Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 01:37 am
@revelette2,
Bobsal's link was to an honest article, not an anonymous character assassination piece. And yes, that makes a big difference.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 06:57 am
@snood,
I wasn't aware there was a blowback. However, (if true) their argument makes perfect sense to me as it was what thought all along. I don't know if it is just my computer but the site seems to have technical bugs, it shut down and reopened twice. So I don't want to copy and paste from it. However it was the part where they said it was inappropriate to invite a candidate in the midst of the election among other things.

0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 07:14 am
I did a quick google search, so far I can't any other source for Bernie possibly not going to the Vatican. I did, however learn more about it.

Quote:
Updated April 12 at 3:30 p.m., central:

U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders, who is running for the Democratic nomination for president, is officially set to speak on the first day of a Vatican conference on Pope John Paul II's 1991 encyclical, Centesimus annus​. A revised conference program shows Sanders now slotted for a 10-minute presentation Friday afternoon at the academic conference. His speech is titled, "The Urgency of a Moral Economy: Reflections on the 25th Anniversary of Centesimus Annus."

Last week, Bishop Marcelo Sanchez Sorondo, chancellor of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, which is hosting the conference, told NCR that he anticipated Sanders, originally listed as a participant and not presenter, would be given the same opportunity to speak as other politicians at the conference. Presidents Evo Morales of Bolivia and Rafael Correa​ of Ecuador will present two of the five academic papers that will guide discussion across the two days. The schedule allots 30 minutes for each paper, followed by two 15-minute responses and a 15-minute open discussion. Sanders' presentation is sandwiched between the prepared responses to Correa's paper, which is titled "Changes in the World Political Situation Since 1981."

The conference will look at political, economic and cultural changes since the release of Centesimus annus​​ -- John Paul II's own revisiting a century later of Pope Leo XIII's encyclical Rerum Novarum -- and how Catholic social teaching has engaged the world during that time and how it might do so going forward.

The original story is below:

U.S. presidential hopeful Bernie Sanders will head to the Vatican next week to take part in a small scholarly conference revisiting an encyclical from Pope John Paul II confronting economic issues. But how his invite arrived has become a point of contention.

While the independent U.S. senator from Vermont said he accepted a Vatican invitation, one of the conference's organizers charged his campaign instead lobbied for his inclusion.

Sanders told MSNBC's "Morning Joe" on Friday that he "was very moved" by the Vatican's invitation to attend the symposium.

"I am a big, big fan of the pope," he said.

But Margaret Archer, president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, which is hosting the conference, told Bloomberg News that "Sanders made the first move, for obvious reasons."

"I think in a sense he may be going for the Catholic vote but this is not the Catholic vote and he should remember that and act accordingly -- not that he will," she said.

Archer could not be immediately reached for comment.

The conference, scheduled for April 15-16 as an academic gathering of 30 participants, will place Sanders in Rome a day after a debate in New York with fellow Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton and just days before the state's April 19 primary. Roughly one-third of New Yorkers are Catholic.

A copy of the invitation sent to Sanders, obtained by NCR, is dated March 30 and signed by Bishop Marcelo Sanchez Sorondo, chancellor of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences.

Sanchez confirmed to NCR that the invitation to Sanders came from the academy and he was happy the senator accepted.

In a statement Friday, Sanchez said the academy is "delighted" to host the conference and bring together world leaders such as Sanders, Bolivian President Evo Morales and Ecuadorian President Rafael Correa, in addition to leading academic scholars, including Archer and Jeffrey Sachs of the Earth Institute at Columbia University.

The purpose, he said, is "to examine and discuss changes in politics, economics, and culture in the world these last 25 years in the light of" Pope Francis' encyclical on the environment and human ecology "Laudato Si', on Care for Our Common Home."

"Our intention is socio-political in the highest sense of the term," Sanchez said.

The chancellor told CNN that Sanders' attendance "does not signify any support for the campaign," and that the academy sought to establish a dialogue between North and South America by inviting a U.S. politician.

"I don't know what is the problem," he told NCR. "We have two presidents from Latin America, and we don't have a problem. And we have a problem because we invited one candidate to the White House of your country? It's a little impossible to understand."

The conference is focused around the 25-year anniversary of John Paul II's encyclical Centesimus annus. The social encyclical, which published May 1, 1991, revisited a century later Pope Leo XIII's encyclical Rerum Novarum on work and labor, and reapplied its teachings in the wake of the fall of the Soviet Union and in the midst of a rebuilding Eastern Europe.

