes? Gross. What have you achieved?

An authentic progressive would be working for the only authentic progressive in the race. Period.

I can't imagine how standing up for your values hurts the term liberal. As the country watches Clintonite and corporate Democrats abandon the man who is standing up for what they pretend to believe in - no more damage can possibly be done to the terms liberal and progressive, and more importantly the pretenders in the Democrat party are proving they really don't have those idealistic goals that they've been given credit for for decades.

Patiently educate people about the "socialist" aspects we love about our country. Take back the term liberal as it applies to your political or social beliefs. Form relationships with people who believe differently and make sense with them. This is how change happens. Not by cold calculations and cowtowing.


Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 09:23 am
@Real Music,
Deserves repeat. I agree. Just like people here said the country wasn't ready for a black president... The time is right.

Quote:
Yes, for a period of time, liberals/progressives FEARED moving to the left because they felt they would lose elections. For a period of time that was probably true. The country as a whole was moving to the right for an extended period of years. The only reason a democrat Bill Clinton was able to win the presidency was because he moved to the right of the center. I disagree with you regarding where the country as a whole is currently. I also disagree with you in regard to the ideological trend the country is headed. Lately, I've noticed democrats embracing progressive/liberal ideas more and more. For the most part they are no longer running from their liberal ideology. They appear to be showing less fear of promoting their liberal ideas. It would stand to reason that if you no longer are running from liberalism you probably now believe you can win on those principals. It also stands to reason that if you are now beginning to embrace progressive ideology, you probably believe you can win on those principals. I can only conclude that democrats now feel they can win on liberal/progressive ideals because they believe the country as a whole has recently started moving to the left. That is what I mean when I stated the Democratic party is now reversing their rightward trend and has lately been trending leftward. Yes, I definitely lean left, sometimes far left, when it's regarding POCKETBOOK ISSUES. Non pocketbook issues, my ideology may vary left, right, and center.
0 Replies
 
nydia2013
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 09:24 am
@snood,
Quote:


Well, Ed, remember Obama's support in his first campaign for president didn't really get strong until after he won the Iowa primary. That's when a lot of people (including me) started believing.



Yes, that too, was when I began to feel Obama had a stronger chance than earlier; clearly seeing that Iowa is 91% white and voted for Obama over white candidates, I began to believe he had an equal chance at the prize.
0 Replies
 
nydia2013
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 09:49 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
I love Sanders. If I thought he could win it all, I would switch my support to him.


I, too "love Sanders." His political program reminds me of Karl Marx, a socialist ideology that the America establishment will reject. America is becoming more liberal when it comes to social matters, but when it comes to fiscal or matters relating to public revenue/treasury it's another matter with the Republicans threatening to cut Entitlements. They have cut grants to schools, hospitals, etc, and they're still at it. Cuts are being felt throughout America and hits the poor and middle class very hard. Sanders would have to be a magician in order to overcome the Republican/Tea Party barriers.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 10:15 am
@nydia2013,
I think this is the primary reason Bernie is packing every venue he speaks at. People are finally realizing how they've been used as serfs to enrich people at the very top of the food chain in the US. They ask US to take pay cuts and lose benefits so they can give MORE tax breaks to billionaires.

It's over.
The world just changed.
The more people who hear Bernie's message about the actual percentages of income and who's who on the US economic food chain - the more Bernie voters are created.
We have hard evidence that social liberalism has arrived.
The economic sister is arriving.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 10:42 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Marry who you love or the one you feel more assured will say yes? Gross. What have you achieved?

An authentic progressive would be working for the only authentic progressive in the race. Period.


Not if the progressive thought doing so would do more damage to a progressive agenda than not doing so.

That is the part you just cannot get.


Quote:
I can't imagine how standing up for your values hurts the term liberal. As the country watches Clintonite and corporate Democrats abandon the man who is standing up for what they pretend to believe in - no more damage can possibly be done to the terms liberal and progressive, and more importantly the pretenders in the Democrat party are proving they really don't have those idealistic goals that they've been given credit for for decades.