Rerum Novarum is largely credited as providing the foundation of modern Catholic social teaching.

Sanchez said that the conference will similarly look at Centesimus annus in the modern context and examine areas that have changed in the last quarter century. That Sanders has discussed in his campaign the issues of exclusion, climate change and new forms of slavery -- all topics Sanchez anticipated would come up during discussion of modern problems unaddressed in John Paul's encyclical.

Sanders has concentrated his campaign largely around the issue of income inequality and principles of democratic socialism. He has pledged if elected president to reform Wall Street banks and financial institutions, raise the minimum wage nationwide to $15 an hour, and invest $5.5 billion in a youth jobs program toward creating 1 million jobs.

During the MSNBC interview, Sanders, who is Jewish, said while he and Francis disagree on areas such women's rights or gay rights, they share views when it comes to the economy.

"He has played an unbelievable role -- an unbelievable role -- of injecting a moral consequence into the economy. And here's what he is saying -- and people think Bernie Sanders is radical, uh uh, read what the pope is writing," the Vermont senator said.

Sanders explained that Francis has drawn attention to the "dispossessed," pointing to high rates of unemployed youth around the world and to elderly who struggle with a limited income.

"But you know what else he's even doing? He's talking about the idolatry of money. The worship of money. The greed that's out there. How our whole culture is based on 'I need more and more and more, and I don't have to worry about veterans sleeping out on the street, or elderly people who can't afford their prescription drugs.' And he's trying to inject a sense of morality into how we do economics," Sanders said.

The Vatican conference on Centesimus annus will be a small gathering of roughly 30 scholars. It is not open to the public. Pope Francis is not expected to attend, though Cardinal Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga, head of the pope's Council of Cardinals, will speak at the conference's opening.

The remainder of the conference will situate around the presentation of five papers. Presenters include Sachs and each of the Latin American presidents, in addition to Fr. Bryan Hehir, of the Harvard University John F. Kennedy School of Government, and José Casanova, senior fellow at the Berkley Center for Religion, Peace and World Affairs, in Washington, D.C.

Asked if Sanders might address the conference as well, Sanchez said, "I think that he needs to have the same possibility as the other political leaders." He clarified that it would have to be within the context of Centesimus annus.

According to the conference booklet, the symposium will explore two major issues: What changes have occurred in the world -- economically, politically and culturally -- in the last 25 years? And how has Catholic social teaching engaged the world during the time, and how might it best do so in coming decades?

"How ought we to think about the cultural situation today and what realities call for further reflection within Catholic social thought today to better understand the situation of ordinary people, especially the poor and marginalized?" it asked.

At least one conference attendee who spoke on background said they anticipated a "generic academic conference" but are now "queasy" how Sanders' presence, and the political overtones accompanying him, might distort a more academic reflection on the interrelationships between markets and morality.

"It's just tricky to navigate those issues, and I don't know that a politician -- any politician, not Sanders in particular -- is well equipped to navigate them in a subtle and nuanced way," the attendee said.

Sanchez told NCR that "the real consideration here is not the question of the political effect," but rather to follow the task of the academy, to give deep consideration of social and political realities in light of the magisterium of the pope.

"And to speak about politics, I think that the best solution is to have politicians," he said.

[Brian Roewe is an NCR staff writer. His email address is [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter: @BrianRoewe.]


source
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 09:16 am
@revelette2,
I really don't hold it against Bernie if he did lobby for the invitation. He grew up in New York City, like I did. Even though he's Jewish, the Catholic church is the Unofficially Official Church of New York City, at least back then, so he gets in that way. Very Happy
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 09:47 am
@revelette2,
Bernie IS going. He WAS invited by the pontifical academy. You guys love to fantacize a bit too much. Come down on earth.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 09:48 am
@Blickers,
From what I can gather in the article, the conference is not open to the public, he will speak for 10 minutes in between two others. There does seem to be some contention, but I think the president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, which is hosting the conference just said he lobbied for an invitation, made the first move, so it really is not a contradiction that he received an invitation.

I personally find the whole thing off putting for several reasons. One it is an obvious ploy for the NY Catholic votes which I hope backfires, two, he shouldn't be there since he is a US candidate in a presidential election, it gives the appearance that the Vatican support Sanders in the US presidential election. And three is that I believe strongly in the separation of church and state and what the Pope advocates for is different than what I would want a US president to advocate for.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 10:06 am
I think that if this is not the year, the next elections will be overwhelmed by Bernie and Warren style rebellion. We shall prevail, in the end.
Blickers
 
  5  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 10:10 am
@revelette2,
I grew up in New York City and all politicians, Catholic or not, showed they were completely in with the Catholic church. Plus, this new Pope especially seems to place a high value on the poor and the responsibility of those more fortunate to assist, so that there would be little conflict with Bernie's principles there. In short, this Pope is progressive about a lot of things, Bernie is progressive about a lot of things, there is a section of the meeting for world leaders to speak, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Still for Hill, but don't have a problem with this move by Bernie.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 10:13 am
@edgarblythe,
Fine by me. In four years, if Hillary gets the nomination and wins, the Reagan generation will be four years older and reduced in numbers and influence, and so more can be done. If the Republicans win, they get four more years to undo The New Deal and all the rest of the progressive legislation since. Because that is their goal, and it gets stronger all the time.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  5  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 11:12 am
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/13012818_10154725894552908_3370364852711817232_n.jpg?oh=2ef5cb23f7acb9f5a0b886a164687603&oe=57BEEEC3
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 11:19 am

Robert Reich
Just now ·
I used to think Republicans were solely responsible for the decline of our great public universities. But here in California, Democrats run the legislature and a Democrat is governor. Yet they're systematically starving the University of California, which had been the flagship public university in America. In the 1980s, 50 percent of Berkeley’s funding came from state appropriations. Now, less than 13 percent does. And there’s not even a Great Recession to justify recent cuts; state revenues are higher than what they were before the recession.
It’s a shame because the University of California is a huge engine of upward mobility. A third of my students transferred here from community colleges. Over a third are eligible for Pell Grants, meaning that they come from low-income families. (There are more Pell-grant eligible students here than in the entire Ivy League put together.) California's Democratic leaders are making a huge mistake.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 11:32 am
@Blickers,
I did have a fairly long irrelevant religious history of why I disagree. I decided it was irrelevant and too personal besides and deleted it. Suffice to say I disagree with the reasons I said previously and leave it at that. I understand you feel differently. If it wasn't a religious institution, I would agree for the reasons you mention, but it is the Vatican, you can't a more religious institution than that and it is a big deal.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 12:14 pm
@Blickers,
Quote:
In short, this Pope is progressive about a lot of things, Bernie is progressive about a lot of things, there is a section of the meeting for world leaders to speak, I don't see anything wrong with it.

I suppose there is a valid concern that the pope and more generally the catholic church should stay away from any country's elections. Which is probably why the pope's office was quick to clarify that he won't meet with Bernie.

This said, you're right the two characters are similar in many ways, and it makes sense for both of them to underline that. Both are sorts of old-style revolutionaries, softer than Trosky of course but quite radical by today's standards, and both are isolated politically in a materialistic world that idolizes the rich. It's in the interest of both to say: "Hey look! I'm not the only one saying these things."
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 12:23 pm
@edgarblythe,
I wish I could thumb that/you up more than once.
0 Replies
 
Lilkanyon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 02:08 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:


Robert Reich
Just now ·
I used to think Republicans were solely responsible for the decline of our great public universities. But here in California, Democrats run the legislature and a Democrat is governor. Yet they're systematically starving the University of California, which had been the flagship public university in America. In the 1980s, 50 percent of Berkeley’s funding came from state appropriations. Now, less than 13 percent does. And there’s not even a Great Recession to justify recent cuts; state revenues are higher than what they were before the recession.
It’s a shame because the University of California is a huge engine of upward mobility. A third of my students transferred here from community colleges. Over a third are eligible for Pell Grants, meaning that they come from low-

income families. (There are more Pell-grant eligible students here than in the entire Ivy League put together.) California's Democratic leaders are making a huge mistake.


I am in Cali too. Im not sure if politics have anything to do with the loss of funding or this drought. Maybe all the money going into firefighting the firestorms due to the drought? Up here in the rural areas of Cali we are taxed extra to cover firefighters. Idk that Cali is not just in a crunch right now.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 02:14 pm
If Lash sees this, she'll laugh and enjoy your use of Cali Cali Cali. She knows how that word gets to me, and many (I know, not all) Californians. Cali is usually used by newbies to the state, although I guess it has been proliferating.

roger
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 02:16 pm
@ossobuco,
Cali sounds like some kind of Mexican drug cartel.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 02:31 pm
@roger,
My thought exactly, except I think first of Colombia and the city, Cali... but they intermesh with Mexican cartels. Damn, I always have to look up how to spell Colombia. I keep wanting it to have a u.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 02:33 pm
@Olivier5,
Fact check: Bill Clinton and the 1994 crime bill
Robert Farley, FactCheck.org

Bill Clinton overstated the effect of the crime bill he signed in 1994 when he said, “because of that bill we had a 25-year low in crime, a 33-year low in the murder rate.” Independent analyses have found that the bill had a modest effect on crime rates.