Yeah...and they seem unable to leap tall buildings with a single bound.

Stand up for your values. But if that means tossing what looks like a potential winner off the ticket in favor of what looks like a potential loser...you are not doing your values any good.


Patiently educate people about the "socialist" aspects we love about our country. Take back the term liberal as it applies to your political or social beliefs. Form relationships with people who believe differently and make sense with them. This is how change happens. Not by cold calculations and cowtowing.

And dream the impossible dream!

Being realistic is not kowtowing. It is being realistic.

You ought to give it a try.




[/quote]
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 10:51 am
@Frank Apisa,
So marry the one who'll say yes.

I'm going for passion.

They used to say Republicans get in line; Democrats fall in love.
I call bullshit on that noise.

Get in your Hillary line.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 10:54 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

So marry the one who'll say yes.

I'm going for passion.

They used to say Republicans get in line; Democrats fall in love.
I call bullshit on that noise.

Get in your Hillary line.





I'll get where I want to get...not where you order me to get, Lash.

Go for passion. The Republicans did that with Barry Goldwater.

How'd that work out?
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 11:27 am
@Lash,
Lash sweety, the last thing I do is cower in a corner. I am liberal. Probably as liberal as anyone on this site. But I am also living in todays world and recognize things as they are. Its wonderful to say Bernie has the exact ideas I love and want. BUT Bernie cant be elected because of the attitude of a majority of the citizens in the U S. Too many are afraid of liberal/communist government. The one thing I am afraid of is a Republican President who will once again pack the Supreme Court with Republican judges that will give big business and billionairs even more power over us surf's than they already have. Your a plant, admit it. In all the time you have been on this site you have been an ultra conservative and you want me and others to believe you have suddenly seen the light. Horse pucky!!
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 11:37 am
If Bernie catches on fire with the public the way I am hoping for, he will get a cross section of votes, not only liberals. Attacking lash is totally beside the point. She hasn't the power to turn the election for or against Bernie. I am willing to accept her position at face value.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 01:12 pm
@RABEL222,
Ultimately, it doesn't matter what you think about me. I'm glad I'm not invested in changing anybody's mind about that.

I've never been an ultra-conservative, though I have espoused many conservative policies and candidates. Many times, for little more reason than to break up what I felt strongly was a brick of groupthink here, I'd challenge some ideas.

I've learned a great deal about politics and myself as a member here, largely due to what must have felt like the excruciating patience of a few key members. Probably my greatest leap of opinion came when someone here challenged those who were socially liberal yet fiscally conservative. That had been me. Many arguments were made that the socially lib / fiscally conserv view was a cop out. Of course, I took great umbrage until I read and thought and read and thought and discovered they were right. You can't, in good conscience, be both. So when I take these lovely little political tests online, I'm on the far left side.

So, I morphed.

Believe it. Don't believe it.

Mine isn't the face you have to look at in the mirror. Mine's old and looking back at me, but I am who I am and I know that old girl in the mirror - know where's she's been, where she is, and how she got here. I've never hidden who I am. Never will. And that makes that old face in the mirror not so hard to look at.

Thanks, edgar. I appreciate what you said. My daughter and her bf are going with me to the event next Wed night.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 01:22 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
Many arguments were made that the socially lib / fiscally conserv view was a cop out. Of course, I took great umbrage until I read and thought and read and thought and discovered they were right. You can't, in good conscience, be both.

Sure you can.

I'm not saying you were wrong to change your views. There is nothing at all wrong with deciding that you support a different viewpoint.

But it is possible for someone to be, in good conscience, both a social liberal and a fiscal conservative (or a social conservative and a fiscal liberal).
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 01:49 pm
@oralloy,
Here's an explanation.
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/7-things-people-who-say-theyre-fiscally-conservative-socially-liberal-dont
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 01:50 pm
Foreign press sometimes has a better grasp on reality than our US media.

Quote:
Clinton’s lead in New Hampshire and Iowa has shrunk in the past couple of weeks. Since Vermont is a neighbor state of New Hampshire, Sanders enjoys more name recognition there. The latest CNN poll in the state shows Clinton only eight points ahead of Sanders. In farther-flung Iowa, where Sanders spent Independence Day, Clinton’s lead has fallen to 19% from 45%.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/05/bernie-sanders-democratic-presidential-socialist

I am all for Bernie Sanders. He's a breath of fresh air among all these stuffy politicians who beat to the drum of their lobbyists - including Hilary Clinton.
Should Donald Trump make the Republican ticket (and as dumb as their voters are, he probably will) Bernie will leave Trump in a dust cloud.

That a man like Donald Trump can even get this far in a presidential race, says a lot about Republican supporters and voters. These are the same people who flip the channel between the Kardashian show and a Trump speech.

____

A note to Lash: I've seen you standing on the other side of political views here on a2k many moons ago. To change ones political outlook and thus your entire philosophy is not easy. I commend you for doing so and doing it openly. Screw the others who criticize you! Smile
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 02:10 pm
@CalamityJane,
Many sincere thanks, my dear. <3
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  5  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 02:29 pm

This race should be about restoring America and improving it. Not a specific candidate. Unfortunately, Bernie is the only one to recognize this simple fact.

Bernie Sanders
·
The great political struggle we now face is whether the United States retains its democratic heritage or whether we move toward an oligarchic form of society where the real political power rests with a handful of billionaires, not ordinary Americans.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 02:42 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
This race should be about restoring America and improving it. Not a specific candidate

they all have plans to make America better, some better than others, all of which are irrelevant till we the people decide that we want to work together to make America better. So long as most of our energy goes into trying to bludgeon those who dont agree with us we will never get there.

Obama's plan was to dazzle us with his brilliance then of course we will all do what he wants. Nope.

And this crop of candidates does not seem to be any more on the ball than the last several. Anyone out there who thinks that this election will matter is nuts. No matter who gets elected America will not be better, and we will become even more anti-government than we already are, actually more anti elite of all stripes. This country does not work, it will not work for the foreseeable future, and while we tend to be stupid we know that.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 02:49 pm
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/11751454_525696634245071_4376284953516314239_n.jpg?oh=d72017fa6559bea16b646cdafae1d188&oe=5650C44C
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 03:00 pm
@Lash,
I remember your morphs, Lash, admire you for them, not to gush. I've morphed on all manner of subjects myself, over time. A lot of people do, I think, though we don't always pick up that that is happening. Sometimes, for me, it has been from something a non internet friend snapped at me about, that I disagreed with and snapped back about, maybe those just being two sentences between us in total, or conversations or rants in paragraphs, depending on the subject, but sometimes those were a start of a transition. Sometimes it's just from reading reading and more reading, articles or on a2k.

I remember becoming more conservative on something, but, hah, I forget what it was now.

When I first was on abuzz and a2k, I gradually awakened to the fact that a whole lot of the world didn't think the word liberal meant anything like 'left'. More middle of road, thought of as quite tame. Different than in the U.S. I know.

I still don't know what progressive means, in its older or new usage, much less if I am one. I consider myself a lefty, certainly left of where the Democrats seem to be at now. Or maybe the Democrats have been asleep. On the other hand, I'm no authoritarian revolutionary, having as I do a batch of libertarian views in my makeup.

One of the things that rankles, to me, re a2k arguments, is the easy hurling of labels that mean different things to different people, the hurlings being made with distaste. I can understand people having different views going on.

I remember starting a thread on socialism, not sure what year, but a long time ago, wanting to know what the word was taken to mean by a variety of posters. I remember all hell breaking loose, or so it seemed to me then, and I knew less after I read most of that than I did to start with.

I've had a life of some political involvement but am on the quiet side now for regular daily life reasons. Still, I'm following all this. Bernie shares my political territory more than any other, by far. Of course I'll vote.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2015 03:10 pm
@ossobuco,
Like how we have gone 27 rounds in 8 years over what a troll is.....There is no consciousness, and few act like they want to get there.
0 Replies
 
 

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