Clinton offered his defense of the bill in response to a protester at a campaign event for Hillary Clinton in Philadelphia on April 7. In addition to Clinton’s inflated assessment of the bill’s effect on crime, we found fault with how both sides portrayed the crime bill in Clinton’s back-and-forth with the protester:

• The protester clearly yelled something about the “three-strikes” provision in the 1994 crime bill. Some in the Black Lives Matter movement have blamed that provision for mass incarceration. But that overstates the effect of the bill, as the steady trend toward increased incarceration long pre-dated the 1994 bill.

• Clinton responded by saying “90% of the people in prison too long are in state prisons and local jails,” not federal prisons. But that claim — meant to deflect responsibility for mass incarceration — goes too far in the other direction. The bill did include $8.7 billion for prison construction for states that enacted “truth-in-sentencing” laws, which required people convicted of violent crimes to serve at least 85% of their sentences.

The law at issue was the sweeping Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, which provided funding for tens of thousands of community police officers and drug courts, banned certain assault weapons, and mandated life sentences for criminals convicted of a violent felony after two or more prior convictions, including drug crimes. The mandated life sentences were known as the “three-strikes” provision.

The law is blamed by some for rising incarceration rates, though as we will explain later, that trend actually began in the 1970s. Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders — who voted for the 1994 crime bill — has frequently noted on the campaign trail, correctly, that the U.S. has, by far, the largest prison population in the world (though we have noted that his promise to correct that dubious distinction in his first term would be an almost impossibly tall order).

In a speech at an NAACP convention in Philadelphia in July, Clinton acknowledged that tougher incarceration provisions in the bill were a mistake. “I signed a bill that made the problem worse,” Clinton said. “And I want to admit it.”

Although Hillary Clinton was not in the Senate at the time and did not vote on the bill, she spoke in favor of it at the time. Asked about the law during a Democratic debate on March 6, Hillary Clinton said that “there were some aspects that worked well” including violence against women provisions, but she allowed that other portions related to increasing incarceration “were a mistake.”

[...]
Here’s how the former president responded [to BLM protesters]:

Bill Clinton, April 7: "What she’s referring to are the increased sentencing provisions of the 1994 crime bill. Ninety percent of the people in prison too long are in state prisons and local jails, more than 90%. But it’s also true that there are too many people in the state prisons, I mean the federal prisons. President Obama is trying to let them out. Here’s what happened. Let’s just tell the whole story. …

"Here’s what happened. Vice President Biden, you guys know Vice President Biden, whose family comes from Scranton. He was the chairman of the committee that had jurisdiction over this crime bill. I had an assault weapons ban in it. I had money for inner-city kids for out-of-school activities. We had 110,000 police officers, so we could put people on the street, not in these military vehicles, and the police would look like the people they were policing. We did all of that.

"And Biden said, ‘You can’t pass this bill, the Republicans will kill it if you don’t put more sentencing in.’ I talked to a lot of African American groups. They thought black lives mattered. They said, ‘Take this bill because our kids are being shot in the streets by gangs.’ We had 13-year-old kids planning their own funerals.

"She doesn’t want to hear any of that. (Clinton said, pointing at the protester.) You know what else she doesn’t want to hear, because of that bill we had a 25-year low in crime, a 33-year low in the murder rate. And listen to this, because of that and the background check law we had a 46-year low in the deaths of people by gun violence. And who do you think those lives were that mattered. Whose lives were saved that mattered?"



We’ll start with Clinton’s inflated claim that “because of that bill we had a 25-year low in crime, a 33-year low in the murder rate.”

Effect on the crime rate

Crime did drop in the years after the bill passed, as Clinton said, but he gives too much credit to the crime bill for that. Experts who have studied the impact of the law say forces independent of the law were mostly responsible for the crime drop.

A Government Accountability Office report in 2005 estimated that the 1994 crime bill resulted in 88,000 additional police officers between 1994 and 2001, and that the influx of new police officers resulted in “modest” drop in crime.

The GAO concluded that between 1993 and 2000 the Community Oriented Policing Services(COPS) funds “contributed to a 1.3 percent decline in the overall crime rate and a 2.5 percent decline in the violent crime rate from the 1993 levels.” Still, the GAO concluded, “Factors other than COPS funds accounted for the majority of the decline in crime during this period.”

What were those other factors? Increased employment, better policing methods, an aging of the population, growth in income and inflation, to name a few.

“He (Clinton) may be able to claim some credit, but the jury is very much still out on this,” John Worrall, a professor of criminology at the University of Texas at Dallas, told us via email. “Criminologists and economists are in no agreement as to the causes of the crime declines we’ve seen. Could be economic, demographic, a civilizing effect, possibly because of abortion or lead paint, tougher sentences, etc., etc. A dozen or more explanations have been offered and no one agrees.”

Worrall co-authored research published in the journal Criminology in 2007 that concluded, “COPS spending had little to no effect on crime.” But he cautioned, “Ours is one voice in a crowd. Some have found no effect. I am comfortable saying modest effect. It could not have hurt to strengthen the police presence.”

“Crime did go down through the 1990s, but nobody has shown that any of the 1994 or 1996 federal legislation was a significant cause,” Frank Zimring, a law professor at the University of California, Berkeley, who is an expert in crime trends, told us via email.

As for the effect of the law’s increased incarceration provisions, they had little effect on reducing crime according to reports we reviewed. A 2014 report on the growth of incarceration in the United States by the National Research Council concluded, “The increase in incarceration may have caused a decrease in crime, but the magnitude is highly uncertain and the results of most studies suggest it was unlikely to have been large.”

A study by the Brennan Center for Justice in 2015 found that, “Incarceration has been declining in effectiveness as a crime control tactic since before 1980. Since 2000, the effect of increasing incarceration on the crime rate has been essentially zero.”

Responsible for mass incarceration?

The protester’s complaint assumes, of course, that the 1994 crime bill was a major contributor to mass incarceration that hit the black community particularly hard. But experts say that puts too much blame on the 1994 bill.

The trend toward increased incarceration began in the early 1970s, and quadrupled in the ensuing four decades. A two-year study by the National Research Council concluded that the increase was historically unprecedented, that the U.S. far outpaced the incarceration rates elsewhere in the world, and that high incarceration rates have disproportionately affected Hispanic and black communities. The report cited policies enacted by officials at all levels that expanded the use of incarceration, largely in response to decades of rising crime.

“In the 1970s, the numbers of arrests and court caseloads increased, and prosecutors and judges became harsher in their charging and sentencing,” the report states. “In the 1980s, convicted defendants became more likely to serve prison time.”

Indeed, this trend continued with tough-on-crime policies through the 1990s as well, but to lay the blame for the incarceration trend entirely, or even mostly, at the feet of the 1994 crime bill ignores the historical trend.

“The trend of increased incarceration had already started two decades before 1994,” Jeremy Travis, the president of the John Jay College of Justice in New York, told The New York Times. Travis led federal research on crime during the Clinton administration and was an editor of the National Research Council report.

But that doesn’t mean it didn’t have any effect. Experts told us the law exacerbated the trend. And so Clinton’s defense that “90 percent of the people in prison too long are in state prisons and local jails,” rather than federal prisons, is a bit misleading. It suggests the law only affected federal prisons, and that’s not accurate.

The bill included a federal “three-strikes” provision which required mandatory life imprisonment without possibility of parole for those who commit federal violent felonies if they had two or more previous convictions for violent felonies or drug trafficking crimes. In his mea culpa in August, Clinton said that while most people are in prison under state law, “the federal law set a trend.”

The bill also had a more direct impact on state prison populations. It included $8.7 billion for prison construction to states that passed “truth-in-sentencing” laws requiring that people convicted of violent crimes serve at least 85% of their sentences. TheNew York Times at the time noted that those convicted of violent crimes served “55 percent of their sentences,” citing Justice Department data.

According to the Department of Justice, 11 states adopted truth-in-sentencing laws in 1995, one year after passage of the crime bill. By 1998, 27 states and the District of Columbia met the eligibility criteria for the truth-in-sentencing grants. Another 13 states adopted truth-in-sentencing for “certain offenders to serve a specific percent of their sentence.”

So while it may go too far to blame the 1994 crime bill for mass incarceration, it did create incentives for states to build prisons and increase sentences, and thereby contributed to increased incarceration.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/04/13/fact-check-bill-clinton-1994-crime-bill/82951450/

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2016 02:48 pm
@Olivier5,
Thanks for sharing that article. The Clintons can't be trusted to tell the truth on most things; this is only one of them. BTW, I rely on FactCheck frequently.
0 Replies
 
 

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